283 replies to this topic

[cazidin]

Fly, my pretties. Fly to Twitter and speak of your dissatisfaction of these quirks to Russ! Be mature and polite about it, of course, but they don't always read the Forums and Twitter is a more direct method for some of us.

[Zerberus]

Malleus011, on 11 March 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

The quirks are backwards because, in Battletech, the 2R's twin LRM20s make it a better bombardment vehicle than the other models which use smaller racks. However, in MWO bizarro world, multiple LRM5s are more powerful and far more dangerous than bigger, heavier weapons.

(Why is it that MWO manages to get so much of Battletech exactly backwards?)

Well, even the lowbrow WWE regularly refers to Canada as "La-La Land" when they´re there.. so maybe there´s a connection?

Edited by Zerberus, 11 March 2016 - 11:14 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Xavori, on 11 March 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

Off topic, but you do realize nobody puts PPC's on their Warhammers, right? The large pulse laser uses fewers slots, fewer tons, has more damage, and less heat. The only thing a PPC would give you is range, but the maps in MWO tend to shape fights into 300-400m battles, and the LPL rules that range.

Of course, the warhammers have plenty of non-PPC quirks that still make them excellent mechs.

Every one of my WHMs have PPCs.

If I wanted to run LPL why would I spend money on WHM pack instead of free Hoppers and Black KNights?

[Aerei]

Malleus011, on 11 March 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

The quirks are backwards because, in Battletech, the 2R's twin LRM20s make it a better bombardment vehicle than the other models which use smaller racks. However, in MWO bizarro world, multiple LRM5s are more powerful and far more dangerous than bigger, heavier weapons.

(Why is it that MWO manages to get so much of Battletech exactly backwards?)

That's fair to say, although I would argue that the "feel" of the mech, big picture, is more important than the technicalities.

As for LRM5s...it's all cooldown. For IS, this can be kind of controlled because of the hardpoint limits for certain weapons. Unfortunately, with clan omnipods, it's much, much easier to abuse smaller weapons like LRM5s simply because you can boat so many of them by mixing and matching hardpoint layouts.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

good question...

i've been preaching problems with LRMs in the hopes that someone might look at them and fix the broken parts... but its still just hope

meanwhile i nicknamed LRM20's "sandpaper lobber"

[N a p e s]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 March 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

Every one of my WHMs have PPCs.

And in the arms where they belong!

[Bishop Steiner]

N a p e s, on 11 March 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

And in the arms where they belong!

Aff.

[Roadkill]

Xavori, on 11 March 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

Off topic, but you do realize nobody puts PPC's on their Warhammers, right?

I see them all the time, so I'm not sure that "nobody" means what you think it means.

[Zerberus]

Aerei, on 11 March 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

That's fair to say, although I would argue that the "feel" of the mech, big picture, is more important than the technicalities.

I agree

Quote

As for LRM5s...it's all cooldown. For IS, this can be kind of controlled because of the hardpoint limits for certain weapons. Unfortunately, with clan omnipods, it's much, much easier to abuse smaller weapons like LRM5s simply because you can boat so many of them by mixing and matching hardpoint layouts.

Why this specific statement keeps returning every few days I will never understand.

Please name one clan mech, using any valid combination of omnipods, that can mount more than 6 missile racks of any size.

Until the Mad Dog came, 5 was the limit, the Maddog-A can run 6.

A Catapult A1 has been able to run 6 since forever and a day, and there´s a coming archer variant that can run 9.

SO, how exactly is it easier for the clans to boat small missile racks in larger numbers than the IS again?

Lasers? Yes, up to 15. ( Large) Ballistics? yes, up to 6. Missiles? No, they´re barely equal (and the racks tehmselves are widely regarded as inferior), and will soon once again be at a claer disadvantage in this respect, because the IS are the ones that keep upping the ante on number of missile hardpoints first

Edited by Zerberus, 11 March 2016 - 12:28 PM.

[Xavori]

FupDup, on 11 March 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

LPL is equal weight as the PPC, actually.

Ya, my bad. Was actually tweaking my Black Widow when I responded to you and was looking at the large laser, not LPL right before I posted

[GrimRiver]

Maybe they didn't put the quirks because the LRM20 is teh suck even with artemiss. lol

But with kidding aside it is kinda bad, but at least the quirks are weak so that means it might get a buff and end up better then if it was overquirked and got a nerf.

[Aerei]

I can concede being wrong about the hardpoint count. For the Catapault in particular, I would argue that it has 6 missile hardpoints--and only that. IS LRMs suffer from a minimal range, so people that are actually smart enough to know the value of a lower cooldown might be wary of that lower range with no backup weapons, whereas the Mad Dog's LRMs can at least do damage at close range, and if I'm remembering right, also can use a few M Lasers as backup (I don't actually own a mad dog, so I'm going with what I remember in spectator).

I suppose, at least when comparing the Mad Dog to the Catapult, possible isn't so much the correct word as practical. In team play, pure support may be alright, but unless people are queuing hard for Polar Highlands, I don't think most people can comfortably take that kind of role. At least not with the slightly more flexible Mad Dog around. The average pug lacks the structure required for efficient roles.

[Bishop Steiner]

Zerberus, on 11 March 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

I agree

Why this specific statement keeps returning every few days I will never understand.

Please name one clan mech, using any valid combination of omnipods, that can mount more than 6 missile racks of any size.

Until the Mad Dog came, 5 was the limit, the Maddog-A can run 6.

A Catapult A1 has been able to run 6 since forever and a day, and there´s a coming archer variant that can run 9.

SO, how exactly is it easier for the clans to boat small missile racks in larger numbers than the IS again?

Lasers? Yes, up to 15. Ballistics? yes, up to 6. Missiles? No, they´re barely equal (and the racks tehmselves are widely regarded as inferior), and will soon once again be at a claer disadvantage in this respect, because the IS are the ones that keep upping the ante on number of missile hardpoints first

Have always disagreed with the racks being inferior, tbh. While yes the results are inferior, on avg, considering they weigh half as much and require less crits, the actual results for weight/space is NOT inferior.

[Monkey Lover]

Zerberus, on 11 March 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

I agree

Why this specific statement keeps returning every few days I will never understand.

Please name one clan mech, using any valid combination of omnipods, that can mount more than 6 missile racks of any size.

Until the Mad Dog came, 5 was the limit, the Maddog-A can run 6.

A Catapult A1 has been able to run 6 since forever and a day, and there´s a coming archer variant that can run 9.

SO, how exactly is it easier for the clans to boat small missile racks in larger numbers than the IS again?

Lasers? Yes, up to 15. Ballistics? yes, up to 6. Missiles? No, they´re barely equal (and the racks tehmselves are widely regarded as inferior), and will soon once again be at a claer disadvantage in this respect, because the IS are the ones that keep upping the ante on number of missile hardpoints first

About time IS can do something better haha To bad it's lrms because they're almost worthless even with 9.

When I had my maddog with the 6 lrms I did better with the extra 5 energy in the arms haha

[Malleus011]

GrimRiver, on 11 March 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

Maybe they didn't put the quirks because the LRM20 is teh suck even with artemiss. lol

But with kidding aside it is kinda bad, but at least the quirks are weak so that means it might get a buff and end up better then if it was overquirked and got a nerf.

Wouldn't that kind of be a good reason to give (at least the 2R) some LRM20 specific quirks to make it not the worst possible LRM launcher in the game? Kind of like how the Warhammer 6R and Marauder 3R got major quirks to make their PPCs not total garbage?

(BTW, I run PPCs in the arms of ALL my Warhammers, like God and Kerensky intended)

[Y E O N N E]

Zerberus, on 11 March 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

Lasers? Yes, up to 15. Ballistics? yes, up to 6. Missiles? No, they´re barely equal (and the racks tehmselves are widely regarded as inferior), and will soon once again be at a claer disadvantage in this respect, because the IS are the ones that keep upping the ante on number of missile hardpoints first

Counter-point:

IS racks have to be better because they take up enough resources that, when you bring them, they have to be your primary.

Clan racks, on the other hand, are so light that they can be taken as supplemental firepower to some given laser-focused build, and so they have to be weakened in some way (generally speaking, with more spread) to prevent mass carnage.

[Sader325]

https://www.twitch.t...r325/v/53798839

[Bishop Steiner]

Aerei, on 11 March 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

I can concede being wrong about the hardpoint count. For the Catapault in particular, I would argue that it has 6 missile hardpoints--and only that. IS LRMs suffer from a minimal range, so people that are actually smart enough to know the value of a lower cooldown might be wary of that lower range with no backup weapons, whereas the Mad Dog's LRMs can at least do damage at close range, and if I'm remembering right, also can use a few M Lasers as backup (I don't actually own a mad dog, so I'm going with what I remember in spectator).

I suppose, at least when comparing the Mad Dog to the Catapult, possible isn't so much the correct word as practical. In team play, pure support may be alright, but unless people are queuing hard for Polar Highlands, I don't think most people can comfortably take that kind of role. At least not with the slightly more flexible Mad Dog around. The average pug lacks the structure required for efficient roles.

6x LRM5/4xERML/1xTAG MDD is pretty much 100% superior to 6xLRM5 Catapult.

Clan XL, better speed, back up weapons, and scaling damage under 180m, vs Hover Jets and the dubious (for LRM5s) advantage of FLD over DoT (but considering the point of chainfiring LRM5s is DoT, and how short the spread is on Clan LRM5s, from first missile to last, very dubious advantage).

Larger racks, we do see more separation, but again, half weight, scaling range, etc? Suffice it to say that Clan LRMs are not half as good as IS LRMs, thus in most cases, in a vacuum, rack v rack, are still a better investment. (Did I really argue value on LRMs just now???? )

[Navid A1]

The problem with large LRM racks are their absurd spread and cooldown (2 big negatives at the same time, while being heavier)

LRM20 = 10 tons, 5 slots, 5.5s cooldown, 6.2 m spread radius (wtf)
LRM5 = 2 tons, 1 slot, 3.25s cooldown, 3 m spread
4xLRM5 = 8 tons, 4 slots, 3.25 cooldown, 3m spread and no ghost heat.

C-LRM20 = 5 tons , 4 slots, 6.5s cooldown (WTF), 6.2m spread (wtf)
4xC-LRM5 = 1 ton, 1 slot, 3.5 cooldown and 3m spread.

Now tell me who in their right mind would go for an LRM20 when he can grab 3-4 lrm5s.
Big racks already pay the price with long cooldowns and weight. so they should have the same spread as an lrm5 (or LRM10 at max).

You are not seeing an IS AC20 fire burst shells instead of single slug... because it is balanced by its weight, velocity, cooldown and range.


I wonder if PGI checks their data to see how many players use LRM20 or not. maybe then they realize something is wrong.

[Barantor]

Navid A1, on 11 March 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

The problem with large LRM racks are their absurd spread and cooldown (2 big negatives at the same time, while being heavier)

LRM20 = 10 tons, 5 slots, 5.5s cooldown, 6.2 m spread radius (wtf)
LRM5 = 2 tons, 1 slot, 3.25s cooldown, 3 m spread
4xLRM5 = 8 tons, 4 slots, 3.25 cooldown, 3m spread and no ghost heat.

C-LRM20 = 5 tons , 4 slots, 6.5s cooldown (WTF), 6.2m spread (wtf)
4xC-LRM5 = 1 ton, 1 slot, 3.5 cooldown and 3m spread.

Now tell me who in their right mind would go for an LRM20 when he can grab 3-4 lrm5s.
Big racks already pay the price with long cooldowns and weight. so they should have the same spread as an lrm5 (or LRM10 at max).

You are not seeing an IS AC20 fire burst shells instead of single slug... because it is balanced by its weight, velocity, cooldown and range.


I wonder if PGI checks their data to see how many players use LRM20 or not. maybe then they realize something is wrong.

Be interesting to see what would happen if we reversed the numbers for spread on the 20 and the 5. Odd that the AC/20 can do 20 damage to one section because it weighs so much, but good lord don't let the LRM20 do that...