80 replies to this topic

[Damia Savon]

Alistair Winter, on 20 March 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

I wonder how many people complaining about the Archer regularly play other heavy mech laser+LRM builds, other than the 6xLRM5 Mad Dog. How many of them regularly play the CPLT-C1, for example? Or JM6-A? Or Timber Wolf with 2xLRM15?

LRM boating is easy if you have a Mad Dog, an assault mech or some super-quirked medium like the Hunchback. But most heavy mech LRM carriers don't do very well if they try to combine lasers and LRMs. For the most part, the most successful LRM carriers in a pug match will be the boats. LRM is all about boating these days.

So I'm wondering how many angry Archer players are actually using the builds that would be effective on other heavy mechs, and how many are simply boating.

The first mech I bought was my C1. It is my baby, my favorite ride. I always do well with her. Even if I have a sucky day I still enjoy driving her. I thought it would be the same with the archers but no. The C1 is very much like it was on TT while the Archers are nothing like they were.

I can lrm boat but seriously I hate doing it. Mostly I hate dragging a ton of lrm5s along and just spamming them. It is stupid and I'm stubborn when it comes to certain mechs.

With my C1 I am never afraid of mixing it up even though I only have 4 ml. I have no confidence at all doing that with an Archer, even though it is supposed to be better at it than the C1.

I won't play Clan crap.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 20 March 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

I wonder how many people complaining about the Archer regularly play other heavy mech laser+LRM builds, other than the 6xLRM5 Mad Dog. How many of them regularly play the CPLT-C1, for example? Or JM6-A? Or Timber Wolf with 2xLRM15?

LRM boating is easy if you have a Mad Dog, an assault mech or some super-quirked medium like the Hunchback. But most heavy mech LRM carriers don't do very well if they try to combine lasers and LRMs. For the most part, the most successful LRM carriers in a pug match will be the boats. LRM is all about boating these days.

So I'm wondering how many angry Archer players are actually using the builds that would be effective on other heavy mechs, and how many are simply boating.

I play both, regularly. JM6-A(C) was my "swap" mech when I ran primarily my 6DD, if the 6DD was stuck in match. Still run it.
Especially since the hitbox change, the CPLT-C1 get's a lot of play, does well for me, though I hate TAG taking an offensive slot.
And on my Clan Acct, MDD-PRIME is my "secondary" Mech

and ALL are better than any Archer variant. The ARC-5W, so far has been the most consistent performer, but even it runs into issues that require TAG, which it can't mount. I'll even go so far as to say it can be fun, and does OK in 1v1 or even some 2v1 scenarios. The moment it takes a hint of focus fire though, it's down for the count faster than my Hunchbacks, Shadowhawks, Catapults or Centurions, etc.

So, no, actually, Alistair, I can't speak for everyone, but I'm intimately familiar with the capabilities of the "competition". And The ARC does NOT stack up.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 March 2016 - 09:24 AM.

[Johny Rocket]

Malleus011, on 20 March 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

I've run every heavy IS LRM machine there is. My #2 most played mech is a superstock Cat C1. I'm hardly an ace but I can run LRMs effectively to support my team (unless the game is high tier enough that they just don't deliver anymore). So I speak from experience when I say - the Archer is a bad missile boat and a weak mech. Any good game you had in an Archer woulda been better in a Catapult, Orion M, V, VA, Marauder 5D or Warhammer 7S. It needs requirking to bring it up to par. And laser boat Archers? Why didn't you just get a Black Knight?

You bring a cat and I'll bring an Archer and we will see. The Archer out guns the Cat in a 5t heavier mech that can match the speed of any Cat build. I run the 5W with an xl300 5 lrm5 and 4 srm6. You can't touch that.

I also don't try to run it like a heavy I run it like a 55t missile spammer, just maybe why I'm raking in 3-4 kills a match.

Aetes Nakatomi, on 20 March 2016 - 04:43 AM, said:

I thoroughly enjoy my Archers. The 5W and 5S play very similar to each other. Load them up with 5-6 LRM5 and chain fire on anything YOU have line of sight on around 200-400 away. The only difference is that one uses SRM backup and the other Medium/Small pulse. The 2R is much like the Tempest, due to the lack of missile hardpoints they cannot run the 5-6 LRM5 needed for the rainbow style of play. So they end up with a couple of LRM15s or 3 LRM10s and Small/Medium lasers or they need to ditch the LRMs and load up on Large and Medium pulse lasers. Either way they tend to be a little lackluster with the Tempest working slightly better due to the ECM. I still enjoy them all and elited all four variants quite quickly Just my two pennies.

3 lrm5 and 3t ammo is like a fast fire 15, throw on an xl320, 3 ml and 2 LPL. Great fire support build.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 20 March 2016 - 09:34 AM.

[Novakaine]

TrapJaw80, on 19 March 2016 - 11:45 PM, said:

I waited long for the Archer to be implemented in this game, because its (mostly lorewise) the main mech for me.

I play them currently with mixed loadouts, stock LRM´s plus. Hammer the enemy at range with the LRM´s, finish him with med lasers and srm´s on close quarters.
They work fine for me and i have lots of fun .

Has anyone else fun with his archers?

Stop with the stupid propaganda.
If you're a regular lurm boat pilot, you know full well they are crap.
Can you do well in them?
Occasionally yes.
But overall aw hell no, and LRMs is what I've been doing since closed Beta.
Either secretly you're a lazor boy or just simply being a obtuse troll.
I'm surprised PGI didn't give the Archer ballistic quirks.
Fifty percent torso twist with tissue paper armor is a freaking joke.
It's a freaking LRM mech PGI for gawd's sake
Not a bleepin srm brawler.

[Jiyu Mononoke]

I really like my Tempest. I run it with 2x LRM-15 Artemis, 1x ER-LG Laser, 4x Med Pulse Lasers.

- Fire LRM's mostly as a line of sight weapon, poke-n-snipe with the ER LG, and some good close up with the 4 med-pulse. Lovin the ECM, supported with a command console, advanced zoom & LRM modules

741 damage my second run. Usually a bit less than that on average, but I am happy with it. Yes, some LRM quirks to tune it up a touch would be nice, but happy to work it as is. Quirks don't make the player, they are just sprinkles on the ice-cream.

[Novakaine]

Tractor Joe, on 20 March 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

You bring a cat and I'll bring an Archer and we will see. The Archer out guns the Cat in a 5t heavier mech that can match the speed of any Cat build. I run the 5W with an xl300 5 lrm5 and 4 srm6. You can't touch that.

I also don't try to run it like a heavy I run it like a 55t missile spammer, just maybe why I'm raking in 3-4 kills a match.
3 lrm5 and 3t ammo is like a fast fire 15, throw on an xl320, 3 ml and 2 LPL. Great fire support build.

Sorry TJ and here's the thing.
My Orion VA trounced every Archer in the inventory.
A friend and myself tried it out starting at max lrm range then closing in.
The Orion had 4 lrm/5 racks, a AC/5 and a large laser.
The Archers mixed and different loadouts with and without modules.
The mere fact that the Orion's faster firing rate shredded them every time.
Before they could even close to medium laser or srm range.
And let's not even talk about heat generation with similar lrm loadouts.
If the Archers had just the Orions firing rate and heat generation that would be badass.
As of today it's just meh

[Bishop Steiner]

Novakaine, on 20 March 2016 - 10:23 AM, said:

Sorry TJ and here's the thing.
My Orion VA trounced every Archer in the inventory.
A friend and myself tried it out starting at max lrm range then closing in.
The Orion had 4 lrm/5 racks, a AC/5 and a large laser.
The Archers mixed and different loadouts with and without modules.
The mere fact that the Orion's faster firing rate shredded them every time.
Before they could even close to medium laser or srm range.
And let's not even talk about heat generation with similar lrm loadouts.
If the Archers had just the Orions firing rate and heat generation that would be badass.
As of today it's just meh

And people bringing XLs in Archers? Tasty. Super easy to hit STs say hello.

[Snuggles Time]

This must be Satire

[3xnihilo]

Yes, I am having fun in my Archers.

No, that does not mean they are good.

Some better ST buffs are probably necessary to elevate them to a "useful" run of the mill level.
Better spread on big launchers would be an awesome addition for lore friendly builds.

I would like the option of building an srm brawler, but first and foremost I think they need to be good lrm platforms. As in, if you are thinking about running lrms you think Archer or Catapult first, not hunchback, jäger, or warhammer.

Edited by 3xnihilo, 20 March 2016 - 10:53 AM.

[LegendaryArticuno]

If the quirks are good enough, ill upgrade to 2R(S). I like this variant more than the others.

[C E Dwyer]

They are bad mechs poorly implemented, they should be one of the toughest mechs in the game, they have lore wise, twice the Side torso armour of a Zeus, three and a half times the Arm armour of a Jagermaster, they are more heavily armoured than most assaults, in the first edition TRO 3025 only the Atlas, Banshee, and Battle master have significantly more,yet they fold like paper.

Compared to other mechs that are quirked to hell and back, (ZEUS) and this ended up with weak ones, even used as intended as an LRM platform they fail badly. because multiple LRM5 are better than two lrm20's so a Kintaro is a better lrm platform

Edited by Cathy, 20 March 2016 - 11:08 AM.

[Bud Crue]

El Bandito, on 20 March 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

Cause my Tempest is the only IS laser boat Heavy mech with ECM. It adds flavor. Right now it is performing decently, and I expect even more performance boost next week.

Context here is in re running the Tempest as laser boat.
The difference between the 0xp vs Tempest is not a significant one if you are doing a 3LPL build. Yes Tempest gets higher overall hardpoints (especially the CT) but the flavor is hardly distinctive. That said, I will probably reconfigure my 3LPL 0xp to a different load out and drop the 3LPL config into the Tempest specifically to maximize those better hardpoints because I am desperate to give all the Archers a reason to be kept.

On a related note, I tried a std 325 2SRM6+A and 4 MPL on the Tempest. My thoughts were I want the thing to be a sneaky flanker and/or ECM escort. Problem was that every time I tried to be sneaky, those damn ST doors gave me away or at least made my position behind a ridge easier to track and the firing delay when keeping them closed was unacceptable. Thus, why I decided just go to a LPL build and avoid the doors all together.

Also, for those committing the act of blasphemy and boating LPLs on the Tempest (or for that matter an 0xp) has anyone tried a std 325, short 1 true dub (to make it fit without sacrificing armor that's what I had to do)? I ask, for I am curious if anyone thinks the 1.3 heat efficiency is a reasonable cost for doing 75KPH (80 with Tweek). ATM I am running a std 310, which gets me to a 1.4 efficiency at a loss of only a few kph. Just curious what other people are doing in this regard (if they are doing it at all).

Edited by Bud Crue, 20 March 2016 - 11:10 AM.

[wanderer]

I'm getting better performance in Orions than I am Archers.

Because better quirks mean they're better at their job. Ditto Catapults. It's not going to be as obvious to people who don't live in missile boats, but the lack of missile quirks tends to mean if you actually use LRMs, they'll generally feel less accurate (most lack velocity buffs) and slower (weak/no cooldown buffs) vs. older missile chuckers.

LRM5 builds feel it least because they're the most optimal LRM launchers, meaning -5Ws get bothered the least by being quirkless generally- but even then, strap 6x5 on a Catapult-A1 and it'll perform better than the -5W does, assuming you didn't use the extra hardpoints for more 5-racks instead of NARC/SRM.

[Trauglodyte]

Wanderer makes a good point. Looking at the Archers, it kind of boggles my mind that there isn't one that has the spread quirk. Hell, the Tempest has ONLY missile hard points and it doesn't get it. The only reason that I can come up with is that PGI fears the power of that quirk combined with the mass boating of LRMs.

[wanderer]

Trauglodyte, on 20 March 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

Wanderer makes a good point. Looking at the Archers, it kind of boggles my mind that there isn't one that has the spread quirk. Hell, the Tempest has ONLY missile hard points and it doesn't get it. The only reason that I can come up with is that PGI fears the power of that quirk combined with the mass boating of LRMs.

Ironically, the -5W works best as a LRM 5 build in that regard, which has minimal spread to begin with. That was the one I expected to see heat quirks on more than anything, given the chassis begs for mass launcher builds.

The -2R can barely get away with ALRM 45 (3x15). The Tempest, if it uses Artemis can at most get 2xALRM20 + ALRM5, sacrificing it's CT energy hardpoints in the process. And we all know how bad LRM 20's are, right?

[3xnihilo]

Bud Crue, on 20 March 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

Context here is in re running the Tempest as laser boat.
The difference between the 0xp vs Tempest is not a significant one if you are doing a 3LPL build. Yes Tempest gets higher overall hardpoints (especially the CT) but the flavor is hardly distinctive. That said, I will probably reconfigure my 3LPL 0xp to a different load out and drop the 3LPL config into the Tempest specifically to maximize those better hardpoints because I am desperate to give all the Archers a reason to be kept.

On a related note, I tried a std 325 2SRM6+A and 4 MPL on the Tempest. My thoughts were I want the thing to be a sneaky flanker and/or ECM escort. Problem was that every time I tried to be sneaky, those damn ST doors gave me away or at least made my position behind a ridge easier to track and the firing delay when keeping them closed was unacceptable. Thus, why I decided just go to a LPL build and avoid the doors all together.

Also, for those committing the act of blasphemy and boating LPLs on the Tempest (or for that matter an 0xp) has anyone tried a std 325, short 1 true dub (to make it fit without sacrificing armor that's what I had to do)? I ask, for I am curious if anyone thinks the 1.3 heat efficiency is a reasonable cost for doing 75KPH (80 with Tweek). ATM I am running a std 310, which gets me to a 1.4 efficiency at a loss of only a few kph. Just curious what other people are doing in this regard (if they are doing it at all).

I don't know if this is helpful, but I tend to aim for 1.3 heat efficiency in my builds. Also, I tried 2 srm6 + 6 ml and srm4 + mpl on the tempest with mixed results. I definitely liked the 4's over the 6's for the quicker cool down.

At this point I am reluctant to go to straight laser vomit on the Archers because it feels wrong, but I could get there eventually I suppose, since I am more likely to find something I can work with than to set a mech aside completely. Maybe something along the lines of 3 erll/3ml or something

[Bobdolemite]

Ive done fairly well with my archers but I do tend to agree that they are underquirked and squishy. I was pretty happy at first, especially at how an ECM Heavy helped even the field for ECM cover. Though a I recently purchased the warhammers (I know ima late bloomer, damn you taxes) and now I have serious second thoughts about the archer.

I forget which variant but I am running a warhammer with a near identical build to my tempest (4 mlas 1 tag 4 x alrm 15) 6 x mlas 2 x alrm 15 and the warhammer does WORLDS better. The warhammer can actually brawl a bit and I tend to finish matches with missles spent and half my extremeties. This is very different than the archer which rarely survives a match at all.

Id love to see something to make the archers a viable LRM carrier choice, at this point as soon as its mastered ill be going back to one of the following: Stalker, Awesome 8R, Battlemaster, Marauder, as these are proven to be good carriers.

[C E Dwyer]

Alistair Winter, on 20 March 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

I wonder how many people complaining about the Archer regularly play other heavy mech laser+LRM builds, other than the 6xLRM5 Mad Dog. How many of them regularly play the CPLT-C1, for example? Or JM6-A? Or Timber Wolf with 2xLRM15?

LRM boating is easy if you have a Mad Dog, an assault mech or some super-quirked medium like the Hunchback. But most heavy mech LRM carriers don't do very well if they try to combine lasers and LRMs. For the most part, the most successful LRM carriers in a pug match will be the boats. LRM is all about boating these days.

So I'm wondering how many angry Archer players are actually using the builds that would be effective on other heavy mechs, and how many are simply boating.

I have never boated on my Catapults, I have never used the lame guass ac20 buils that people have mounted, I run close to lore builds and have fun with them, niehter have I used the splat cat builds.

I'm happy to get up close, and brawl with the 3 ML's and would estimate that roughly 40% of my kills come with not the LRM's but with the lasers, even before its shrinking, it is a vastly superior mech to the archer in every way but the ECM carrying, and is 5 tons lighter

With my C1 I'm averaging 464 damage a match, K/d of 2.04 using LRM15 with artemis, and before the clans it was 4ml since the clans its been 3ml and a tag and bap

My archers with similar loads have painfully bad stats, doing less than 250 average damage, the K/D is in scrub land with less than 1 and this is with an ecm mech with bap

Edited by Cathy, 20 March 2016 - 12:39 PM.

[lshtaria]

The Archer is one of the most appalling mechs I've bought.

It needs quirks, it doesn't get what it needs.

The thing needs structure quirks along the lines of the MAD and WHM, very badly. There's also no excuse for the piss poor weapon quirks. Russ not liking lurms is a despicable reason for underquirking this mech so heavily. Personal opinion should have no relevance to how a mech is adjusted to be competitive.

PGI were crowing about how this mech would be as great as the other rereseens. Well, I'm afraid you failed PGI and by a very long way.

[C E Dwyer]

wanderer, on 20 March 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

Ironically, the -5W works best as a LRM 5 build in that regard, which has minimal spread to begin with. That was the one I expected to see heat quirks on more than anything, given the chassis begs for mass launcher builds.

The -2R can barely get away with ALRM 45 (3x15). The Tempest, if it uses Artemis can at most get 2xALRM20 + ALRM5, sacrificing it's CT energy hardpoints in the process. And we all know how bad LRM 20's are, right?

I find lrm15's on the archer useless, even with artemis, an unenhanced lrm10 is a better option

I also find the most useless thing about them, is the thing that we all ooh and ah'd about, because it made the mech look so great, the missile doors, the delay in launching with them closed is painfull and with them open you might as well wave a flag and say here I am

Edited by Cathy, 20 March 2016 - 01:37 PM.