365 replies to this topic

[Novakaine]

Confirmed Cheater, on 19 March 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:

I'm not talking about restriction to opening mechlab. I'm talking about restriction to deploy in a mech that mounts LRMs in his current loadout.

Really can we get one for lazor boys also?
That's just plain dumb you should feel bad.
New player butthut how sad.

Edited by Novakaine, 19 March 2016 - 12:26 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roadkill, on 19 March 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

I gave it 30 seconds of thought and managed to come up with replacements:

Radar Derp -> Targeting Counter Measures
A Mech equipped with Targeting Counter Measures requires twice as long to be acquired by a missile targeting lock.

Advanced Target Decay -> Advanced Targeting System
A Mech equipped with Advanced Targeting System obtains missile locks twice as quickly.

There, replaced 'em for you PGI.

Great.

More "work".

You know every extra step, no matter how minor, walks any idea that much further away from any chance of being implemented.

[Wolfways]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 March 2016 - 06:28 AM, said:

Or if they were fast enough that the only time you got significant window to do anything with the warning info is when those LRMs were fired from more than 600 meters away.

Most players who know what they're doing are only a couple of seconds away from cover though. LRM's still wouldn't be long range.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I am curious what peoples' standards of measure are for effectiveness.

A single LRM15 weighs 1 ton less and takes up one less slot than a AC/5, but generates a little more Heat. They both use a single hardpoint and are both ammo-dependent.. So, a single LRM15 should be about as useful as a single AC/5, despite being rated for 3x damage.

Is that about right?

Edited by Prosperity Park, 19 March 2016 - 02:40 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 19 March 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

I am curious what peoples' standards of measure are for effectiveness.

A single LRM15 weighs 1 ton less and takes up one less slot than a AC/5, but generates a little more Heat. They both use a single hardpoint and are both ammo-dependent.. So, a single LRM15 should be about as useful as a single AC/5, despite being rated for 3x damage.

Is that about right?

Sure. Of course, how do you measure that? Range. RoF. Actual aiming mechanics. Counters. Ammo consumption. Damage concentration.

Minimum range, ease of aiming (aka, not point click done, but having to wait multiple seconds for lock, hold lock, ease of breaking lock, etc), damage focus and ability to aim for individual sections, number of counters make the LRM15 miles weaker than the AC5.

Heck, factor in the amount of time needed to acquire a lock even the on paper DPS becomes a sham.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 March 2016 - 02:50 PM.

[Xavori]

Prosperity Park, on 19 March 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

I am curious what peoples' standards of measure are for effectiveness.

A single LRM15 weighs 1 ton less and takes up one less slot than a AC/5, but generates a little more Heat. They both use a single hardpoint and are both ammo-dependent.. So, a single LRM15 should be about as useful as a single AC/5, despite being rated for 3x damage.

Is that about right?

So I have this Archer 2R with 3xLRM10 + Artemis. I'm a very good LRM pilot.
http://images.akamai...89CA9239F246BE/
http://images.akamai...3352DB7D190B02/

The LRM's are by far the hardest to use weapons in the game because PGI has thrown up as many obstacles as they possibly can short of just flat out nerfing their damage. You have to lock your target, then you fire, then you hold lock waiting on the slowest projectile in the game, you have to have a target that doesn't put a wall or mountain in the path, and you have not get dead while waiting on all of the above.

Going to the above screenshots of a match where I carried my team in my LRM Archer, if I'd been in one of my Warhammers or my Atlas, I might very well have pulled 1500 to 2000 damage and picked up a few more kills. It'd have been a pretty dramatic improvement.

[wanderer]

Prosperity Park, on 19 March 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

I am curious what peoples' standards of measure are for effectiveness.

A single LRM15 weighs 1 ton less and takes up one less slot than a AC/5, but generates a little more Heat. They both use a single hardpoint and are both ammo-dependent.. So, a single LRM15 should be about as useful as a single AC/5, despite being rated for 3x damage.

Is that about right?

Actually, it generates five times the heat as the AC/5 and the AC gets off roughly 3 shots to the LRM's one in the same period of time- including lock time, the AC actually does get 3 shots vs. the LRM's one, possibly 4 depending on distance given missile travel time. Of course, the LRM technically delivers 15 damage, so 3 AC/5 shots is about equal.

Oh, and it outranges the LRM to boot and delivers it's full damage to the same spot, while the LRM automatically misses with part of it's damage and scatters the rest.

Fair and balanced, right?

[Strength Damage Cliff Racer]

wanderer, on 19 March 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

Actually, it generates five times the heat as the AC/5 and the AC gets off roughly 3 shots to the LRM's one in the same period of time- including lock time, the AC actually does get 3 shots vs. the LRM's one, possibly 4 depending on distance given missile travel time. Of course, the LRM technically delivers 15 damage, so 3 AC/5 shots is about equal.

Oh, and it outranges the LRM to boot and delivers it's full damage to the same spot, while the LRM automatically misses with part of it's damage and scatters the rest.

Fair and balanced, right?

You "forgot" two biggies — you can torso twist the hell out of them (Unless we talk about Mauler 5xAC5) and AC operator have to "stare" for these 3 shots.

[Bishop Steiner]

Confirmed Cheater, on 20 March 2016 - 12:01 AM, said:

You "forgot" two biggies — you can torso twist the hell out of them (Unless we talk about Mauler 5xAC5) and AC operator have to "stare" for these 3 shots.

you can twist between shots.

[RestosIII]

Confirmed Cheater, on 20 March 2016 - 12:01 AM, said:

You "forgot" two biggies — you can torso twist the hell out of them (Unless we talk about Mauler 5xAC5) and AC operator have to "stare" for these 3 shots.

Unless you're pretty good with separate arm control, you also have to stare as an LRM mech to hold the lock, and LRMs are pretty much the easiest thing in the world to spread damage against.

Edited by RestosIII, 20 March 2016 - 12:19 AM.

[Strength Damage Cliff Racer]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2016 - 12:15 AM, said:

you can twist between shots.

Except that "twist between shots" prevents you from precise fire with torso mounts due to how twist works.

RestosIII, on 20 March 2016 - 12:18 AM, said:

Unless you're pretty good with separate arm control, you also have to stare as an LRM mech to hold the lock, and LRMs are pretty much the easiest thing in the world to spread damage against.

Holding giant circle touching the big rectangle with 0.5-3.25 second linger != holding a point leading target with 1-2 degree turns. Your chair and carrier truck both got wheels, but it doesn't mean that you can handle the truck.

[Satan n stuff]

Confirmed Cheater, on 20 March 2016 - 03:22 AM, said:

Except that "twist between shots" prevents you from precise fire with torso mounts due to how twist works.

Holding giant circle touching the big rectangle with 0.5-3.25 second linger != holding a point leading target with 1-2 degree turns. Your chair and carrier truck both got wheels, but it doesn't mean that you can handle the truck.

That argument would work if you were talking about lasers, but it really isn't that hard to shoot accurately with torso mounted ballistics while torso twisting without losing a significant amount of DPS. Especially not at the ranges where LRMs and AC/5s are most commonly used.

[Navid A1]

Prosperity Park, on 19 March 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

I am curious what peoples' standards of measure are for effectiveness.

A single LRM15 weighs 1 ton less and takes up one less slot than a AC/5, but generates a little more Heat. They both use a single hardpoint and are both ammo-dependent.. So, a single LRM15 should be about as useful as a single AC/5, despite being rated for 3x damage.

Is that about right?

Since you are comparing apples to oranges... have a look at these:

- I don't see AC5 projectiles travelling at 160 m/s
- There are no modules nullifying AC bullets
- AC5s do damage below 180 m
- AC5s fire 3 times faster (and precisely to a single location at that)
- AC5s do not reveal your exact location
- And most importantly... you don't see ACs fire in bursts as the caliber goes up. But you do see more spread with LRMs (which makes no freakin sense in any universe)

Lets not compare things that have no similarity in concept.

Edited by Navid A1, 20 March 2016 - 06:34 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 19 March 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

I am curious what peoples' standards of measure are for effectiveness.

A single LRM15 weighs 1 ton less and takes up one less slot than a AC/5, but generates a little more Heat. They both use a single hardpoint and are both ammo-dependent.. So, a single LRM15 should be about as useful as a single AC/5, despite being rated for 3x damage.

Is that about right?

Bishop Steiner, on 19 March 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

Sure. Of course, how do you measure that? Range. RoF. Actual aiming mechanics. Counters. Ammo consumption. Damage concentration.

Minimum range, ease of aiming (aka, not point click done, but having to wait multiple seconds for lock, hold lock, ease of breaking lock, etc), damage focus and ability to aim for individual sections, number of counters make the LRM15 miles weaker than the AC5.

Heck, factor in the amount of time needed to acquire a lock even the on paper DPS becomes a sham.

Xavori, on 19 March 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

So I have this Archer 2R with 3xLRM10 + Artemis. I'm a very good LRM pilot.
http://images.akamai...89CA9239F246BE/
http://images.akamai...3352DB7D190B02/

The LRM's are by far the hardest to use weapons in the game because PGI has thrown up as many obstacles as they possibly can short of just flat out nerfing their damage. You have to lock your target, then you fire, then you hold lock waiting on the slowest projectile in the game, you have to have a target that doesn't put a wall or mountain in the path, and you have not get dead while waiting on all of the above.

Going to the above screenshots of a match where I carried my team in my LRM Archer, if I'd been in one of my Warhammers or my Atlas, I might very well have pulled 1500 to 2000 damage and picked up a few more kills. It'd have been a pretty dramatic improvement.

wanderer, on 19 March 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

Actually, it generates five times the heat as the AC/5 and the AC gets off roughly 3 shots to the LRM's one in the same period of time- including lock time, the AC actually does get 3 shots vs. the LRM's one, possibly 4 depending on distance given missile travel time. Of course, the LRM technically delivers 15 damage, so 3 AC/5 shots is about equal.

Oh, and it outranges the LRM to boot and delivers it's full damage to the same spot, while the LRM automatically misses with part of it's damage and scatters the rest.

Fair and balanced, right?

Navid A1, on 20 March 2016 - 06:33 AM, said:

Since you are comparing apples to oranges... have a look at these:

- I don't see AC5 projectiles travelling at 160 m/s
- There are no modules nullifying AC bullets
- AC5s do damage below 180 m
- AC5s fire 3 times faster (and precisely to a single location at that)
- AC5s do not reveal your exact location
- And most importantly... you don't see ACs fire in bursts as the caliber goes up. But you do see more spread with LRMs (which makes no freakin sense in any universe)

Lets not compare things that have no similarity in concept.

And you note...no rebuttal.

Because as you said, it's apples to oranges, not peas and carrots.

Satan n stuff, on 20 March 2016 - 06:10 AM, said:

Is there an actual argument in there somewhere?

Obviously not.

BTW, thanks for posting it in a more concise and clear manner than I was mentally able to at the time, lol.

Just another dude with an opinion and a bias that colors any chance at objective reasoning. More of the usual "click a pixel is the only skill" drivel.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 March 2016 - 08:20 AM.

[Mead]

Apples and oranges are both fruits. Maybe comparing apples to murder would be a better comparison?

[Bishop Steiner]

Mead, on 20 March 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

Apples and oranges are both fruits. Maybe comparing apples to murder would be a better comparison?

Bipolar, OCD and Sociopathy are all mental disorders.

Does not make comparing one to the other particularly useful.

[Xavori]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

Bipolar, OCD and Sociopathy are all mental disorders.

Does not make comparing one to the other particularly useful.

Which one of them leads to 35k+ forum posts?

[Bishop Steiner]

Xavori, on 20 March 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

Which one of them leads to 35k+ forum posts?

B and C

And Aspergers.

But mostly B.

And actual free time. Jealous?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 March 2016 - 09:59 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

B and C

And Aspergers.

But mostly B.

And actual free time. Jealous?

Bishop can i barrow maybe 10k posts please?

[Gorgo7]

Still hoping the Dev's take another look at LRM's...