125 replies to this topic

[Xavori]

Since quirks are on people's minds, and it's come up in a few threads...

First, you have to understand that the Battletech source was designed by poo flinging monkeys who had to make a game that could be played inside a normal sized room in a house, preferably on top of something no larger than a kitchen or dining room table. That is why we have silly short ranged weapons, and the poo flinging monkey part is why nothing in the TT is balanced.

But in TT, you have people playing who are standing in the same room who can agree to abide by things like Clan honor, Clan reduced manpower/resources, weight restrictions, and other house rules that make the game fun for everyone. MWO does not have that luxury. MWO has to at least try to have balance because there is no way you're going to get thousands of random strangers on the internet to agree to house rules. So PGI is stuck trying to make a clan laser which is intentionally better than IS not ZOMGWTFBBQ vs IS mechs. PGI also has to convert hexes into meters. Hence quirks.

A clan ER Large Laser has 11 damage, 10 heat, 3.25 cooldown, 1.5 duration, max range 1480, and optimal range 740.
An IS ER Large Laser has 9 damage, 8 heat, 3.25 cooldown, 1.25 duration, max range 1350, and optimal range 675.
The clan laser also only uses 1 slot and 4 tons vs the IS 2 slots and 5 tons (missiles between the two are even more lopsided here).

The problem should be painfully obvious. The clan version does more damage with better range and has only a small heat penalty and a meaningless duration penalty. You can't have an online game where things are that out of balance and expect people to play anything but the good stuff.

Those weapon stats are why clan battlemechs don't get quirks at all. They already have better equipment, and they have the design freedom of IS battlemechs. They don't need buffed. Clan omnimechs don't need weapon buffs, but a few do need some movement and/or structure buffs because of fixed equipment that would otherwise leave those mechs physically weaker than post-quirk IS mechs. (Can we all agree now that poo-flinging monkeys should not be allowed to design games?)

Getting back to the ER Large Laser, the easiest balance is IS energy quirk of 10% range. That's almost right on (like within a couple meters) to balance. Damage is a bit trickier because if you just buff IS damage, then the IS weapons are better because of lower heat and duration. And you also lose any flavor between clan and IS. So instead PGI decided to balance DPS, not damage. IS energy-quirked mechs tend to get lower duration lasers that makes it easier for them to deliver their full damage potential, and they get reduced heat allowing them to fire their lasers more often. The net effect is that as a general rule, clan mechs can do better alphas, but IS mechs are better sustained brawlers (it's not an exact rule, so no dogpiling me on that).

There are some interesting things that come from quirks. First is that while Clan mechs ultimately have more freedom, espec omnimechs, IS mechs can be built into excellent specialists. Want a good laservomit brawler? Just look for energy and structure/armor quirks, but know that that mech might not be good for anything else. Want a good splat mech, the Catapult A1 jumps to mind with it's solid missile quirks, excellent structure quirks, and 6 missile hardpoints. But again, that mech really isn't good for much else (hell, it has no energy or ballistic hardpoints so it's absolute crap as a ballistic boat ) And so on.

So when the Kodiak comes out, it will likely have no quirks. It's Clan. It's a battlemech. It doesn't need them.

[Hit the Deck]

Assigning quirks have to be evaluated on Mech per Mech basis. Anything can be inherently deficient or good.

[xe N on]

Xavori, on 12 March 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

Since quirks are on people's minds, and it's come up in a few threads...


[...]

You only focus on tech. While it is true that clan tech is slightly superior to IS tech (e.g. a C-XL engine is straight out better then a IS-XL engine) there are more factors which decide if a mech is top tier or not ... namely hard-points, hitboxes, size and shape.

Edited by xe N on, 13 March 2016 - 03:24 AM.

[Curccu]

You should try IIC Highlanders and after few games in with that mech say it's good enough without quirks.

[Lorginir]

xe N on, on 13 March 2016 - 03:23 AM, said:

You only focus on tech. While it is true that clan tech is slightly superior to IS tech (e.g. a C-XL engine is straight out better then a IS-XL engine) there are more factors which decide if a mech is top tier or not ... namely hard-points, hitboxes, size and shape.

Clan tech is steadily superior to IS tech. c-XL alone shows how big tech gap is. This in particular is why game needs more IS-only tech, so there will be something to actually balance instead of one side being directly worse than the other. Not gonna happen anytime soon though =/

Curccu, on 13 March 2016 - 03:35 AM, said:

You should try IIC Highlanders and after few games in with that mech say it's good enough without quirks.

It isn't worse than IS variant, just have same problems and hint - IS Highlander sucks. Starved on hardpoints, bad hitboxes, drives like a brick. Still Highlander with clan tech >>> Highlander with IS tech.

[Khobai]

Quote

First is that while Clan mechs ultimately have more freedom, espec omnimechs

yeah not really since they cant change their engine rating or choose if they have FF/ES

[Malachy Karrde]

Curccu, on 13 March 2016 - 03:35 AM, said:

You should try IIC Highlanders and after few games in with that mech say it's good enough without quirks.

If someone buys me the highlander pack, I'll take this challenge, level it up and post screen shots of match scores etc. I bet I can get it to operate as well as a Warhawk.

[Bongo TauKat]

You get points for "poo flinging monkeys" being used multiple times in your post.

[Hit the Deck]

Malachy Karrde, on 13 March 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

If someone buys me the highlander pack, I'll take this challenge, level it up and post screen shots of match scores etc. I bet I can get it to operate as well as a Warhawk.

Is that an ilikerice bait?

[Xavori]

xe N on, on 13 March 2016 - 03:23 AM, said:

You only focus on tech. While it is true that clan tech is slightly superior to IS tech (e.g. a C-XL engine is straight out better then a IS-XL engine) there are more factors which decide if a mech is top tier or not ... namely hard-points, hitboxes, size and shape.

IS mechs have those same problems, and they don't get fixed with quirks.

[Gyrok]

Xavori, on 12 March 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

Since quirks are on people's minds, and it's come up in a few threads...

First, you have to understand that the Battletech source was designed by poo flinging monkeys who had to make a game that could be played inside a normal sized room in a house, preferably on top of something no larger than a kitchen or dining room table. That is why we have silly short ranged weapons, and the poo flinging monkey part is why nothing in the TT is balanced.

But in TT, you have people playing who are standing in the same room who can agree to abide by things like Clan honor, Clan reduced manpower/resources, weight restrictions, and other house rules that make the game fun for everyone. MWO does not have that luxury. MWO has to at least try to have balance because there is no way you're going to get thousands of random strangers on the internet to agree to house rules. So PGI is stuck trying to make a clan laser which is intentionally better than IS not ZOMGWTFBBQ vs IS mechs. PGI also has to convert hexes into meters. Hence quirks.

A clan ER Large Laser has 11 damage, 10 heat, 3.25 cooldown, 1.5 duration, max range 1480, and optimal range 740.
An IS ER Large Laser has 9 damage, 8 heat, 3.25 cooldown, 1.25 duration, max range 1350, and optimal range 675.
The clan laser also only uses 1 slot and 4 tons vs the IS 2 slots and 5 tons (missiles between the two are even more lopsided here).

The problem should be painfully obvious. The clan version does more damage with better range and has only a small heat penalty and a meaningless duration penalty. You can't have an online game where things are that out of balance and expect people to play anything but the good stuff.

Those weapon stats are why clan battlemechs don't get quirks at all. They already have better equipment, and they have the design freedom of IS battlemechs. They don't need buffed. Clan omnimechs don't need weapon buffs, but a few do need some movement and/or structure buffs because of fixed equipment that would otherwise leave those mechs physically weaker than post-quirk IS mechs. (Can we all agree now that poo-flinging monkeys should not be allowed to design games?)

Getting back to the ER Large Laser, the easiest balance is IS energy quirk of 10% range. That's almost right on (like within a couple meters) to balance. Damage is a bit trickier because if you just buff IS damage, then the IS weapons are better because of lower heat and duration. And you also lose any flavor between clan and IS. So instead PGI decided to balance DPS, not damage. IS energy-quirked mechs tend to get lower duration lasers that makes it easier for them to deliver their full damage potential, and they get reduced heat allowing them to fire their lasers more often. The net effect is that as a general rule, clan mechs can do better alphas, but IS mechs are better sustained brawlers (it's not an exact rule, so no dogpiling me on that).

There are some interesting things that come from quirks. First is that while Clan mechs ultimately have more freedom, espec omnimechs, IS mechs can be built into excellent specialists. Want a good laservomit brawler? Just look for energy and structure/armor quirks, but know that that mech might not be good for anything else. Want a good splat mech, the Catapult A1 jumps to mind with it's solid missile quirks, excellent structure quirks, and 6 missile hardpoints. But again, that mech really isn't good for much else (hell, it has no energy or ballistic hardpoints so it's absolute crap as a ballistic boat ) And so on.

So when the Kodiak comes out, it will likely have no quirks. It's Clan. It's a battlemech. It doesn't need them.

Actually...you are full of crap.

Let us pretend for a moment...

I am going to shoot you with a fire hose at full pressure.

Will you be able to spread the water better if that blasts lasts 0.5 seconds...or 1.5 seconds?

[Xavori]

Gyrok, on 13 March 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

Actually...you are full of crap.

Let us pretend for a moment...

I am going to shoot you with a fire hose at full pressure.

Will you be able to spread the water better if that blasts lasts 0.5 seconds...or 1.5 seconds?

Neither. The human body doesn't spread damage well at all, and my hitboxes are effectively interconnected meaning than when my arm is blasted with water that shoves it backwards, it drags/pushes the rest of my body with it causing me to get a concussion as I go head first into a wall.

Now if I just ignore your terrible analogy and get at the point you were trying, and failing to make, I'll point you to the third to last paragraph I wrote, specifically the sentence, "So instead PGI decided to balance DPS, not damage. IS energy-quirked mechs tend to get lower duration lasers that makes it easier for them to deliver their full damage potential, and they get reduced heat allowing them to fire their lasers more often."

In short, IS+quirks wins DPS vs Clan w/o quirks which has better alpha, and that's okay since it creates differences between the two sides.

Edited by Xavori, 13 March 2016 - 07:14 AM.

[Chados]

Xavori, on 12 March 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

Since quirks are on people's minds, and it's come up in a few threads...

First, you have to understand that the Battletech source was designed by poo flinging monkeys who had to make a game that could be played inside a normal sized room in a house, preferably on top of something no larger than a kitchen or dining room table. That is why we have silly short ranged weapons, and the poo flinging monkey part is why nothing in the TT is balanced.

But in TT, you have people playing who are standing in the same room who can agree to abide by things like Clan honor, Clan reduced manpower/resources, weight restrictions, and other house rules that make the game fun for everyone. MWO does not have that luxury. MWO has to at least try to have balance because there is no way you're going to get thousands of random strangers on the internet to agree to house rules. So PGI is stuck trying to make a clan laser which is intentionally better than IS not ZOMGWTFBBQ vs IS mechs. PGI also has to convert hexes into meters. Hence quirks.

A clan ER Large Laser has 11 damage, 10 heat, 3.25 cooldown, 1.5 duration, max range 1480, and optimal range 740.
An IS ER Large Laser has 9 damage, 8 heat, 3.25 cooldown, 1.25 duration, max range 1350, and optimal range 675.
The clan laser also only uses 1 slot and 4 tons vs the IS 2 slots and 5 tons (missiles between the two are even more lopsided here).

The problem should be painfully obvious. The clan version does more damage with better range and has only a small heat penalty and a meaningless duration penalty. You can't have an online game where things are that out of balance and expect people to play anything but the good stuff.

Those weapon stats are why clan battlemechs don't get quirks at all. They already have better equipment, and they have the design freedom of IS battlemechs. They don't need buffed. Clan omnimechs don't need weapon buffs, but a few do need some movement and/or structure buffs because of fixed equipment that would otherwise leave those mechs physically weaker than post-quirk IS mechs. (Can we all agree now that poo-flinging monkeys should not be allowed to design games?)

Getting back to the ER Large Laser, the easiest balance is IS energy quirk of 10% range. That's almost right on (like within a couple meters) to balance. Damage is a bit trickier because if you just buff IS damage, then the IS weapons are better because of lower heat and duration. And you also lose any flavor between clan and IS. So instead PGI decided to balance DPS, not damage. IS energy-quirked mechs tend to get lower duration lasers that makes it easier for them to deliver their full damage potential, and they get reduced heat allowing them to fire their lasers more often. The net effect is that as a general rule, clan mechs can do better alphas, but IS mechs are better sustained brawlers (it's not an exact rule, so no dogpiling me on that).

There are some interesting things that come from quirks. First is that while Clan mechs ultimately have more freedom, espec omnimechs, IS mechs can be built into excellent specialists. Want a good laservomit brawler? Just look for energy and structure/armor quirks, but know that that mech might not be good for anything else. Want a good splat mech, the Catapult A1 jumps to mind with it's solid missile quirks, excellent structure quirks, and 6 missile hardpoints. But again, that mech really isn't good for much else (hell, it has no energy or ballistic hardpoints so it's absolute crap as a ballistic boat ) And so on.

So when the Kodiak comes out, it will likely have no quirks. It's Clan. It's a battlemech. It doesn't need them.

Well said, sir.

[Gyrok]

Xavori, on 13 March 2016 - 07:14 AM, said:

In short, IS+quirks wins DPS vs Clan w/o quirks which has better alpha, and that's okay since it creates differences between the two sides.

Except that you stated in your initial phrasing that duration was pointless.

Additionally...you also ignore the fact that IS laser alphas are much easier focused on a single component.

Furthermore, unless you are hiding under a rock...the IS has bigger alphas than Clans.

BK has a 58 alpha, 63 if you want to get crazy, and can do it two to three times. TW is typically 54, maybe 61 (and it is ridiculously hot) and can barely get 54 off twice, forget 61 back to back.

Are you seeing the trend, here?

Are you picking up what I am putting down, yet?

Are you seeing the writing on the wall?

Are the numbers clicking for you yet?

IS lasers > Clan lasers.

Anyone who glances at the numbers, and plays the mechs briefly can tell you that.

EDIT: The only advantages clans have at the moment is mobility, and though it is all but worthless outside of comp, a fair range advantage on the extreme end of things. IS mechs with super structure quirks are significantly tougher than any clan mech, IS lasers are better, IS SRMs are better, IS Ballistics are better. Clan streaks are better because bigger launchers...and LRMs are worthless no matter who brings them.

Edited by Gyrok, 13 March 2016 - 07:58 AM.

[STEF_]

Lol, everytime a IS purist comes here to write something... he always remember to write the good points about clan, but always forget (or pretend to forget) to write about the bad points about clan weaponry.

Let's pretend you are a noob (you aren't cause he's playing from 2012).

So I can help you remembering to you that C-erLL has also higher duration, which is bad 'cause you can spread dmg all over the place in enemy mech. (LOL, "meaningless you say" LOLOL. C-erLL is the worst weapon, lrm aside)
I can help you remembering to you that C-erLL has ghost heat when more that 2, meanwhile IS 3. So even more hot, or even more spreading with chainfire, or grouping 2+1
I can help you remembering to you that C-DHS is less efficient than IS ones
(but maybe, being a IS purist you haven't even noticed that, because you don't pilot easy mode clan mech, right?)


Also, this thing of IS purist writing on forum about IS/Clan mech is becoming soooooooooooo ridicolous and annoying, see MechRegSh's threads.

What is your point in your thread?
Are you saying that bad clan mechs aren't needing any quirks, and clanners are forced to pilot 3-4 good mechs only?
Are you saying that it's not true that a lot of clan mechs are bad?
Are you asking for more range when there are already IS mechs with energy range quirks more than 10%?

((I'm glad to be a merc, so I can see the differences, appreciate the good points in both sides, and see the bad stuff in both sides.))

[Y E O N N E]

Xavori, on 13 March 2016 - 06:48 AM, said:

IS mechs have those same problems, and they don't get fixed with quirks.

Yes they do.

The Hunchback was one of the very first 'Mechs to receive quirks, along with the Awesome. The quirks were increases to durability on the right torso...the place where the guns sit and where everybody aims, knocking the 'Mech out of the fight in seconds. The Awesome got durability to its sides, since it had a similar but symmetrical problem.

When weapon quirks hit, they were placed not only for flavor, but as indirect buffs to offset hard-point or geometry deficiencies (logic being if you can fire from further away or be more dangerous up close, your durability will be less threatened). Locust 1V and Spider 5V get some pretty potent cool-down quirks because otherwise the required exposure to do damage gets them killed before that damage gets out. They also get shorter laser duration to reduce exposure, making each individual hit-point carry farther.

While I think trying to indirectly off-set the geo deficiencies with weapon quirks is less than optimal, it is still a thing and it does work.

Stefka Kerensky, on 13 March 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:

So I can help you remembering to you that C-erLL has also higher duration, which is bad 'cause you can spread dmg all over the place in enemy mech. (LOL, "meaningless you say" LOLOL. C-erLL is the worst weapon, lrm aside)
I can help you remembering to you that C-erLL has ghost heat when more that 2, meanwhile IS 3. So even more hot, or even more spreading with chainfire, or grouping 2+1
I can help you remembering to you that C-DHS is less efficient than IS ones
(but maybe, being a IS purist you haven't even noticed that, because you don't pilot easy mode clan mech, right?)

.

22 damage for 8 tons with 7.33 dam/tick per laser vs. 27 damage for 15 tons with 7.2 dam/tick.

Actually isn't awful, as long as you are playing out to the appropriate range. The isERLL is more flexible, but is a similarly daft option up close. While it was OP when poking out to 900 meters before drop-off, the reduction in range quirks has done a lot to normalize the two. Besides, an unquirked isERLL competes more directly with the cLPL...where it's 26 damage for 12 tons with 11.6 dam/tick per laser vs. 27 for 15 and 7.2 dam/tick.

cDHS are not less efficient. They get slightly lower cap, but also slightly more dissipation. The impact to cap is negligible if you do the math, and actually ends up favoring the Clans because dissipation is more powerful per point than cap.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 13 March 2016 - 08:30 AM.

[xe N on]

Xavori, on 13 March 2016 - 06:48 AM, said:

IS mechs have those same problems, and they don't get fixed with quirks.

Fully correct. You can't fix e.g. a Spider-5V by quirks ... the same goes for clan tech. Imagine a Spider-5V with clan tech. It still would suck.

Your argument was, that clan battlemechs get no quirks because of clan tech. My argument is, that clan tech is too much emphasized when it comes to balance.

I don't see Highlander 2C, Orion 2C, Hunchback 2C or Jenner 2C dominate the battlefield. Infact 50% of them are badly under powered. That cleanly shows that other factors are outweighing the clan advantages.

Edited by xe N on, 13 March 2016 - 08:39 AM.

[Xavori]

xe N on, on 13 March 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

Fully correct. You can't fix e.g. a Spider-5V by quirks ... the same goes for clan tech. Imagine a Spider-5V with clan tech. It still would suck.

Your argument was, that clan battlemechs get no quirks because of clan tech. My argument is, that clan tech is too much emphasized when it comes to balance.

I don't see Highlander 2C, Orion 2C, Hunchback 2C or Jenner 2C dominate the battlefield. Infact 50% of them are badly under powered. That cleanly shows that other factors are outweighing the clan advantages.

Want me to list all the IS mechs you don't see very often?

Btw, I'm not an IS purist.

I started in Jade Falcon. But when CW, Kcom, 228, etc all bailed, no point in staying as it was nothing but getting roflstomped in Jade PUG vs IS units.

I'll be in Razzy Hags until Kodiak hits, and then I'm totally going Ghost Bear and pretend that we just jumped way ahead into the future where the teddy bears and vikings merged

[xe N on]

Xavori, on 13 March 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:

Want me to list all the IS mechs you don't see very often?

That's not in question. However, there is only not a difference to clans. As you can make a list of IS mechs underrepresented, I can make a List of clan mechs that is currently played. And this list is short.

PS: Quirks won't fix a broken mech. It just blur the fail design and may even create new balance problems.

Edited by xe N on, 13 March 2016 - 08:48 AM.

[Xavori]

xe N on, on 13 March 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

That's not in question. However, there is only not a difference to clans. As you can make a list of IS mechs underrepresented, I can make a List of clan mechs that is currently played. And this list is short.

Quirks won't fix a broken mech. It just blur the fail design and may even create new balance problems.

Which kinda is my point.

You can balance weapons and equipment between IS and Clans by giving IS quirks.

You cannot really balance mech hitboxes, hardpoints, etc. with quirks without introducing serious power creep.