73 replies to this topic

[Paigan]

Bud Crue, on 17 March 2016 - 03:21 AM, said:

[...]
Last note in re your OP: I am horrified that you consider PPCs to be "weird stuff".

After >1 year and ~5500 matches, I consider them to be "weird stuff" as well.

Actually...
- PPCs: WAY too much heat, WAY to low a hit chance, especially at their optimum range. They might be perfect for sieging turrets and dropships and maybe slow assault mechs. Against anything else ... weird stuff. At the very least, they would need a massive crit-chance boost so that they REALLY have another role than lasers.
- ACs: Weird stuff (BT-inherent problem: they have SOOOO bad stats compared to lasers. PGI compensated it a little, but still)
- Gauss (more like it's charging mechanism): weird stuff. Also way too less ammo since the doubled armor.
- MGs: weird stuff (no dps and they lack some serious crit-bonus)
- Flamers: weird stuff
- SRMS: weird dumbfire stuff. Every time I give them another go, hit-reg rofls me over and I throw them out again.
- SSRMS: good against lights, too much damage spread against anything else. Weird stuff.
- Pulse lasers (except in my wubhawk): weird stuff, because duration and slightly more heat efficiency don't compensate for their massively higher weight.
- LRM20: weird stuff because ridiculously large compared to other LRMs.

That leaves me with ... ER S/M/L Lasers and LRM 5/10/15.
Any combination of those is pretty good.

Everything else ... weird stuff


Ah, and: only speaking for clan tech, of course.
IS tech: weird stuff

Edited by Paigan, 17 March 2016 - 04:31 AM.

[Metus regem]

Paigan, on 17 March 2016 - 04:28 AM, said:

After >1 year and ~5500 matches, I consider them to be "weird stuff" as well.

Actually...
- PPCs: WAY too much heat, WAY to low a hit chance, especially at their optimum range. They might be perfect for sieging turrets and dropships and maybe slow assault mechs. Against anything else ... weird stuff. At the very least, they would need a massive crit-chance boost so that they REALLY have another role than lasers.
- ACs: Weird stuff (BT-inherent problem: they have SOOOO bad stats compared to lasers. PGI compensated it a little, but still)
- Gauss (more like it's charging mechanism): weird stuff. Also way too less ammo since the doubled armor.
- MGs: weird stuff (no dps and they lack some serious crit-bonus)
- Flamers: weird stuff
- SRMS: weird dumbfire stuff. Every time I give them another go, hit-reg rofls me over and I throw them out again.
- SSRMS: good against lights, too much damage spread against anything else. Weird stuff.
- Pulse lasers (except in my wubhawk): weird stuff, because duration and slightly more heat efficiency don't compensate for their massively higher weight.
- LRM20: weird stuff because ridiculously large compared to other LRMs.

That leaves me with ... ER S/M/L Lasers and LRM 5/10/15.

Everything else ... weird stuff


Ah, and: only speaking for clan tech, of course.
IS tech: weird stuff

That's sad....

PPC's and AC's are some of my most accurate systems according to my stats, over some 6200 games over the course of three years...

[mogs01gt]

DavidStarr, on 17 March 2016 - 01:19 AM, said:

First, there's the trial HBK-4P. I'm well aware of ghost heat so I use two weapons groups of no more than 6 medium lasers.
Then, there's my MPL HBK-4P.
And then there's STK-5S, for which I've tried no less than 5 different variations and still can't find one that's powerful. It works, but it's underwhelming to say the least. I think this is my current iteration. I had to drop some lasers and squeeze some SRMs in to stop being useless on the battlefield.

Switch your build to something like this. You can play around with the laser hardpoints if it runs too hot for you
STK-5S

Take advantage of the -25% duration on MLs.
HBK-4P

[Troutmonkey]

DavidStarr, on 17 March 2016 - 01:19 AM, said:

First, there's the trial HBK-4P. I'm well aware of ghost heat so I use two weapons groups of no more than 6 medium lasers.
Then, there's my MPL HBK-4P.
And then there's STK-5S, for which I've tried no less than 5 different variations and still can't find one that's powerful. It works, but it's underwhelming to say the least. I think this is my current iteration. I had to drop some lasers and squeeze some SRMs in to stop being useless on the battlefield.

Here's my Stalker. 4LL, 2ML, STD300 and AMS
Good damage and rather heat efficient. Fire the LLs off in pairs and then the MLs if you've got the heat for it. It is my longest serving mech and has one of my highest KDRs
STK-3F LL boat

[Paigan]

Metus regem, on 17 March 2016 - 04:33 AM, said:

That's sad....

PPC's and AC's are some of my most accurate systems according to my stats, over some 6200 games over the course of three years...

They might very well be in your stats and I envy you for it.
However, objectively compared to lasers, they are not.
Lasers hit instantly, have no ballistic arc and have only minimal danger of hitting terrain collision boxes. Apart from their duration, they have _PERFECT_ accuracy.
PPCs and ACs, with their flight time and whatnot, do not.

Edited by Paigan, 17 March 2016 - 04:43 AM.

[DavidStarr]

mogs01gt, on 17 March 2016 - 04:35 AM, said:

Switch your build to something like this. You can play around with the laser hardpoints if it runs too hot for you
STK-5S

It's not that much different from mine - slightly faster and 1 more heatsink, but I don't imagine that heatsink saving me, esp. since there's lots more lasers now. 3 LPLs was more than enough to overheat ultra fast with 18 heatsinks. So this is a one-volley loadout? Fire once - almost overheat - hide to cool off?

Edited by DavidStarr, 17 March 2016 - 04:48 AM.

[Lugh]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 17 March 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

no, lasers have BY FAR the best tonnage to damage ratio and the best damage profile in the game

im not joking
the HITSCAN weapon is the one that is the go-to weapon for brutal damage

massive alpha pinpoint laser meta is unfortunately a thing

All because the laser focused Underhive CRIED AND CRIED AND CRIED that PPFLD was not Fair, until they nerfed PPCs, Gauss and JJs into oblivion to kill the evil pop tart metagame.

The one that was easily defeated by any AC/ SRM combo brawler.... BUT IT WAS TOO HARD ---WHINE!

I WANT MY LASERS TO MATTER. WAHHHHHH!!

[DavidStarr]

Troutmonkey, on 17 March 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

STK-3F LL boat

I don't really understand the point of almost quirk-less 3F, of all the Stalkers, but this indeed looks like a loudout I could get behind. Interesting. But it still only has 5-ish DPS, 5.5 tops.
Unfortunately, I've just bought my 3rd STK yesterday, and it's 5M (regarded as one of the best brawlers by the Metamechs guide). So I won't be able to try your 3F any time soon

Edited by DavidStarr, 17 March 2016 - 05:04 AM.

[Cabusha]

For what it's worth, it takes time to get good at lasers. To learn how to whip your laser pointer onto the target and hold it in the same location for the entire burn takes practice. Until then, you are just raking the meck, dealing damage everywhere. By contrast an ac20 shot, when it hits, does full damage to the hit location.

At lower tiers, it's a lot easier for sustained damage ballistics or SRMs to succeed. Higher tiers shifts towards those more precise murder alpha's.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Xavori, on 17 March 2016 - 01:00 AM, said:

Ya. I'm pretty sure he's not playing MWO.

Of course, the thing is that if I can do anything other than laservomit, I do so. I'm a huge fan of ballistics, and it's made me sad all the way back to the tabletop days how badly unbalanced those weapons are (way too much tonnage tied up in a weapon that requires ammo). I'm also pretty keen on SRM's provided the mech I'm sticking them on is very fast, very durable, or very sneaky.

They were balanced if you only consider 3025 era tech as the weight of single heat sinks is often enough to justify adding an ac10 or ac5 to work with your energy weapons.

[Metus regem]

Paigan, on 17 March 2016 - 04:41 AM, said:

They might very well be in your stats and I envy you for it.
However, objectively compared to lasers, they are not.
Lasers hit instantly, have no ballistic arc and have only minimal danger of hitting terrain collision boxes. Apart from their duration, they have _PERFECT_ accuracy.
PPCs and ACs, with their flight time and whatnot, do not.

You are right on all counts, but for me, when ever I run laser vomit I do poorly in a match, I don't do well with the longer face time required over PPFLD weapons like PPC'S and AC's.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Lasers are only good in volume.

Its a weight advantage as well, but heat vs damage, heat vs dps is still bad second only to PPC's.

And PGI has reinforced it by finding every single variant they can find with bloated energy points to put in the game.

[Troutmonkey]

DavidStarr, on 17 March 2016 - 04:48 AM, said:

I don't really understand the point of almost quirk-less 3F, of all the Stalkers, but this indeed looks like a loudout I could get behind. Interesting. But it still only has 5-ish DPS, 5.5 tops.
Unfortunately, I've just bought my 3rd STK yesterday, and it's 5M (regarded as one of the best brawlers by the Metamechs guide). So I won't be able to try your 3F any time soon

Back in the days before quirks the 3F boasted enough hard points and the best torso twist by far. Unless they've changed something it still has better torso twist than all the others. It was my 3rd mech ever and still serves me well. The build can easily be adapted to any of the other Stalkers

DPS doesn't matter when you can peak, dish out your full payload and then duck behind cover to cool off without taking return fire.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 17 March 2016 - 04:58 AM.

[Cabusha]

Lugh, on 17 March 2016 - 04:48 AM, said:

All because the laser focused Underhive CRIED AND CRIED AND CRIED that PPFLD was not Fair, until they nerfed PPCs, Gauss and JJs into oblivion to kill the evil pop tart metagame.

The one that was easily defeated by any AC/ SRM combo brawler.... BUT IT WAS TOO HARD ---WHINE!

I WANT MY LASERS TO MATTER. WAHHHHHH!!

You're forgetting that the PPC GAUSS meta had as good DPM as the brawling builds, so they could brawl just fine and put out hurt to 600meters. Of course rather than addressing this, we got jump jet needs and other crap.

[DavidStarr]

Troutmonkey, on 17 March 2016 - 04:56 AM, said:

DPS doesn't matter when you can peak, dish out your full payload and then duck behind cover to cool off without taking return fire.

If you're not tanking damage for the team, you're not playing assault right, though.

Edited by DavidStarr, 17 March 2016 - 05:08 AM.

[Lugh]

Cabusha, on 17 March 2016 - 05:05 AM, said:

You're forgetting that the PPC GAUSS meta had as good DPM as the brawling builds, so they could brawl just fine and put out hurt to 600meters. Of course rather than addressing this, we got jump jet needs and other crap.

Most of the tarts couldn't brawl. They panicked and overheated and became easy kills. The good ones, COULD brawl, but those were far rarer.

So rare, I never found the pop tart era to be bothersome.

[Troutmonkey]

DavidStarr, on 17 March 2016 - 05:07 AM, said:

If you're not tanking damage for the team, you're not playing assault right, though.

If you're taking damage and exposing yourself when you don't need to, you're not playing Mechwarrior right.

The longer I live and the more damage I do, the more help I am to my team. I will expose myself when needed for the push, but you'll find that most engagements start with a lot of peaking and poking. Not getting shot to bits before the push helps a lot. One of the reasons why the Stalker has and will always be a good mechs regardless of quirks is because of those high mounts and the ability to deal damage while limiting return fire.

[DavidStarr]

Troutmonkey, on 17 March 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

The longer I live and the more damage I do, the more help I am to my team. I will expose myself when needed for the push

Sure. But when you're the only mech left against 5, it no longer matters how well you managed to avoid taking damage so far. But I digress. Obviously, you know better than me how to play the game.

Edited by DavidStarr, 17 March 2016 - 05:19 AM.

[Raso]

Individually a single medium laser might seem weak compared to, say, an AC10. And it is!

But for the weight of an AC10 and it's ammo you can boat numerous medium lasers or or a pair of large lasers and DHS. That's where lasers sgine. Well that and helping make this game a point and click experience like King's Quest with robots.

[Meathook]

DavidStarr, on 17 March 2016 - 05:18 AM, said:

Sure. But when you're the only mech left against 5, it no longer matters how well you managed to avoid taking damage so far. But I digress. Obviously, you know better than me how to play the game.

Tanking in the sense you mean it does not have to mean eating enemy fire like there is no tomorrow. As long as the enemies are occupied trying to shoot me, the outcome is the same. Letting a hill or building tank all this incoming fire for you is actually a good idea.