555 replies to this topic

[Krivvan]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

The SRM archer will be in comp decks for the sheer oomph it packs, and how cool it will run comparatively...

At the moment, it doesn't look likely to be a mainstay unless we're looking for other heavy SRM mechs in a heavier brawl push deck. It may have some uses, and it may even replace the mad dog (we'd have to science it first), but it's not a giant powerhouse that everyone's waiting to get the chance to use. At the moment, mechs like the Griffin are a lot more usable than the Archer for less weight.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 26 March 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

You keep saying that, and that in itself is nowhere near true. Clan SRMs are fine for the most part. I still mock the IS "buff" in SRM damage because it's practically inconsequential when it comes down to reality.

Does this put the point across nicely about cASRM6s VS isASRM6s?

[Dimento Graven]

Mcgral18, on 26 March 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

Does this put the point across nicely about cASRM6s VS isASRM6s?

Clans do less than 1 point of damage less and save 1.5 tons of weight which they could invest in a heat sink, more ammo, or a Level 1 TC.

Neat!

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 26 March 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

Gyrok, the problem sounds like you're not very good with Clan mechs. I've got over 1200 QP drops in TBRs and in Clans I can drop with great Clan units like AWOL, keep up and end in the middle of the scoreboard. I'm not uber golden elite but I do good in Clan robbits. I have more time in TBRs than any single IS mech.

I have more time in HBRs than any other mech, and I have 1400+ drops in TWs, I have also logged over 800 drops in DWs.

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If you can't work a TBR to out-brawl any IS mech in most situations you're doing it wrong. If you can't drastically out-tank a BK you're really doing it wrong.

No...actually...the BK is quite tanky. a BK can core a TW out with 2 alphas...which it can do with remarkable speed and precision, and not overheat. Plus, with the fraction of a second beam durations + duration quirks, it puts that damage where it counts quickly and twists away.

To you, I say you are simply not good at playing the BK. I play TWs well enough that they are in my top 5 KDR list...you know what is on top of that list though?

1. BK

2. WHM

3. HBR

So tell me some more that I cannot play clan mechs...

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Situationally an IS team can create a specialized deck that's potentially stronger for that wave than a Clan deck. Vitric is a good example - a line of Maulers with some Jags or other more nimble cool runners can just demolish on attack or defense - for 2 waves. So if you can roll the Clan team up by wave 3 you're fine. Otherwise you're in trouble.

In any situation, an IS team can create a specialized deck that is better than a clan deck. The lone exception being extreme range play (800m+), which virtually never happens. So clans have an advantage on paper that is not worth the paper it is printed on.

Now, if you want to un-nerf the fall off on medium and small class clan lasers, I would be fine with having discussions about clan "range advantages".

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Clans at their most successful are a meat grinder. You look at traded tonnage not kill for kill and try to trap and burn out the other team big tonnage early and prep between waves.

The problem lies in quirked Atlases, BKs, WHMs, TDRs, and other mechs that can take a beating like a clan mech many tons heavier. A BK can take a beating like a GAR with structure quirks, and better than a WHK, almost as well as an EXE, and better than a DW (bad hitboxes, and/or bad mobility, being the biggest culprit on the last 2, while the BK has very favorable hit boxes that roll damage well and twists like a boss).

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Same as everyone else has said.

No, people have said I underestimate the TW. Perhaps a small amount...however...even the others admit there are better brawling options in the IS over the TW.

You are not admitting that.

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2016 - 06:02 PM, said:

Clans do less than 1 point of damage less and save 1.5 tons of weight which they could invest in a heat sink, more ammo, or a Level 1 TC.

Neat!

They have to invest in the extra DHS, the heat cap was nerfed, remember?

Krivvan, on 26 March 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

At the moment, it doesn't look likely to be a mainstay unless we're looking for other heavy SRM mechs in a heavier brawl push deck. It may have some uses, and it may even replace the mad dog (we'd have to science it first), but it's not a giant powerhouse that everyone's waiting to get the chance to use. At the moment, mechs like the Griffin are a lot more usable than the Archer for less weight.

Sure, the GRF has ECM and 4 missile hardpoints...which makes a lot of sense, plus good mobility and favorable hit boxes.

However...I suspect the ARC will obsolete whatever minor use the MDD saw in any comp deck ever (not like it was ever a main stay to begin with, either...).

[MischiefSC]

So help me understand why there are so many units playing Clans and winning.

Against unit's or pugs.

My TBR takes more damage to kill than my BK, is faster, has JJs and better loadout options plus a better optimal engagement range with the same alpha - plus better heat management.

If you brawl with LPL/cerml laservomit at <300m you're doing it wrong. If you can't control engagement range with a slower, less maneuverable BK you're doing it wrong. If you're not shooting the ST for an easy kill you're doing it wrong. It's got boobs from the side.

Hitboxes are a bit better on bknight but not a lot. It dies for a fraction the damage of the TBR.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 26 March 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

You keep saying that, and that in itself is nowhere near true. Clan SRMs are fine for the most part. I still mock the IS "buff" in SRM damage because it's practically inconsequential when it comes down to reality.

IS SRMs have tighter spread, the damage is negligible mostly. However, name me a clan mech that can tote 9 SRM packs...?

Sheer volume of fire is going to be the king in the scenario, and the ARC will be devastating at it.

The Catapult was never a thing because the ears were as big a whole other mech, and it would easily get destroyed before it ever got close. Plus the hit boxes are unfavorable as well.

The ARC has none of those faults, and structure quirks that rival the BK and exceed the WHM...plus bay doors reduce incoming damage by 10% on the STs.

I am not saying the ARC will dominate comp, or that the ARC is even the best brawler mech. Not by a long shot...

What I am saying, is that in terms of SRM delivery platforms with armor and ~80 kph mobility, the ARC is the top of the heap right now...and there is no clan answer.

Am I trying to justify a 9 missile clan mech? No.

What I am saying is that in a comp built around a potent brawl deck, if you are going to bring SRMs and want a high DPS purpose built frame for it...the ARC is the best option by a landslide.

Am I saying the TW is a terrible brawler? No.

What I am saying is that it is not the best brawler, and is not even the best clan brawler.

What the TW does well, and I have said it for a long time now, is do just about anything passably well. The TW is not exceptional at anything, but it is a B+/A- mech at just about everything, even LRMs.

There are better ballistic platforms, there are better laser platforms, there are better SRM platforms...but the TW can do any of it "well enough".

I think you have misunderstood my intent, and the tone of my post because text conveys none of that. What I am trying to convey is that specialized IS builds will trump clan builds always...with the exception of extreme range 4 ERLL mechs, and even then, something like a 6 ERLL STK/BNC/BLR might make a run for the money there, simply because of the additional laser per volley...

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Because COD kiddies cant understand why it would be good to have a challenge in a game

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 26 March 2016 - 06:30 PM, said:

So help me understand why there are so many units playing Clans and winning.

Against unit's or pugs.

My TBR takes more damage to kill than my BK, is faster, has JJs and better loadout options plus a better optimal engagement range with the same alpha - plus better heat management.

WRONG.

If I shoot your CT in your TW, you get ~80-84 armor + 46 structure. It takes a total of, at most, 130 damage to core you and kill you. A BK does 116 in 2 alphas under 4 seconds and can finish you with a burst of 5 MLs for 25 damage.

If you shoot a BK CT, you get ~80-84 armor + 69 structure. It takes a total of, at most, 153 damage to core and kill a BK.

Supposing you run laser vomit...a 54 alpha with 2 LPL + 4 ERML does 108 damage in 4 seconds, and requires a cool shot to finish the mech on the 3rd alpha, you have to use a whole alpha and burn a cool shot to kill it as well..

TTK is essentially the same in this case...but the TW is down a cool shot and redlining, the BK still has a cool shot to burn, and will cool off by the next enemy anyway.

However...if the BK is rolling damage, it rolls it much more favorably than the TW. There is nothing to dispute in this case.

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If you brawl with LPL/cerml laservomit at <300m you're doing it wrong. If you can't control engagement range with a slower, less maneuverable BK you're doing it wrong. If you're not shooting the ST for an easy kill you're doing it wrong. It's got boobs from the side.

I have been referencing SRMs, and you assume I brawl with laser vomit? Keep up now...

The BK also has big shield arms...

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Hitboxes are a bit better on bknight but not a lot. It dies for a fraction the damage of the TBR.

As shown above, it takes a substantially larger amount of damage to kill a BK than the TW...approaching 20% in fact. If you assume equal damage rolling, a TW ST or CT is more easily hit and kept under fire than the BK by a large margin, and TTK goes up for the BK dramatically there. You can hit the TW CT with the mech facing ~115-120 degrees away from you...you cannot hit the BK CT from that sort of angle at all.

Edited by Gyrok, 26 March 2016 - 06:44 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 06:21 PM, said:

They have to invest in the extra DHS, the heat cap was nerfed, remember?

Ah yes, that entirely minuscule change.

How many heatsinks do you mount? I'll go ahead and do the Math for you.
TrueDubs, where the majority of your heat cap and dissipation comes from, was not affected.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 26 March 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

Ah yes, that entirely minuscule change.

How many heatsinks do you mount? I'll go ahead and do the Math for you.
TrueDubs, where the majority of your heat cap and dissipation comes from, was not affected.

Miniscule? 5 heat is an entire ERML worth of heat, and the pittance of a bump in dissipation was not enough to offset the change.

[MischiefSC]

What you're missing is that specialization =limitation.

To have an advantage as IS you have to accurately predict, build for and control the engagement. If you don't precognatively iidentify what is going to happen they're in a bad spot.

Also it's a variety of tonnage so if you come heavy for 2 waves you've got to go light for 2. The Mauler is awesome on hot maps against assaults but slow and vulnerable to quick lights and brawlers.

Conversely Clan mechs excel at a wide range of engagement envelopes and situations. Natural synergy for speed and engagement range. Almost universally faster for the weight. You can take a brawling loadout and still be fine at medium range or an unexpected poke fight.

Don't get 300m from an Atlas. Boom. You win. Rush and circle the Mauler. Hit the Black Knight at 400m.

Clan mechs are more aggressive and more flexible. You just have to be smart enough to use it. Teams that are dominate.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Hell, I had said to Garth at one point on Reddit that Id have liked the Clans to be allowed to be OP and even he just couldnt even grasp why that would be a good thing.

Because when youre FRR and theyre kicking your asses back to your measly seven planets because of their technological superiority, those few victories you get feel so much better.

[Lightfoot]

FEAR
Fear of creating an OP Clan mech. Which is a shame because it has crept into the modeling of the Clan mechs as well. They now get giant sized torso lower sections like the EBJ or oversized missile launchers like the Orion IIc. The Orion IIc even had it's arm missile launcher switched up to create an enormous left shoulder! So I will need to see this changed before I buy another Clan mech. Mad Cat, Storm Crow, Cheetah, Dire Wolf. Forget the rest unless you go for the mech's lore.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 06:41 PM, said:

Miniscule? 5 heat is an entire ERML worth of heat, and the pittance of a bump in dissipation was not enough to offset the change.

I'll assume 20 heatsinks

Previously, +1.4 heat, +0.14 H/s dissipation
Currently, +1.1 heat, +0.15 H/s dissipation

Previously
50+10(1.4)
=64*1.2
=76.8 heat capacity

2+10(0.14)
=3.4*1.15
=3.91 H/s dissipation

Currently
50+10(1.1)
=61*1.2
=73.2 heat capacity

2+10(1.5)
=3.5*1.15
=4.025 H/s dissipation

Or comparatively,
73.2 VS 76.8 heat capacity, a sub-5% nerf to your heat cap, not even an ERML's worth, 3.6 heat

4.025 H/s dissipation VS 3.91 H/s dissipation, a ~3% increase, and a very tiny effect overall.


That's with 20 DHS, a typical amount for some builds, with laservomit going closer to 25.
If you have 10 TrueDubs? Entirely unaffected by any of it.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 26 March 2016 - 06:44 PM, said:

What you're missing is that specialization =limitation.

If you are purpose building a deck for a specific engagement, being a generalist puts you at a disadvantage against that deck. If you are not purpose build a deck for a specific engagement and forcing the battle to your strength, why are you not doing so? It is the most effective way to play the game...

Ask a comp team if they take a bunch of generalized builds, or if they specialize for a range bracket.

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To have an advantage as IS you have to accurately predict, build for and control the engagement. If you don't precognatively iidentify what is going to happen they're in a bad spot.

If you cannot do that...why are you playing against groups that can?

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Also it's a variety of tonnage so if you come heavy for 2 waves you've got to go light for 2. The Mauler is awesome on hot maps against assaults but slow and vulnerable to quick lights and brawlers.

A DW is worse than a mauler, and the small DPS advantage in the DW is worth much less than the mobility, high mounts, and FLD from the Mauler.

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Conversely Clan mechs excel at a wide range of engagement envelopes and situations. Natural synergy for speed and engagement range. Almost universally faster for the weight. You can take a brawling loadout and still be fine at medium range or an unexpected poke fight.

You should be building a specialized deck and forcing the engagement to your strength. If you are not doing that, then you are not doing it optimally.

It is quite simple, even for CW. You have a LR deck, a mid-range trading deck, and brawl deck setup and change according to the map you get. Kudos if you can get them out of the same chassis for familiarity...

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Don't get 300m from an Atlas. Boom. You win. Rush and circle the Mauler. Hit the Black Knight at 400m.

That Atlas is closing the gap using cover if you are in a brawl deck, you are on a map you are comfortable brawling in. If you are not comfortable brawling, bring a mid-range poking deck with BKs, etc. If you want LR like boreal, bring BLRs/STKs with ERLLs.

Boom. You win.

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Clan mechs are more aggressive and more flexible. You just have to be smart enough to use it. Teams that are dominate.

Teams that play Clan mechs well can get more out of IS mechs. I feel like I am talking in circles, as if you are not really reading what I am saying and just waiting to respond.

Mcgral18, on 26 March 2016 - 06:50 PM, said:

I'll assume 20 heatsinks

Previously, +1.4 heat, +0.14 H/s dissipation
Currently, +1.1 heat, +0.15 H/s dissipation

Previously
50+10(1.4)
=64*1.2
=76.8 heat capacity

2+10(0.14)
=3.4*1.15
=3.91 H/s dissipation

Currently
50+10(1.1)
=61*1.2
=73.2 heat capacity

2+10(1.5)
=3.5*1.15
=4.025 H/s dissipation

Or comparatively,
73.2 VS 76.8 heat capacity, a sub-5% nerf to your heat cap, not even an ERML's worth, 3.6 heat

4.025 H/s dissipation VS 3.91 H/s dissipation, a ~3% increase, and a very tiny effect overall.


That's with 20 DHS, a typical amount for some builds, with laservomit going closer to 25.
If you have 10 TrueDubs? Entirely unaffected by any of it.

As you said, if running laser vomit...25 DHS, it works out to roughly 5 heat.

That is assuming we are not talking about mechs like the 6 ERML HBR that could tote 29 DHS either...which would lose a full ERML worth of heat cap.

Edited by Gyrok, 26 March 2016 - 06:57 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, if you are shooting CT on A BK you're doing it wrong. Or GHR or QD for that matter.

Shoot the ST for a kill, a fast one. TBR rolls damage better if you're moving perpendicular to the target. Circle, don't face-hump. leaves target open for your teammates and makes it easier to protect your chin.

I'll shoot your ST out in 2 alphas. Give it a couple days so I have time and I'll duel you all night.

Plus quit ******* closing with IS brawlers. You've got a 200 range advantage both with LPLs v LPLs and Cermls vs MLs. Stay at 400-600m until he's a sneeze from death, then secure and move on.

Another popular option is 2xuac10 and 2 or 3 cermls. It's cooler but you need some trigger discipline or a macro. Hard to focus through the screenshake.

If you're in Clans you need to have shot him twice before you close. If you haven't then you need to adjust your approach. You have a range advantage over anything you can't out-face-tank. If you're throwing that away it's on you.

If I hang back and poke trade with Clans in my BK I'm an idiot and going to die. This isn't harder for one or the other. His ST is a smaller target than your CT but it's instant death. You have a 50% range advatage, are faster and more maneuverable. If you don't play to that it's you.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Lightfoot, on 26 March 2016 - 06:49 PM, said:

The Orion IIc even had it's arm missile launcher switched up to create an enormous left shoulder!

like this?

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, the point is that Clans, with better speed and engagement envelopes can almost always control where and how the engagement takes place. It's why the good teams run swarm and destroy brawlers and mid range.

I don't see MS or KCom or any of the other units rolling face here complaining. They've been the ones saying it's balanced. As AWOL of Wolf why they win. I get that you won't and wouldn't listen if they told you or showed you but it's not a hard one to work out.

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 26 March 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

like this?

Put an Orion IIC with missiles next to a regular Orion without missiles.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

MischiefSC, on 26 March 2016 - 07:06 PM, said:

Put an Orion IIC with missiles next to a regular Orion without missiles.

uh I cant I dont own a regular one

and if I just randomly grab a pic itll be a pain in the butt to match them up lol

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 26 March 2016 - 07:08 PM.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 26 March 2016 - 06:59 PM, said:

Gyrok, if you are shooting CT on A BK you're doing it wrong. Or GHR or QD for that matter.

Shoot the ST for a kill, a fast one. TBR rolls damage better if you're moving perpendicular to the target. Circle, don't face-hump. leaves target open for your teammates and makes it easier to protect your chin.

I'll shoot your ST out in 2 alphas. Give it a couple days so I have time and I'll duel you all night.

TBR rolls damage like **** at a perpendicular angle, I can shoot your CT from that angle. What?

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Plus quit ******* closing with IS brawlers. You've got a 200 range advantage both with LPLs v LPLs and Cermls vs MLs. Stay at 400-600m until he's a sneeze from death, then secure and move on.

With Range modules, IS ML is 324 = 648m effective

With range modules, CERML is 446m = ~718m effective

What 200m range advantage?

Besides, you do not close with brawlers period.

I am talking about complex tactics that seem to go over your head...like purpose building drop decks...and you assume I do not know base tactics for engagement ranges?

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Another popular option is 2xuac10 and 2 or 3 cermls. It's cooler but you need some trigger discipline or a macro. Hard to focus through the screenshake.

Not a great build, easy to cripple, and hot as hell. The ERMLs are pretty much a waste if you double tap the 10s often at all...

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If you're in Clans you need to have shot him twice before you close. If you haven't then you need to adjust your approach. You have a range advantage over anything you can't out-face-tank. If you're throwing that away it's on you.

Hmm...because there is no such thing as vertical cover in this game right? You always have a plain open field between you and the enemy all the time, right?

Oh! Wait...you have cover all over every map in the game, making BESM (a.k.a. brawling) a seriously legitimate tactic...and murderballs accordingly as effective.

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If I hang back and poke trade with Clans in my BK I'm an idiot and going to die. This isn't harder for one or the other. His ST is a smaller target than your CT but it's instant death. You have a 50% range advatage, are faster and more maneuverable. If you don't play to that it's you.

You are so doing it wrong. As a BK you poke at ~500m and let your LPLs with 438m effective range do most of the work. At 500m, you are trading about even with a clan mech since you have a bigger alpha, and more damage coming from ranged weapons that lose almost nothing at that range. ERMLs are already to ~70% effectiveness by ~500m because nerfed fall off.

MischiefSC, on 26 March 2016 - 07:06 PM, said:

Gyrok, the point is that Clans, with better speed and engagement envelopes can almost always control where and how the engagement takes place. It's why the good teams run swarm and destroy brawlers and mid range.

Yes, they take IS mechs and BESM.

The difference in speed is not significant enough if you can get close enough to clans to engage at optimal range...and closing to 400m is not a big issue at all on any map.

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I don't see MS or KCom or any of the other units rolling face here complaining. They've been the ones saying it's balanced. As AWOL of Wolf why they win. I get that you won't and wouldn't listen if they told you or showed you but it's not a hard one to work out.

We roll AWOL, most MS groups, and KCom is typically a tough battle, that goes either way.

Sure if you get like a SIG 8 man or something...yeah...but they run IS brawler decks going 80+ kph with 100 kph ECM toting GRFs. So closing range is no issue.