91 replies to this topic

[QuantumButler]

No, it's literal trash.

[FupDup]

It's almost as if one of the core aspects of MWO was that it tried to actually balance the mechs against each other instead of leaving everything as a mess with a clearly designated Master Race that rules everything all the time.

[Bud Crue]

Tractor Joe,

I admit that the 5W has some novelty, but I don't think that the build you describe is that much better that an a 4 and 2 combo that you can do on the Cat, especially given the emphasis/requirement to chain fire. But that isn't the point. I mean, do we really want to argue that the only distinguishing feature of the Archer is the fact that one version can boat 3 more missile racks is enough to warrant its existence? There are plenty of other mechs with high laser mounts and ability to use 3-4 missle racks. But all those mechs have better quirks (see Quickdraw, Warhammer, even the Jagger for example). Frankly it would not take much to give the Archer some distinction (how about a LRM-20 set of quirks on the 2R? etc.).

As it is though, the Archer does not feel like any sort of LRMing or even SRMing specialist, even with the 5W taken into account. I don't need it to be good, I just want it to be distinct. You are right, in that it is possible that PGI will down the road modify the quirks ala the Black Knight example you cite, but for now once the thing is mastered, I will stick to other mechs if I feel the need to LRM becasue they do it better than this "specialist".

[QuantumButler]

Bud Crue, on 17 March 2016 - 05:57 AM, said:

Tractor Joe,

I admit that the 5W has some novelty, but I don't think that the build you describe is that much better that an a 4 and 2 combo that you can do on the Cat, especially given the emphasis/requirement to chain fire. But that isn't the point. I mean, do we really want to argue that the only distinguishing feature of the Archer is the fact that one version can boat 3 more missile racks is enough to warrant its existence? There are plenty of other mechs with high laser mounts and ability to use 3-4 missle racks. But all those mechs have better quirks (see Quickdraw, Warhammer, even the Jagger for example). Frankly it would not take much to give the Archer some distinction (how about a LRM-20 set of quirks on the 2R? etc.).

As it is though, the Archer does not feel like any sort of LRMing or even SRMing specialist, even with the 5W taken into account. I don't need it to be good, I just want it to be distinct. You are right, in that it is possible that PGI will down the road modify the quirks ala the Black Knight example you cite, but for now once the thing is mastered, I will stick to other mechs if I feel the need to LRM becasue they do it better than this "specialist".

The best LRMboat is still probably the Awesome or Stalker.

[MechWarrior5081902]

The 5W is a horrible mech, any build is like trying to dress up a **** and make it smell like flowers. My best damage in any of the Archers is when I gave up and stripped all the missiles off of it, and put LPLs on it.

[dervishx5]

Wait, are we supposed to not spit on people who use LRMs? We shouldn't, without them we would have less people to easily kill.

[Bishop Steiner]

Moldur, on 17 March 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:

It seems to be a lot of people's logic that the Archer is, in-fact, supposed to be good. It is by some flaw of the universe that PGI released unto us a poorly performing, new mech.

On the other hand, some people seem to lament "p2w" and "power creep" when the new arrivals are good.

It's almost like... PGI can't please everyone. Breathtaking, shocking. I know.


The Archer is not as good as a lot of people thought it was going to be. Yeah. Why? Because they thought wrong. That's it. It wasn't some big bait and switch by PGI, it is that some people had hopes that were misaligned with reality.

Is PGI not allowed to release bad mechs? We already have bad mechs, why should the Archer not be another bad mech? What makes it special? Is it because people paid for it and it's new? Is that it? Please enlighten me, I am an idiot and a fool, an imbecile that requires things to be spelled out in the most simplistic of terms.

You know a Mech can be "good" without being a world beater, causing power creep, etc, right?

Conversely, releasing a BAD Mech, is a bad idea, period, as it erodes customer confidence and trust for future purchases.

Most people complaining aren't asking the Archer to be Uber-Quirked. Just to be GOOD at it's traditional lore role and aspects (a tough, solid LRM support mech) and yes a few of the Denizens of Mt Tryhard who want anything missiles to have uber SRM capability.

The complaint is, that the Archer is objectively speaking for those who play outside the Underhive, a bad mech. It's a beautiful mech, but it's bad.

Part of that is due not to the Mech itself, but just how bad PGI has made larger missile racks. But, with the Marauder and Warhammer, they had a similiar issue, with PPCs (no one uses them, basically unless uber quirked). And what did we see? A ton of 30-50% PPC projectile speed Quirks. (and laughably, most people still don't use PPCs,) But some very simple LRM/Generic Missile Spread adj, and possible /heat reduction or cooldowns (for the larger racks that desperately need it) would have gone a long way, without making it a Tier 0 Meta Mech.

Another factor, that is simple inarguable fact: The Archer has bad hitboxes. Well, anyone without blinders knew this would be the case by the concept art, confirmed by the sneak peaks of the in game model. Maddog STs, and Dragon CT. Both considered amongst the worst examples of respective torsos, in the game. Again, not a deal breaker. PGI has been doling out structure quirks like candy on halloween. +35 CT to the MA-3R? So would it be reasonable to think that a mech famed for it's ruggedness and that carried near maximum armor in TT, would have Structure Quirks to offset it's poor geometry (the very thing that quirks were first invented and applied to?). Instead, a few got minimal structure buffs, 1 got essentially none, and another got everything BUT THE DANG TORSOs structure buffed. It got it's arms and legs buffed. I've lost 1 arm on mine, (not counting when I lose the ST) and never been legged. Bravo.

The Quirks? Nonsensical in most cases, and do nothing to enhance the the archer either at it's traditional role, or a meta role, nor to address it's actual deficiencies, in hitbox, weapon type, etc. The One mech that got almost noticeable Structure Quirks? Got No agility quirks. So it's so slow to respond, those mild structure quirks literally achieve nothing. The other mechs with the agility? The geometry is so bad, and so easy to hit from any angle, that spreading damage really doesn't work against decent shots, and doubly so because of the lack of structure quirks.


Across the board, ARCs should have received
-Moderate to heavy Structure Buffs to the STs and CT.
-Probably agility quirks equivalent to the ARC-5W (the lowest ones overall)
then the Offensive Quirks of course would vary some, by chassis. (placeholder numbers)
-ARC-2R: Missile Spread Reduction: 10%, LRM15/20 Spread Reduction 15%. LRM15/20 Cooldown 15%
-ARC-5S: Missile Spread Reduction: 10% LRM Spread Reduction 10%, LRM Cooldown 10%, Missile Heat Reduction: 10%
-ARC-5W: Missile Spread Reduction 10% Missile Heat Reduction 15%, Missile Lock Time Reduction 15%
-ARC-5T: LRM15 Spread Reduction: 20%, Weapon Heat Reduction: 10%

Yup, aside from mild ones on the Tempest, no LAZOR PEWPEW Quirks. It's a MISSILE BOAT. Heck, it's supposed to be THE Missile boat of the era. The Lazors, on all the models we have, were actually a single pair of medium lasers, (the CT ones are supposed to be rear facing). Aka not a primary system, and thus, idiotic to quirk. The only ones that remotely made sense to give Energy Quirks to are the ARC-2K/5K models that came with LLasers/ERLLasers, respectively. Because those were a major part of their arsenal.

ExplicitContent, on 17 March 2016 - 05:37 AM, said:

You have data to support this? You've studied their tendencies? Looked at the mechs they play? Some kind of internal knowledge?
All rhetorical questions because I know the answer is no and you are throwing out statements you can't support.

Heavies are what you ride up tier in by the way. Assaults in their present state are feast or famine which is not ideal for fast climbing. Interesting though that you get toxic when people are being critical of what is by far and large an under performer. There are a handful of people saying it is "OK" and everyone else giving a whole lot of reasons why its terrible.

This.

I'm not friend of the Comp Community as a whole, but these blanket statements about them just totally undermine anything else one has to say. There are certainly some of likely fit the description, but it's going ot be a small percent and usually flush out soon enough.

[mogs01gt]

Moldur, on 17 March 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:

It seems to be a lot of people's logic that the Archer is, in-fact, supposed to be good. It is by some flaw of the universe that PGI released unto us a poorly performing, new mech.
On the other hand, some people seem to lament "p2w" and "power creep" when the new arrivals are good.
It's almost like... PGI can't please everyone. Breathtaking, shocking. I know.
The Archer is not as good as a lot of people thought it was going to be. Yeah. Why? Because they thought wrong. That's it. It wasn't some big bait and switch by PGI, it is that some people had hopes that were misaligned with reality.
Is PGI not allowed to release bad mechs? We already have bad mechs, why should the Archer not be another bad mech? What makes it special? Is it because people paid for it and it's new? Is that it? Please enlighten me, I am an idiot and a fool, an imbecile that requires things to be spelled out in the most simplistic of terms.

If players bought the mech thinking it was going to be good or have "power creed" then they simply do not grasp MWOs game mechanics.

[Bishop Steiner]

mogs01gt, on 17 March 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

If players bought the mech thinking it was going to be good or have "power creed" then they simply do not grasp MWOs game mechanics.

Was it too much to expect it to be able to do a Bad Job (LRMboat) as well as existing and less iconic LRMboats?

[mogs01gt]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 March 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

Was it too much to expect it to be able to do a Bad Job (LRMboat) as well as existing and less iconic LRMboats?

Well I expected it to be fragile but I also expected it to be the best LRM boat in the game. Meaning lock on reduction perks and 30% CD reduction on missiles like a lot of the medium mechs have.

When I think of Lore, some of the best pilots in Lore used Archers. PGI should have at least pulled their head out of their asses and realized the mech was awesome in Lore and should be an awesome LRM boat.

Also the Tempest should have had ECM quirks. Either range or tonnage reduction.

Edited by mogs01gt, 17 March 2016 - 08:01 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Primal Vengeance, on 17 March 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

The 5W is a horrible mech, any build is like trying to dress up a **** and make it smell like flowers. My best damage in any of the Archers is when I gave up and stripped all the missiles off of it, and put LPLs on it.

My highest damage game was with 4 SPLs and 5 SRM6s w/Artemis. ~970 damage. It was on River City in the group queue. Solo queue has been an exercise in frustration. I feel like everyone is even MORE standoffish than normal, so I can't get a good feel of my SRM Archers.

The 3 LPL Tempest has been the most consistent, though.

[mogs01gt]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 March 2016 - 08:02 AM, said:

I feel like everyone is even MORE standoffish than normal, so I can't get a good feel of my SRM Archers.

Its always like that in PUGs. Its frustrating as hell!

[Bishop Steiner]

mogs01gt, on 17 March 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

Well I expected it to be fragile but I also expected it to be the best LRM boat in the game. Meaning lock on reduction perks and 30% CD reduction on missiles like a lot of the medium mechs have.

When I think of Lore, some of the best pilots in Lore used Archers. PGI should have at least pulled their head out of their asses and realized the mech was awesome in Lore and should be an awesome LRM boat.

And really why would it have been fragile?

There was no mechanic in TT for fragile vs durable save stock armor values. The RFL I argued as fragile, because itwas described as such in lore (along with the Jagermech) and because both carried Light MEch levels of Armor. The Archer was noted for it's ruggedness, toughness and reliability, and carried near maximum Armor, in fact the same or more than half of the Assault Mechs in the 3025 TRO did. And more than the really Structurally buffed Marauder or Warhammer-.

Seriously:


Dragon- 10 tons
Ostroc- 9 tons
Ostsol- 9 tons
Quickdraw- 8 tons
Rifleman- 7.5 tons
Catapult- 10 tons
Crusader- 12 tons
Jagermech- 6 tons
Thunderbolt- 13 tons
Archer- 13 tons armor (That's for every variant in MWO )
Grasshopper- 13 tons
Warhammer- 10 tons
Marauder- 11.5 tons
Orion- 14.5 tons
-------------------------------------
Awesome- 15 tons
Charger- 10 tons
Goliath- 14.5 tons
Victor- 11.5 tons
Zeus- 11.5 tons
Battlemaster- 14.5 tons
Stalker- 13.5 tons
Cyclops- 10 tons
Banshee- 15 tons
Atlas- 19 tons

Out of the entire TRO 3025, there were 7 Mechs with more armor, stock, than an Archer. And but one were Assault Mechs.

Simple fact is, it actually should be TOUGHER than the Marauder or Warhammer.

It's offensive capability, while boring, was potent. LRms are lackluster enough on their own to cover that. But the fact that LRM15-20s are just BAD, further damns the poor versions like the 2R that despite being the "Original Missile Boat" of Battletech, gets...3 Missile Hardpoints.

And because of it's fragility, and quirks, it's categorically worse at the role than the CPLT-C1

[ChronoBear]

OP, Yes it should be good. Any company that produces a product should strive to produce the best product they can for the most profitable margin. Companies that do not follow this philosophy rarely stay in business long.

Personally, I like the Archer. I rarely have a problem with paper armor that most people complain about. I assume that is because I play the Archer like it was meant to be, a fire-support mech with a backup weapon or two. I load my Archers with LRMs,Tag, Narc, BAP, and a few lasers, and at least for me I feel I have contributed each match.

Could the Archer use some missile buffs? - Yes

[ExplicitContent]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 March 2016 - 08:02 AM, said:

The 3 LPL Tempest has been the most consistent, though.

Which is a pretty sad considering how many mechs can run 3 LPL better because they have the structure buffs and the quirks to support it.

I just wish it were unique in some way other than holding the title of, "most likely to lose a side torso"

[Lugh]

ExplicitContent, on 17 March 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

Which is a pretty sad considering how many mechs can run 3 LPL better because they have the structure buffs and the quirks to support it.

I just wish it were unique in some way other than holding the title of, "most likely to lose a side torso"

Sorry bud they don't even get that the Orion IIc has that one wrapped up.

[ExplicitContent]

Lugh, on 17 March 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

Sorry bud they don't even get that the Orion IIc has that one wrapped up.

I have those as well and I beg to differ. Either way it's a terrible title to have. Both need structure quirks. I am a bit worried that the wanting IICs will continue to get overlooked and remain pretty much unenjoyable.

[Bishop Steiner]

Primal Vengeance, on 17 March 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

The 5W is a horrible mech, any build is like trying to dress up a **** and make it smell like flowers. My best damage in any of the Archers is when I gave up and stripped all the missiles off of it, and put LPLs on it.

Actually, out of the Archer's it's one of the best.

1) The archer is too fragile to be a good brawler. SRM/Laser builds have short lives against quality opponents.
2) The Large LRM Racks are garbage. So massing multiple small racks is the only effective route.
3) Cooldowns on the 2R are waaaaay overrated because of how bad LRM15/20 are. Moderately OK with 10s.
4) 5W allows you to pack 5x LRM5s which allows for a near constant stream of concentrated missiles when not facing AMS, or a bulk 25 with fast reload, against AMS, and to still pack 4x SRM4 in the arms giving it a solid short range punch.

If anything, it's only glaring flaw, aside from being an archer, is ammo reliance, but even with a STD engine it's easy to build them to have enough ammo, especially considering their average lifespan.


I consider it the best of the Archers, or the Best of the Worst, as it were. The Tempest is too sluggish especially without a large XL, to deal with Lights well, the 2R is mediocre with Missiles or Lasers, overall, the 5S can't decide what it wants to do or be.

*shrugs*

[ChronoBear]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 March 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

I consider it the best of the Archers, or the Best of the Worst, as it were. The Tempest is too sluggish especially without a large XL, to deal with Lights well, the 2R is mediocre with Missiles or Lasers, overall, the 5S can't decide what it wants to do or be.

You are assuming that you are running around solo'ing people? This is a team game no? I find if I stay with the pack, second row. Using the tools available I feel relatively successful. Fire support is not insta gibbing people like the meta ******. Fire support is putting damage on folks, keeping them honest, and harassing until the meta ****** can get to them.

Last night I had several matches where I did something like 700+ 2 kills 10 assists. I had a couple narc bonuses and a ton of spotting with my Tag and UAV.

[QuantumButler]

ChronoBear, on 17 March 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

You are assuming that you are running around solo'ing people? This is a team game no? I find if I stay with the pack, second row. Using the tools available I feel relatively successful. Fire support is not insta gibbing people like the meta ******. Fire support is putting damage on folks, keeping them honest, and harassing until the meta ****** can get to them.

Last night I had several matches where I did something like 700+ 2 kills 10 assists. I had a couple narc bonuses and a ton of spotting with my Tag and UAV.

Remember, "support" in MWO is just code for "Terrible and needs to be carried by teammates"