555 replies to this topic

[EAP10]

I find it's kind of annoying to go up against IS mechs in my clan mechs, but maybe that's just from counterattacking against them too much on boreal.

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 29 March 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

Actually, I would not mind all laser durations significantly lengthened and/or turned into on/off weapons (i.e. lasers keep firing until button is released).

While I disagree about durations (unless you're talking BOTH Clan and IS weapons), the continuous fire laser is kind of a neat idea... Though given the amount of laser boating and lack of fully defined heat affects table, could be something that would extremely abused without other significant mitigations...

[Gyrok]

Monodominant, on 29 March 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

Ok...

Back with some personal opionion based on empirical data.

In the recent sale I bought the Heavy Steam package. I originally considered it a very bad deal (36 euro for 2 mechs) but the fact that it had 30 days premium + some colors + 3000 MC + 5 million cbills tipped the scale. If I was going to buy something, might as well do that.

As I am a primarily IS player I started with the Thunderbolt. The mech comes basically as you see the 'best Thunderbolt 9SE' in metamechs optimisation thread. Triple LPL, 1 jump jet for a bit of maneuverability etc. etc.

I did... average with the mech. Nothing special and though I dont regret the purchase I would say its underwhelming.

And then... magic happened.

I tried the TBR C that comes with the pack.

Keep in mind its my first clan mech. I have Quickdraws, Banshees, Blackjacks, Commandos and have tried Jagers and a few other IS mechs but this was the first time I did more than a few matches in a clan mech.

Also keep in mind I am currently T4 final stretch (almost T3) and I consider myself an average - casual player.

Lastly keep in mind the mech is not mastered or even elited and although its a good build (2 x CLPL , 3 x CMPL) its not the 'optimised' from meta mechs due to me not having any other omnimech sides to add.

Well, in 4-5 hours of playing I had made 3-4 million CBills, I had gotten all the basic abilities unlocked and had an extra 11k xp on it and...

MY K/D ratio after 25 or so games is 1.77... now that might not mean a lot to you... but my favorite mechs before now have been my BJ-1 (K/D ration 1.51) , my Quickdraw 4H (K/D ratio 1.15) and my Banshee 3M (K/D 1.16).

Similarly the Games Won/ Games lost ratio for the TBR is better for it than for my long running mechs.

Every time I run the TBR I feel as if I am playing easy mode. Sure, I die and sure I overheat as I get to learn how to effectively use it but oh my god is there a difference. Its more durable than the Quickdraw but not more than the Banshee and its definetly more killy than both. Its fast (81 KMPH currently) and its sturdy. Oh and off course... LPL shooting out to 640 meters optimal is also amazing... thats longer than my LL on my Quickdraw!

So here you have it... I have been playing this game for 2-3 months and had focused on IS only... but the amount of awesome this mech has delivered in the 2 days I have played it is beyond any other mech. I am fully ready to accept I am a sucky player but then I cant explain how suddenly I became 'better' just by dropping in a TBR.

The though of doing CW with 3 x TBR and I guess a Jenner or a AC makes me giggle...

Laser vomit is literally the only saving grace for the TW.

If you run laser vomit, run it in prime config with 2 LPL in STs and 2 ERML in each arm...the TW rolls damage quite poorly...and once people actually learn to aim, they will literally remove parts of your mech handily in that mech.

The biggest thing you are seeing in the TW is the speed. It is literally a night and day difference between 74-75 kph and 80-82 kph.

You will see this more once you get speed tweak on the IS mechs. When that point comes, the difference between 82 and 87 is not significant enough to matter...

To be fair as well, the 9SE you have is an EZ mode mech too, but it does not hit as hard as the TW build you have.

The better option for IS heavies would be something like the WHM-6D, the BL-KNT-6 or 7-L, the GHR-5P or 5H, and some of the QKDs, but I have never liked the QKD, so I am unsure as to what is the current FOTM there...

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 29 March 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

But a Clan-wide nerf because the TBR came out extremely good was not?

I've yet to see any broad based Clan nerf that was a result of the TBR was 'too good'.

Quote

The Suckoner moniker did not come out of a vacuum.

Again, if you have issues with certain 'mechs, talk about those 'mechs. There's no need to buff entire weapon systems to FIX one 'mech either.

[Mystere]

Dimento Graven, on 29 March 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

I've long stated that Clans could be the original OP Lore values, IF, CW would support 10v12 drops in Clan vs. IS.

Of course the "stop gap" game modes of the Public Queue have since become the "main stay" of MWO and because of that we can't have an ACTUAL BT face off of 10v12.

The whole concept of balance in BT was Clan Tech vs. IS numbers.

<sigh> It saddens me to think of the game we could have had...

A very simple solution to the solo queue is forced Clan vs. IS, Clan vs. Clan, and IS vs. IS fights subject to player availability. This change is much more worthy of PGI's time and attention than all the endless reworking and tweaking of that darned matchmaker. But of course, large masses of total idiots expecting a matchmaker -- any matchmaker -- to put a stop to stomps aren't helping the situation any.

As I have been saying for a while now, the player base is at least half the source of MWO's woes.

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 29 March 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

...

As I have been saying for a while now, the player base is at least half the source of MWO's woes.

As evidenced in this thread...

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 March 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

And yet one sees more use in comp right now, I wonder if it is because the stats you listed are not the full picture.....

Of course they're not.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 March 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

SO do I, and the fact you posted trying to make the Timby look better than the BK is a bit disturbing, the BK beats the Timby at the mid range laser vomit. The only advantage of the Timby is that the LPL are still solid poke weapons that it can abuse, but competing at the same thing, sorry the BK is just better. Last night we had 5 BKs when MM decided to be drunk and stack SJR and EmP on the same team, we only had 2 Timbys and that was because I was being a hipster taking a Timby instead of yet another BK. That isn't an isolated incident either, it is common to take BKs or Grasshoppers for the mid range laser vomit.

Well said. We are in agreement.

Quote

I wouldn't go that far, if ghost heat weren't a thing the cLPL would actually be better imo, but the ghost heat being 3 for the iLPL allows it to be abused more in better circumstances, as well as the fact the iML combine better with the iLPL than cERML do with cLPL currently (due to the max range nerf on the cERML).

I think that ghost heat limitations, and all the factors contributing make the iLPL what it is...and it is the most OP energy weapon in the game.

In a vacuum, the cLPL is objectively better stat wise 1 to 1...but in game, with all the contributing factors, the iLPL is on top hands down.

Dimento Graven, on 29 March 2016 - 07:31 AM, said:

The player experience for a Tier 3 player vs. a Tier 1 player can be quite different, EVEN THOUGH the Tier 1 and Tier 3 player may often see each other in the public queues...

While insulting you for your lack of Tier disclosure isn't necessary, I think it's valid to be curious as your player experience seems to be so different from what known Tier 1 players have been reporting in this thread.

Really...hmm...so, I guess the comp guys agreeing with me are not T1 players...and the scrubs who have never even seen comp are somehow the "well known" tier 1 players?

Edited by Gyrok, 29 March 2016 - 07:50 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 29 March 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

...

I think that ghost heat limitations, and all the factors contributing make the iLPL what it is...and it is the most OP energy weapon in the game.

In a vacuum, the cLPL is objectively better stat wise 1 to 1...but in game, with all the contributing factors, the iLPL is on top hands down.

On certain 'mechs, not all.

I'd certainly NEVER bother to bring LPL's on my KGC, or Jaeger, or most of my 280 'mechs I own.

To me it sounds like your issues are more about LPLs on certain 'mechs, NOT that the LPL itself.

Quote

Really...hmm...so, I guess the comp guys agreeing with me are not T1 players...and the scrubs who have never even seen comp are somehow the "well known" tier 1 players?

There's the comp scene, then there's the other 99% of MWO.

You want to balance a game based on the 1%?!??!

I used to do comp but it became so god awful boring with 'mechs you just HAVE to bring or else you'd be smothered by FOTM meta 'mechs. THAT bothered me more than the fact that a majority of the RRB that wanted to do comp play weren't disciplined enough for it, which, man... THAT REALLY bothers me... Anyway I don't believe in balancing the game for the comp scene, I'd LOVE to balance it for CW, but acknowledge that 90% of game play is in the public queues so balancing for CW (at least until some SIGNIFICANT changes to public queue MM is made, ala Mystere's post) is not the best thing either.

That leaves us with having to use the Public Queues as our balance target.

It's disgusting, it's annoying, it's not fun for comp or CW, but that's the unfortunate reality of our situation.

Beyond that, I haven't seen too many in complete agreement with you, comp or otherwise.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 29 March 2016 - 07:58 AM.

[Mystere]

Dimento Graven, on 29 March 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

While I disagree about durations (unless you're talking BOTH Clan and IS weapons), ...

Yes, I was referring to both IS and Clan lasers. I want them to have different mechanics than ballistics.

Dimento Graven, on 29 March 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

... the continuous fire laser is kind of a neat idea... Though given the amount of laser boating and lack of fully defined heat affects table, could be something that would extremely abused without other significant mitigations...

There is a reason why I paired continuous-fire with significantly longer duration.

Edited by Mystere, 29 March 2016 - 08:13 AM.

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 29 March 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

On certain 'mechs, not all.

I'd certainly NEVER bother to bring LPL's on my KGC, or Jaeger, or most of my 280 'mechs I own.

To me it sounds like your issues are more about LPLs on certain 'mechs, NOT that the LPL itself.

Actually...let us consider this:

with 0.66 sec duration, the iLPL has damage per tick of 1.66, can be fired 3 at a time for a total damage per tick of 5

with 1.12 sec duration the cLPL has damage per tick of 1.18, can be fired 2 at a time for a total damage per tick of 2.36

Looking at those numbers objectively, for just a moment...without any quirks applied from any mech...do you see anything at all wrong with this picture?

Edited by Gyrok, 29 March 2016 - 08:01 AM.

[Ace Selin]

Dimento Graven, on 29 March 2016 - 07:31 AM, said:

While insulting you for your lack of Tier disclosure isn't necessary, I think it's valid to be curious as your player experience seems to be so different from what known Tier 1 players have been reporting in this thread.

This is what i was getting at, Tier 4/5 players all speak of how OP LRMs are, for all i know Gyrock is one of those same players. Player experience does appear to differ based on Tier and competition faced.



Gyrock seems to speak as if the Timber is an under-hive mech, whereas i have stated..."Timber ranks with the top mechs in the game equal to BK / Hopper in IS " I then posted my meta Timber and BK stats (those most easily obtained) in response to your post stating "the problem of the BKs powerful alpha " it was simply to show that the Timber has advantages of its own one of which is a strong alpha.

Edited by Ace Selin, 29 March 2016 - 08:05 AM.

[Mystere]

Dimento Graven, on 29 March 2016 - 07:47 AM, said:

As evidenced in this thread...

I'm not about to read 20+ pages to verify your claim.

Edited by Mystere, 29 March 2016 - 08:03 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Monodominant, on 29 March 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

Ok...

MY K/D ratio after 25 or so games is 1.79... now that might not mean a lot to you... but my favorite nd most played mechs before now have been my BJ-1 (K/D ration 1.51) , my Quickdraw 4H (K/D ratio 1.15) and my Banshee 3M (K/D 1.16).

Similarly the Games Won/ Games lost ratio for the TBR is better for it than for my long running mechs.

Every time I run the TBR I feel as if I am playing easy mode. Sure, I die and sure I overheat as I get to learn how to effectively use it but oh my god is there a difference. Its more durable than the Quickdraw but not more than the Banshee and its definetly more killy than both. Its fast (81 KMPH currently) and its sturdy. Oh and off course... LPL shooting out to 640 meters optimal is also amazing... thats longer than my LL on my Quickdraw!

So here you have it... I have been playing this game for 2-3 months and had focused on IS only... but the amount of awesome this mech has delivered in the 2 days I have played it is beyond any other mech. I am fully ready to accept I am a sucky player but then I cant explain how suddenly I became 'better' just by dropping in a TBR.

The though of doing CW with 3 x TBR and I guess a Jenner or a AC makes me giggle...

All though you are certainly entitled to say that you feel that the TBR is the easy button, the statistics that you use as evidence could be considered invalid. You have had many IS Mechs with which you learned to play the game. As you were learning you were probably dying a lot more and not initaially putting up impressive stats. You are now nearing Tier 3 so you have learned a lot of dos and don't which you take into the cockpit of the TBR when you join a game. It would be expected that you would do better because you are not making some of the mistakes that you made with the IS Mechs. It could also be that the TBR just suits your play style really well.

I have a similar experience. I started out playing IS and Clan mediums because that was what I thought suited me the best. More recently, I bought my first three heavies. My KDR and W/L ratio is much better in the 3 heavies than it is in any of the mediums that I thought were right for me. Is that because of the Mech or is it because I have learned to play better and eliminated the mistakes that I made when playing the other Mechs?

Even if you limit the comparison to just the Thunderbolt and the Timber Wolf you can still not say that the TBR is in fact the better or most OP Mech. You can say it is the better Mech for you and suits you the best and therefore you believe it is the easy button. That will not make it so for the rest of the player base.

I think the balance is a non issue. They are close enough. I do agree the short burn time of the IS laser on some Mechs is a bigger advantage than the IS pilots want to admit. You get your damage done quicker. You get more pinpoint damage as a result. You get into cover quicker or torso twist quicker and you begin cool down quicker so you can get your next shot off quicker. I still think it is not enough of an issue to worry about.

But if it wasn't for all the OP!!!, Nerf please, Is OP, Clan OP threads then this forum would be almost dead. So, by all means, carry on!

Edited by Rampage, 29 March 2016 - 08:08 AM.

[Gyrok]

Ace Selin, on 29 March 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

Gyrock seems to speak as if the Timber is an under-hive mech, whereas i have stated..."Timber ranks with the top mechs in the game equal to BK / Hopper in IS " I then posted my meta Timber and BK stats (those most easily obtained) in response to your post stating "the problem of the BKs powerful alpha " it was simply to show that the Timber has advantages of its own one of which is a strong alpha.

The BK and Hopper are not equal in IS. The BK is objectively better, and is, honestly, objectively the best heavy mech in the game.

If the BK is the top of tier 1 heavy mechs...the TW is the bottom of tier 1 heavy mechs.

The TW has no structure quirks, no energy weapon quirks, a slight mobility advantage over some other mechs, and weapons that have burn duration measured in years.

Sorry...the BK is objectively better at anything you would consider bringing a BK for...and the advantage of the big BK alpha is that it is to a single component with the half second-ish duration on the laser weapons.

Edited by Gyrok, 29 March 2016 - 08:07 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 29 March 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

Actually...let us consider this:

with 0.66 sec duration, the iLPL has damage per tick of 1.66, can be fired 3 at a time for a total damage per tick of 5

with 1.12 sec duration the cLPL has damage per tick of 1.18, can be fired 2 at a time for a total damage per tick of 2.36

Looking at those numbers objectively, for just a moment...without any quirks applied from any mech...do you see anything at all wrong with this picture?

When I consider size, weight, range, and the rest of the Clan systems that will be in play, no, I actually don't.

Regardless of the stats on that ONE weapon system, when the Clan weapons are placed in a Clan 'mech with all the benefits the Clan chassis receives, it's still VERY devastating.

The IS has a few 'mechs that can take advantage the stats to be on par or maybe even slightly better, ton for ton than their Clan equivalent.

BUT, I'm not one to unreasonably begrudge the IS having one or two stats matching, or even slightly exceeding the Clan's either.

Mystere, on 29 March 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

I'm not about to read 20+ pages to verify your claim.

LOL, and you know you don't need to, it's like the sun coming up in the East, it's an indisputable fact, and something you can count on regardless...

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 29 March 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

When I consider size, weight, range, and the rest of the Clan systems that will be in play, no, I actually don't.

Regardless of the stats on that ONE weapon system, when the Clan weapons are placed in a Clan 'mech with all the benefits the Clan chassis receives, it's still VERY devastating.

The IS has a few 'mechs that can take advantage the stats to be on par or maybe even slightly better, ton for ton than their Clan equivalent.

BUT, I'm not one to unreasonably begrudge the IS having one or two stats matching, or even slightly exceeding the Clan's either.

LOL, and you know you don't need to, it's like the sun coming up in the East, it's an indisputable fact, and something you can count on regardless...

The fact that you refuse to admit that the iLPL is an outlying offender by much more than any clan weapon is a bit absurd.

If the iLPL is fine, let us remove the fall off penalties to the medium and small class clan lasers since they are far less egregious offenders. Would you be fine with that?

Edited by Gyrok, 29 March 2016 - 08:11 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 29 March 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

...

If the BK is the top of tier 1 heavy mechs...the TW is the bottom of tier 1 heavy mechs.

...

So what this really isn't about "balance" per se, what it is really about is, your favorite 'mech, the TW, NOT being the king of Tier 1 heavies?

That's what I get from this latest post, and explains so many other odd opinions that you have...

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 29 March 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

The fact that you refuse to admit that the iLPL is an outlying offender by much more than any clan weapon is a bit absurd.

If the iLPL is fine, let us remove the fall off penalties to the medium and small class clan lasers since they are far less egregious offenders. Would you be fine with that?

And the fact that you nitpick to death ONE f'ing stat on ONE f'ing weapon shows that you're of the completely unreasonable crowd, any time any IS stat matches or exceeds Clans, "the sky is falling" for you.

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 29 March 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

So what this really isn't about "balance" per se, what it is really about is, your favorite 'mech, the TW, NOT being the king of Tier 1 heavies?

That's what I get from this latest post, and explains so many other odd opinions that you have...

LOL!

The TW is not even my favorite clan mech...you are grasping at straws.

My point was that the TW is a T1 mech, but it is far from best in show...

My personal favorite is the HBR...if you are curious...for clan mechs. Unremarkably, the WHM is my favorite IS mech...

People were getting the (incorrect) impression that I am saying the TW is garbage. Which was not at all what I was saying. My point was the TW is a good mech, but there are better options to do just about anything the TW can do.