66 replies to this topic

[Remillard]

Any new mock-ups?

[sycocys]

Honestly roles are kind of pointless if they aren't seperated per chassis.

[InspectorG]

Alardus, on 13 March 2016 - 10:46 PM, said:

There are other mech games out there which allow this RPG like customizing. MWO currently holds a more unique place. It would not only be bad business but bad for people that want to play battletech, not an RPG game skinned with BT shapes.

I would take the skill tree another direction with mutually exclusive choices.

Currently, and against its intended concept particularly for CW, a player's only role in MWO is: Do Damages.

Doesnt need to be RPG but i would like scouting, proper LRMing(gasp), better objectives, .../etc.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Remillard, on 15 March 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

Any new mock-ups?

Coming soon! Was hoping to have it made last night but ran out of time. Should have time tonight. I wrote out the layout today at work so it should be pretty quick.

sycocys, on 15 March 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

Honestly roles are kind of pointless if they aren't seperated per chassis.

How do you mean?
I have roles separated per-weight class. 3 roles per weight class (even though support is the same between Light, Medium and Heavy, they can offer different things. My example is example only).

I think what you mean is that a Jenner should perform a different role than a Raven?
In that case, that is partially the reason why you have 3 role options available to choose from. I don't expect every light chassis, or even every variant within that chassis, to be able to fit perfectly with each role. They might, depending on how PGI balances each mech and the loadout the player chooses, but I don't think you'll see many Sniper missile boats

The mock-up i make tonight will kind of explain this.

[sycocys]

MoonUnitBeta, on 15 March 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

How do you mean?

I mean locking the roles to the variant line instead of chassis actually breaks the point of some mechs in the line.
Most Commandos are meant to be brawlers - the 2D is far better suited to be a scout.
Same with the Griffins until you hit the 2N, which is far better at supplying a forward information role.

Many of the lines have outliers that would be really hurt if you forced roles onto that specific chassis, and some are down the middle and could go either way for most mechs that if you only had one role choice it would really hurt the ability to play the other mechs that have setups that lean towards other roles on the field. Hunchbacks, TDR's, TBR (well most omni-mechs really because they are crazy variable), Maulers and so forth all have mechs that can build into multiple roles - locking them into one across the board hurts the individual chassis ability to shine at what they can do better than the others.

[Cabusha]

I remember a flow chart vaguely resembling this from the Dev way back in CB when the piloting skills were first implemented as a "proof of concept" and "temporary."

4 years later, the concept skills are still there and pinpoint doesn't do jack ****.

[MoonUnitBeta]

sycocys, on 15 March 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

I mean locking the roles to the variant line instead of chassis actually breaks the point of some mechs in the line.
Most Commandos are meant to be brawlers - the 2D is far better suited to be a scout.
Same with the Griffins until you hit the 2N, which is far better at supplying a forward information role.

Many of the lines have outliers that would be really hurt if you forced roles onto that specific chassis, and some are down the middle and could go either way for most mechs that if you only had one role choice it would really hurt the ability to play the other mechs that have setups that lean towards other roles on the field. Hunchbacks, TDR's, TBR (well most omni-mechs really because they are crazy variable), Maulers and so forth all have mechs that can build into multiple roles - locking them into one across the board hurts the individual chassis ability to shine at what they can do better than the others.

Oh, I see.
More than a few people are thinking this too.
I found some things I've said that are suggesting that you choose the role for the entire Chassis, not the Variants, and this wasn't intended. Original intent is that you choose the variants role. The only importance that the Chassis had is that unlocking a Role simply lets you use it across all variants in that Chassis, but I worded it weird and used the word Chassis too much haha.

I've edited the main picture (not yet posted), and I'm in the middle of creating another mock up that kind of goes through the process step-by-step to clear up any issues.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 15 March 2016 - 09:47 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 14 March 2016 - 03:29 AM, said:

[snip]

Bud Crue, on 14 March 2016 - 03:54 AM, said:

[snip]

Khobai, on 14 March 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

[snip]

Remillard, on 15 March 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

Any new mock-ups?

sycocys, on 15 March 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

[snip]

I quoting you because I updated the OP with a new image to hopefully clear up confusion that led you to think that an entire chassis were locked into a role.

I hope it helps.

Let me know if it doesn't though.

[Coryphee]

Thread has been moved to "Suggestions" forum.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Coryphee, on 16 March 2016 - 01:37 AM, said:

Thread has been moved to "Suggestions" forum.

Aww, bummer.
RIP.
Was hoping to get more feedback on the updated image before this happened. Ah well.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Bump for exposure.

[Karl Streiger]

MoonUnitBeta, on 13 March 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

So beautiful - and i had a similar idea while back but missing the skill to present them in a fashion, so didn't at all.
Awesome
BattleMaster

anyhow a system like this PLUS the BWO BV for MM and this game will become beauty again

Edited by Karl Streiger, 21 April 2016 - 11:18 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Karl Streiger, on 21 April 2016 - 11:17 PM, said:

So beautiful - and i had a similar idea while back but missing the skill to present them in a fashion, so didn't at all.
Awesome
BattleMaster

anyhow a system like this PLUS the BWO BV for MM and this game will become beauty again

Thanks!
Yeah, hopefully this gains some decent traction before they finalize on the new skill tree… I feel pretty strongly about this idea. I don’t think it’s just a one off idea that was conceived in 30 seconds from a singular disgruntled moment while in-game. I believe it’s a legitimate idea, and so far, haven’t heard of any real downsides to invalidate it either. So hopefully we can get something like it.

BV would be a nice addition for sure!

[Draco Argentus]

I think it's a great idea. Will it need adjusting? Absolutely - but as the OP says, just an example.

I bought the Elite Founder for the Catapult - intending that it would be the only Catapult I would ever own. As the skills are currently implemented, I'm being gimped for the crime of Specialization.

This plan opens up all manner of opportunities. . . one might, for example, Specialize (Master) his K-2 for sniping, and perhaps add the Basic perk from reaching Rank 5 in Support (but only be able to add the Basic and only from 1 of the remaining two categories, again to prevent cookie-cutter skills/perks or overpowered setups).

I see this idea as increasing possibilities, not limiting them the way the current skilltrees do. . .

[MoonUnitBeta]

Gondar, on 22 April 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

I think it's a great idea. Will it need adjusting? Absolutely - but as the OP says, just an example.

I bought the Elite Founder for the Catapult - intending that it would be the only Catapult I would ever own. As the skills are currently implemented, I'm being gimped for the crime of Specialization.

This plan opens up all manner of opportunities. . . one might, for example, Specialize (Master) his K-2 for sniping, and perhaps add the Basic perk from reaching Rank 5 in Support (but only be able to add the Basic and only from 1 of the remaining two categories, again to prevent cookie-cutter skills/perks or overpowered setups).

I see this idea as increasing possibilities, not limiting them the way the current skilltrees do. . .

Huh! That's a neat idea!
If negative "quirks" are part of these roles, perhaps any negative quirks from the Rank 5 basic role are doubled. Giving you the option to take either Brawler or Support Rank 5, granting you the benefits you want, but potentially requiring you to invest a larger sacrifice from something else. Or the other option is not to use any perks at all.

Interesting take on it.
Maybe also in order to take a perk from other roles, your primary role needs to be mastered first. I think it would be cool if it could be balanced and should definitely be explored. The only downside is that it might make certain builds too excessive. Unless PGI is smart about the perks to avoid synergizing/stacking bonuses to achieve ludicrous builds.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 22 April 2016 - 10:41 AM.

[MauttyKoray]

I like this idea, especially the option of swapping between the roles but not having them all active at the same time.

Howevever, I would recommend keeping the skills/roles locked per variant, but also not requiring each role to be unlocked at each level to progress. Instead, a single variant could entirely level a single role without needing to (but still being able to) in its entirety.

[Death Proof]

Looks good. Ship it.


Seriously though, nice mockup and design concept. I'd have no problem with them going in a route similar to this.

[Draco Argentus]

I'm thinking, give each 'Mech a maximum of 4 levels of mastery. (expanding on my above posting)

One might either:
A. Master one skill and Basic a second.
B. Elite 2 skills.
C. Elite one skill and basic the other two.

This gives (as I see it) the broadest range of customization without being too OP, and does the most to eliminate "cookie-cutter" builds.

Using the K2 as an example (again, sheesh, really?) The pilot could Elite Sniper, and Basic Brawler and Support, earning the perks thereof.
Or, he could Master Sniper, Basic either Brawler or Support.
Or. . . Elite Sniper and Elite Brawler (or elite support, or elite brawler and elite support)

[Elendil]

Just on principle I don't like mechanics that codify roles and restrict how you play, and this does that...
And I really don't like the fact that the trees are restricted based on the class of mech (for example, what if I wanted my hunchback to be a sniper? That's a heavy skill tree, and he's a medium...)

I'm a compulsory min/maxer (even though I hate doing it), and I hate mechanics that encourage it because I then have to take advantage of them.

The only way I'd support this system is if:

• The trees were cut down to 3 or 4 and made more generalized, and it was based on variants rather than classes.
  
• Then I think it should be re-fluffed to be based on the actual pilot. Say, earning XP on one Jenner variant would increase the pilot's spotting skill in all Jenners, and earning XP with another variant would increase his brawling skill with all Jenners, etc. That way you'd still be encouraged to level a few variants, and wouldn't be restricted and forced to choose one role at a time.
  
• Maybe make a capstone skill that's a tiny buff to all mech piloting, based on what kind of mech it was. That would encourage you to level every type of mech, as well as the variants, and also allow you to focus just on a particular kind (like, all the mechs that give energy buffs as capstone skills, etc.)
  
• You could even have 2 pilots: one for Clan, one for IS.

Edited by Elendil, 02 May 2016 - 04:02 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Elendil, on 02 May 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

Just on principle I don't like mechanics that codify roles and restrict how you play, and this does that...
And I really don't like the fact that the trees are restricted based on the class of mech (for example, what if I wanted my hunchback to be a sniper? That's a heavy skill tree, and he's a medium...)

You can still play your Hunchback as sniper - you simple don't get a bonus.
Or just taking the bad RL comparison:
of course you can take a Fiat 500, paint it read and put a ferrari V12 F1 engine into its rear. Even if you survive the acceleration you are still not able to drive a Formula 1 race.

Maybe you don't have to link the role to the class but you should link it to the Mech. Even when the Hunchback can be armed with LRMs and AC5s - it was still designed with one specific role - to share and to gain the love in close quarter combat.

So when you want to play a Sniper Medium - take the Vindicator or wait for the Hollander II

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 May 2016 - 11:29 PM.