42 replies to this topic

[Thunderbird Anthares]

its a mech designed around a weapon that is terrible (LRM15/20), with difficulties to fit anything else on top of it because of how heavy and not efficient they are

yeah, i am disappoint so far

edit:
oh, and with a version that can fit so many SRMs that it turns it into equivalent of a Counterstrike shotgun

i thought this game is about big stompy robots shooting and brawling... but between the crazy Jenners and this, im not sure what is PGI trying to do... but it cant be good, because the firepower is going up in a hyperbole, and armor is not

Edited by Thunderbird Anthares, 11 March 2016 - 11:23 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Roadkill, on 11 March 2016 - 10:39 AM, said:

Streak boats are a waste regardless of their tonnage. Sure there's the occasional thread from some Light pilot crying about running into a Streakcrow and dying instantly, but they get shouted down in short order because the Streakcrow just isn't any good for anything else.

The 9M Archer will be better served by a mix of missile types. Thankfully it has the missile hardpoints to make that possible.

I agree that Streaks are generally a waste and that the 9M ARC will be better with the other missiles, but you are slightly under-valuing the damage Streaks deal when they are chosen.

Quote

LOLno

I forget, which Archer can do 6M 5E? (And don't forget that those are CLAN M and CLAN E.)

Yes, the Maddog is only 60 tons, but the weapons it carries are lighter so it doesn't need to be as heavy to do the same job. And because it's lighter, it's also faster and more maneuverable unless you're planning on cramming a 350 engine into the Archer.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Archer is going to be a fine Mech. But to say that it will be able to do LRM5 rain better than the Maddog, and with better backup weapons, is just silly.

LOLyes.

First, I can get more tonnage to play with on the ARC without making great or even noteworthy sacrifices in speed.

Second, IS LRM 5 > Clan LRM5. Fact, not opinion. Wads are superior to streams, and the wads on LRM5 home CT very well, even through twisting. More than that, this 'Mech is more durable, and although I'm not running exactly as fast (81 vs 87) I am running comparably fast with more available tonnage to play with. Agility on an LRM carrier is one of its less important attributes; it need only move fast enough to keep a favorable position. That said, most of the ARCs get agility quirks, meaning they don't even need the same run speed to have the same twist and turn.

Third, for Clan lasers, if I'm building to sync with the LRMs then I will take isLL/ERLL all day, every day, over C-ERLL. cERML don't have the reach they once did, so those are out. If we're talking about lasers for close-in defense, I will take isMPL over cMPL or cERML, because the cMPL are too hot, cERML are too slow, cERSL are no better, and cSPL are too close. While normally, yes, Clan lasers are better, in this case it isn't so because we've had to dedicate so much tonnage to ammo that we can't adequately cool the ideal lasers for defense and we can't carry a pair of cLPL to be not-garbage at long range.

And the ARC with only three missiles? You only need three LRM5 to saturate a single target with isLRM5, the six available lasers would be the primary firepower. So now you're talking about a 'Mech that will be carrying a payload focused around isLL with the ability to pound one target, continuously, with what is essentially a 6-ton UAC/5 fired on double-tap with no jamming that homes CT. With its higher tonnage and quirks, I would wager that over the MDD any day.

Even if the ARC is not out-right better at LRMs, and I think it will be, the MDD won't be superior, either. At best, it will be even. Which doesn't say too much, mind you, when it takes a 70 ton 'Mech to match a 60 ton 'Mech in this silly "tonnage balance" system PGI has going on, but there it is.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 11 March 2016 - 11:38 AM.

[Roughneck Cobra]

Mad dogs win, even if you dropped their Quirks for more missile ports, it just outright wins, only thing I'd see the Archer having as a slight balancer, is a Jumpjet or two! (If it had that option)

As for the whole argument over Packs beat streams, situational as always.

Edited by Stryker Ezekiel, 11 March 2016 - 11:44 AM.

[Barantor]

Xavori, on 11 March 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

You don't need to test. You simply look at it's quirks compared to the quirks of other existing mechs and realize it's simply cannot perform as well as those mechs. Sure, a good pilot will still be able to make it work, but if that same pilot jumped in a mech with the better quirks, they'd do better as well.

We'll see when we see, until then it is still speculation based upon numbers not stick-time. I'm not saying it is the greatest mech ever by the looks of it, I'm just saying let's not be so rash as to stamp 'DOA' on it and call it a day.

I've seen some pilots that can't pilot one mech to save their lives even thought it's 'meta' and another just fits them like a glove.

Be neat to see how it does next week.

[Bishop Steiner]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 11 March 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

its a mech designed around a weapon that is terrible (LRM15/20), with difficulties to fit anything else on top of it because of how heavy and not efficient they are

yeah, i am disappoint so far

edit:
oh, and with a version that can fit so many SRMs that it turns it into equivalent of a Counterstrike shotgun

i thought this game is about big stompy robots shooting and brawling... but between the crazy Jenners and this, im not sure what is PGI trying to do... but it cant be good, because the firepower is going up in a hyperbole, and armor is not

270 meter range and spread to heck damage, 9 SRM builds on a large, moderately slow mech? Not exactly a MetaBreaker.

And if you want to focus that damage marginally well, 150m or less, please.

On a Mech that does not (at least on cursory examination) to have particularly grand hitboxes, probably won't XL well, minimizing speed further, and is absolutely 100% useless beyond 270m.

The only reason the Splat Jenner is so effective is speed.

[Roughneck Cobra]

Cant be talking about the 2C Jenners Bishop, the ones that are running around at Heavy speeds (80-90) because they seem to have double the armour! (And rapid firing SRM Artemis)

I like the Hybrids but the Jenner IIC is just, toxic, to the point you can get entire matches with an 8man+ running them, and they'll WIN!

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 March 2016 - 11:47 AM, said:

270 meter range and spread to heck damage, 9 SRM builds on a large, moderately slow mech? Not exactly a MetaBreaker.

And if you want to focus that damage marginally well, 150m or less, please.

On a Mech that does not (at least on cursory examination) to have particularly grand hitboxes, probably won't XL well, minimizing speed further, and is absolutely 100% useless beyond 270m.

The only reason the Splat Jenner is so effective is speed.

SRM4A don't spread damage that badly.

That said, i chucked my archer pre order.

[Y E O N N E]

Oderint dum Metuant, on 11 March 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

SRM4A don't spread damage that badly.

That said, i chucked my archer pre order.

I hope you people refunding realize that all you are doing is telling PGI you won't buy 'Mechs unless they are guaranteed to be better than what's already on the field.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 March 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

I hope you people refunding realize that all you are doing is telling PGI you won't buy 'Mechs unless they are guaranteed to be better than what's already on the field.

No what we are telling them, is they need to be consistent if they want our $$.
The Archer was never going to be at the top end. It's current quirks...are just ensuring that it's not even close.

Edited by Oderint dum Metuant, 11 March 2016 - 12:21 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Oderint dum Metuant, on 11 March 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

No what we are telling them, is they need to be consistent if they want our $$.

There is nothing consistent about quirks, that's why there are so many complaints against them. Stop buying for quirks.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 March 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

There is nothing consistent about quirks, that's why there are so many complaints against them. Stop buying for quirks.

Quirks change all the time this is true, but when you release 3 previous mechs 2 with strong quirks and the 3rd with decent quirks and then the 4th with zero thought process trash quirks there is an issue.
The archer would have been fine with structure quirks and Missile quirks rather than LRM specific quirks

I don't mind the changes across time, but if im spending $$ on something, im not going to spend it on something that's handicapped from the get go.

I mean 10% Missile velocity....seriously? that 10% is meaningless on what is already very slow.

Edited by Oderint dum Metuant, 11 March 2016 - 12:29 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Oderint dum Metuant, on 11 March 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

SRM4A don't spread damage that badly.

That said, i chucked my archer pre order.

>I'm well aware of exactly how SRM4 spread as they are a primary weapon on several of my mechs. You still have a laughably short range, and when you are firing rack from that many locations on your mech, yes, you end up with spread.

That said, anyone who bought the Archer planning on it being a premier SRM chassis, was only fooling themselves the whole time, because the Cocnp'et art made it very apparent that the Hitboxes would not be great, and at 70 tons, particularly without Clan XLs, poorly protected STs, mean lack of XL and thus moderately low speed speed on large targets.

I honestly don't fathom the "wish upon a star" build process I see used by a lot of people on MWO.

[Y E O N N E]

Oderint dum Metuant, on 11 March 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

Quirks change all the time this is true, but when you release 3 previous mechs 2 with strong quirks and the 3rd with decent quirks and then the 4th with zero thought process trash quirks there is an issue.
The archer would have been fine with structure quirks and Missile quirks rather than LRM specific quirks

I don't mind the changes across time, but if im spending $$ on something, im not going to spend it on something that's handicapped from the get go.

I mean 10% Missile velocity....seriously? that 10% is meaningless on what is already very slow.

Meanwhile, I spent money on the Mist Lynx after having already bought all three original variants for C-bills...because I wanted the (I) variant.

I get that you don't want to spend money on something that's gimped, but pause and consider for a moment:

1. The Rifleman is way squishier than this 'Mech

2. The Warhammer has hard-points that are not conducive to being an effective boat without the quirks, and everything effective in this game is a boat (though I take issue with the WHM because it's roughly equivalent to the MAD in weapons, but received way better weapon quirks across the board and equally potent quirks for everything else...so the WHM might actually be over-quirked or the MAD and ARC are under-quirked)

3. Other LRM 'Mechs with similar numbers of missile hard-points, like the Catapult A1, didn't receive much better; the quirks are to offset the lack of guns as much as they are to emphasize a 'Mech's flavor. The ARC has enough weight and hardpoints that it can potentially make up for not having received cool-down or heat quirks.

4. The quirks may be improved later. That precedent has already been set.

So, it's not all terrible.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 March 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

I hope you people refunding realize that all you are doing is telling PGI you won't buy 'Mechs unless they are guaranteed to be better than what's already on the field.

Well, you will note, I am not refunding. I did the math before Quirks were released, and decided that I didn't care, still wanted. I had not anticipated better quirks, because I don't make it a habit to try to guess them, precisely because of the lack of consistency in their use to date.

I am on the other hand, leaving a "paper trail" from the get go, for when, if etc, Archer Quirks do need to be re-evaluated (Though hopefully, foolish hopefully, when Re-Scale launches, we'll get the whole dang quirk system re-evaluated, period. It's just a shame for a chassis to be resigned to probable lame duck until then)

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 March 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

Well, you will note, I am not refunding. I did the math before Quirks were released, and decided that I didn't care, still wanted. I had not anticipated better quirks, because I don't make it a habit to try to guess them, precisely because of the lack of consistency in their use to date.

I am on the other hand, leaving a "paper trail" from the get go, for when, if etc, Archer Quirks do need to be re-evaluated (Though hopefully, foolish hopefully, when Re-Scale launches, we'll get the whole dang quirk system re-evaluated, period. It's just a shame for a chassis to be resigned to probable lame duck until then)

Well, I didn't quite you when I made the post.

I'm just leaving a general statement, though, that when people refund because they think the 'Mech is gimped, PGI is possibly going to read that as players being unwilling to pay for things that don't give them an advantage.

I do appreciate the paper trail. Saves me from having to create a twitter account to do it.

[Xavori]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 March 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

I hope you people refunding realize that all you are doing is telling PGI you won't buy 'Mechs unless they are guaranteed to be better than what's already on the field.

NO!

We're telling them we want mechs AS GOOD AS current mechs. Not better. Just equivalent.

[Bud Crue]

Man what is with all the conclusions without facts or even evidence that is this thread? Not to mention the whole, lets ignore history angle? You want DOA? Remember when the Quickdraw came out? Lots of folks said It was DOA, and maybe it was. But then over time as PGI observed it, nerfed and buffed it, and changed things around -it became THEE meta mech for quite a while. Dang near every mech around has been called DOA. Most recently the IIc mechs...ya know those mechs that include the Jenner IIc that people are now saying is so OP.

My point is just that we should give it a chance, a bit of time, and maybe ya know, actually play it, before deciding it is the new Trebuchet. Just a suggestion. Carry on.

[Trauglodyte]

I love "this mech will be DOA" threads...

[wanderer]

The heck with "advantage".

I was expecting stats similar to other missile boats that currently exist.

Please. Compare it to pretty much anything that could competently carry a few LRM racks in the IS heavies.

Know what this is? BALLISTIC COOLDOWN: 15.00 % BALLISTIC VELOCITY: 30.00 % ENERGY COOLDOWN: 15.00 % MISSILE COOLDOWN: 20.00 % MISSILE VELOCITY: 10.00 % ACCELERATION RATE: 35.00 % DECELERATION RATE: 35.00 % TURN RATE: 20.00 % TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 35.00 % ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (CT): 22.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LT): 15.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 15.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LA): 11.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RA): 11.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LL): 15.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RL): 15.00

It's a frickin' Cataphract-2X and it has better stats than every single Archer. Oh, and if I go SRMs like everyone says laser/SRM brawlin should be, it's tougher and packs comparable firepower (insert AC/20 for a few medium lasers).

Again, I didn't expect superior superquirking...but I expected ones similar to everyone else. And if they're limited to a specific weapon type, I expected they'd at least be better than generic.

[Roughneck Cobra]

Just like to confirm I never said the Archer was DOA, so the whiteknights trying that angle, its just making me snicker