137 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Dont have to when the Gargoyle is not brought in comp matches due to the rules.

What makes me qualified to say something on the Gargoyles behalf? I discovered its meta build, something you clearly have not. Thats what makes me qualified. Also, im kinda good at this game. I build mechs, kick ***, and chew bubblegum. Cant argue with that.

More like I don't call anything I do 1000 damage in a meta mech.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Deathlike, on 11 March 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

I'm not really liking any massive level of laservomit on the Gargles... it has too many flaws to exploit because of that.

I think you're not understanding why it isn't used. You can build it like a better Nova... but that's back to it being a "better Nova" (Novas have their own flaws). Trying to state it is "I dunno how to build mechs" is showing how much you're not capable of discussing this particular matter.

The Executioner has a place due to high mounts in comp play... the Gargles is not even a consideration.

Well its a good thing this thread isnt about bringing the Gargoyle to comp play, we are simply comparing it to the Black Knight. I think I won that argument, so I rest my case.

Gas Guzzler, on 11 March 2016 - 07:28 PM, said:

More like I don't call anything I do 1000 damage in a meta mech.

Cool story bro

[Deathlike]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

In comp play, lets say MRBC, you would never take it. The rules benifit heavier assault mechs with more staying power and firepower.

Honestly its more the comp rules fault that the Gargoyle doesnt fit anywhere, not the actual mechs fault, because it truly is under rated.

Its a good thing I dont take MRBC seriously, honestly the tournament rules for it are kinda a simple joke.

It's not even that. You're completely overrating the mech (and I like the mech, despite its flaws). I know it's underrated, but you're giving it way more credit than it should.

The Adder for instance, is a terrible mech for the most part.

However with some of the requirkening (the current one anyways), it had a niche that it didn't serve previously. Anyone with a clue with omnipod min-maxing would find that it has really nice heat gen quirks.

The Adder's laservomit builds can actually do DPS far above something like an Arctic Cheetah (not so much the SplatJenner builds though) and running a 5 CERMED build (or 3-4 CERLL build when sniping - having almost .1 duration shaved off via quirks) is incredibly efficient (could rival the Ice Fridge for that particular role) despite not having the speed to do much. It's an easy target for Lights, but vs bigger mechs, it does a lot more work than most Lights can.

For the Gargles to be more useful, it would need more useful offensive quirks that would arguably be closer to a Black Knight as it is very difficult to make it a dakka boat (see Summoner). To say that it is capable is being disingenuous as they are not in the same league as the Black Knight (or Grasshopper for that matter)... assuming we remove restrictions in dropdeck options.

[Summon3r]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 11 March 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

An optional XL320 engine CT would do a lot for it...

Or hell... a STD320 engine CT. Both would increase free tonnage.

or how about endo ffs... wait nvm ammo quirks on the horizon cant wait to see how that pans out... makes me think of SMN mg quirks all over again

[Deathlike]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

Well its a good thing this thread isnt about bringing the Gargoyle to comp play, we are simply comparing it to the Black Knight. I think I won that argument, so I rest my case.

You have no argument. That's what's in dispute.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Deathlike, on 11 March 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

To say that it is capable is being disingenuous as they are not in the same league as the Black Knight (or Grasshopper for that matter)... assuming we remove restrictions in dropdeck options.

I am open to duels if anyone wants to challenge the meta Gargoyle with your BK/Grasshoppers. Im sure after multiple matches you will begin to understand its superiority.

Deathlike, on 11 March 2016 - 07:32 PM, said:

You have no argument. That's what's in dispute.

And what is your argument again? I forget. Oh wait, your trolling, I forgot.

[Tarogato]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

Ok ill take my clan XL400 27 DHS 42 ermed alpha at 450m and 30 ersmall alpha that I can shoot off multiple times in a brawl after I soften you up with ermeds somewhere else then. You are a fool.

Let me run my same test with your build

--- This Gargoyle: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f8af7c6db7fc375 (gets no quirks)
--- This Black Knight: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...65ec8eb530364ad (gets 10% CD and heat)

Gargies gets off 327 damage in 60 seconds when focusing on the meds @ ~450m
Gargies gets off 540 damage in 60 seconds when focusing on the smalls @ ~220m

Black Knight gets off 528 damage in 60 seconds when focusing on the large pulses @ ~440m
---- no point testing the medium lasers, because they are strictly inferior in battle.

In this case, the Black Knight wins by a land slide. The Gargies can only match (and can only barely exceed) the DPS of the BL-KNT at brawling range, but outside of brawling the BL-KNT wins.

You simply can't put cERML on Gargies... or LPL, or gauss, or anything.. else. because it just runs too hot and it's NOT worth it. But if you put on cSPL or cERSL, you are playing into the Gargies' niche and it performs VERY well at it - better than the BL-KNT.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Summon3r, on 11 March 2016 - 07:32 PM, said:

or how about endo ffs... wait nvm ammo quirks on the horizon cant wait to see how that pans out... makes me think of SMN mg quirks all over again

The meta build is already filled to the brim with DHS, endo wouldent do much honestly.

[Gas Guzzler]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

Well its a good thing this thread isnt about bringing the Gargoyle to comp play, we are simply comparing it to the Black Knight. I think I won that argument, so I rest my case.



Cool story bro

The only thing that you have proven is that your criteria for a "meta" mech is one that does damage.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Tarogato, on 11 March 2016 - 07:35 PM, said:

You simply can't put cERML on Gargies... or LPL, or gauss, or anything.. else. because it just runs too hot and it's NOT worth it.

Guess you forgot about my 27 DHS. lol you are so wrong it hurts.

Gas Guzzler, on 11 March 2016 - 07:36 PM, said:

The only thing that you have proven is that your criteria for a "meta" mech is one that does damage.

good mechs usually do good damage. thank you for confirming this fact.

Edited by Alwrath, 11 March 2016 - 07:38 PM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Im done arguing my points in this thread. Say what you want. I have created the meta build for the Gargoyle and it works well. It will beat a BK/GH in a duel. You can either listen to me, test it out for yourself FFS, or just do us all a favor and stfu. Im done. Gonna go drop in solo Q with my meta Gargoyle, cya guys later!

[Aresye]

Still waiting on that proof.
- Which comp league?
- Against which team?
- Screenshots/video would be nice too.
- Must be recent (aka: after the actual last 2 balance passes, NOT from a year ago).

Which leagues have you played, and which comp team have you played on since Dec. 4, 2015?

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Aresye, on 11 March 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

Still waiting on that proof.
- Which comp league?
- Against which team?
- Screenshots/video would be nice too.
- Must be recent (aka: after the actual last 2 balance passes, NOT from a year ago).

Which leagues have you played, and which comp team have you played on since Dec. 4, 2015?

Im a member of 42, currently participating in MRBC. I dont bring Mr. Gargles to comp matches though, sorry to dissapoint you, my team would probably have a heart attack.

[Deathlike]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 07:35 PM, said:

And what is your argument again? I forget. Oh wait, your trolling, I forgot.

If you're calling fact checking trolling, then congrats to your debating skills.

For a Black Knight, more often than not, you have your arms to shield.. and very likely placing a fair # of med lasers in the arms with the "highest" mounted hardpoints in the torsos with LPL.

In the case of the Gargles, your primary weapon source are the arms, and limited to two torso (CT) hardpoints - all of them are approximately pretty low... like the BK, but that makes your arms a liability if you wish to shield.

IS LPL is pretty beastly for brawling.. no Clan Laser outside of the CSPL or CMPL can compete for duration, and the CMPL has approximately the same range as the IS LPL. So, the optimal build to fight comparatively is to primarily build around CMPL for the most part.

The problem is that 6 CMPL isn't going to beat the primary 3 LPL+4MED builds the IS would field as the DPS is just far above what you'd like, and trying to fit more in will invoke Ghost Heat or more stare time... neither of which are ideal.

The traditional laservomit of CLPL+CERMED (of any combination) isn't what you want to use as you'll stare longer. So, this is off the table...

Inevitably while the Gargles may be #1 of the 80-tonners (debatable), it's so far inferior to whatever the Black Knight will be doing in brawling DPS. It's not really a contest, despite those builds being primarily large XL builds (~325-350). Remember that Clan lasers below the CLPL have a max range loss, so your effective CMPL max range will still be worse than the IS LPL max range.

It's really how much the Gargles has to work against (and it's not Clan Tech, it's hardpoint placement and omnimech rules) and not so much the Black Knight (quirks and all).

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

Im a member of 42, currently participating in MRBC. I dont bring Mr. Gargles to comp matches though, sorry to dissapoint you, my team would probably have a heart attack.

They should. They're not insane.

Edited by Deathlike, 11 March 2016 - 07:53 PM.

[Mechronomicon]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

Im done arguing my points in this thread. Say what you want. I have created the meta build for the Gargoyle and it works well. It will beat a BK/GH in a duel. You can either listen to me, test it out for yourself FFS, or just do us all a favor and stfu. Im done. Gonna go drop in solo Q with my meta Gargoyle, cya guys later!

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

Im a member of 42, currently participating in MRBC. I dont bring Mr. Gargles to comp matches though, sorry to dissapoint you, my team would probably have a heart attack.

Self-rekt in 8 mins.

GG Al-talk

[MischiefSC]

If you're awake in 3 hours I'm totally game for a duel of a BK vs. Gargoyle. My epeen isn't fragile, it has impressive girth to match its impressive length.

Have I postured enough? I have more.

Firepower at 300m is pretty comparable. Only question is if I can work the range of the 3lpls ahead of time to make up the armor difference. I'm no comp tradewhore but I'm comfortable I can pull off a 200m+ range advantage and figure out torso twisting with the BKS huge shield arms enough to win this one.

If not, my bad, lessons learned. I'll take this bet though.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Like I said, if anyone wants to duel BK vs my Mr. Gargles, I will show you your place on the mech pyramid.

[Tarogato]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

Guess you forgot about my 27 DHS. lol you are so wrong it hurts.

... fuсk, you're right. Gman had a stupid targeting computer in there like he always does, useless pos. Okay, I'll run it again and see how much difference we get.

... ****. I forgot keikun doesn't include the locked engine heatsinks. This might be better than I was expecting, I only had 10 external heatsinks instead of 17.


Okay, here we go.

This Black Knight ---> http://mwo.smurfy-ne...65ec8eb530364ad
This Gargoyle ---> http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4a8c4e28a39bb36


Black Knight gets off 528 damage in 60 seconds when focusing on the large pulses @ ~440m
---- MLs are bad, no point in testing.

Gargies gets off 448 damage in 60 seconds when focusing on the meds @ ~450m
Gargies gets off 650 damage in 60 seconds when focusing on the smalls @ ~220m


Black Knight wins at range because cERML are just too inefficient and not worth taking. But if the Gargies ignores the meds and only fires the smalls and is in range for the smalls, the Gargies wins. (provided the pilot can keep the smalls on target - cERSL have much longer duration than both IS LPL and ML... which is why I don't think cERSL are very good... cSPL is much better.)

Sorry, but the Gargoyle still can't do anything except brawl. It's not suited for any kinda of range work - everything about its kit screams brawl: huge engine thus fast speed and fast torso twist, huge structure quirks, massive amount of energy hardpoints with limited podspace, low and articulated mounts.

Edited by Tarogato, 11 March 2016 - 07:59 PM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

MischiefSC, on 11 March 2016 - 07:53 PM, said:

If not, my bad, lessons learned. I'll take this bet though.

You sound like an honorable mechwarrior. Challenge accepted, add me to friends. If I sound like a ***** on the forums, I really dont mean to, im actually a nice guy.

[MischiefSC]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 07:55 PM, said:

Like I said, if anyone wants to duel BK vs my Mr. Gargles, I will show you your place on the mech pyramid.

Okay. About 3 hours? I don't even have basics on my BK but I'll happily take this bet.

Obviously Boreal and Alpine are one-sided. Forest Colony? Caustic?