555 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

I suggested advancing the timeline to make tech completely equal...

You said that was a terrible idea because "McGral no likey"...

I could not care less what you think...and the audience you get your approval from knows less than the Easter bunny about making video games.

So keep circle jerking to your XL engine plan...see how far that gets you...

You're the one mentioning it here, actually.

I've been silent about it recently, because PGI's gonna PGI.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 28 March 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

You're the one mentioning it here, actually.

I've been silent about it recently, because PGI's gonna PGI.

It seems you have not mentioned it specifically because you were more aware of pointing it out with it being called into question.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 28 March 2016 - 02:36 PM, said:

So, very little in comparison to the firepower being thrown about.
MAYBE one more alpha to cut off an ST?

Because, you know, they die when you shoot the XL ST.
16 across the Knights.
As high as 15 for the Archer.
14-16 Hammer
8-16 on the MAD

These days, you do not always take a full clean alpha, so many mechs are riding the heat line, sometimes they only get a partial poke, and twisting negates that even more. Plus, even the Whammy has better hit boxes than most clan mechs...

Plus, ballistic mechs do not have big alphas typically, lots of DPS...so there is that.

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I don't know about you, but my Alpha's tend to be in the 40+ region on anything that's not a Light. Mostly pinpoint.
Sure, it helps from time to time...and if you twist, that can add up to 50 HP on some of those robots...but you make that one mistake, and take a full alpha to the ST? You are dead.

40 is light...50+ typically...and you ride the redline all match to keep your damage output up. Sometimes you simply cannot alpha safely...so you poke with LPLs on chain fire, or MLs, or whatever you can squeeze out...

That extra structure comes into play quite a bit...especially as the match drags on and mechs have alphas half as big. You turn the corner on a 58 alpha BK...sure...but if you turn the corner on a 27 alpha TW that is crippled speed wise...? That is the dinner bell ringing calling you to finish that off...

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My Nova has 30 damage per arm, along with those HP quirks and a non-death ST.

I feel sorry for novas...they run around with builds like that running all those ERSLs, and the second they step out they lose a ST and have a 30 alpha for another 10 seconds until they lose their remaining arm, or ST and die...

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

These days, you do not always take a full clean alpha, so many mechs are riding the heat line, sometimes they only get a partial poke, and twisting negates that even more. Plus, even the Whammy has better hit boxes than most clan mechs...

Plus, ballistic mechs do not have big alphas typically, lots of DPS...so there is that.



40 is light...50+ typically...and you ride the redline all match to keep your damage output up. Sometimes you simply cannot alpha safely...so you poke with LPLs on chain fire, or MLs, or whatever you can squeeze out...

That extra structure comes into play quite a bit...especially as the match drags on and mechs have alphas half as big. You turn the corner on a 58 alpha BK...sure...but if you turn the corner on a 27 alpha TW that is crippled speed wise...? That is the dinner bell ringing calling you to finish that off...



I feel sorry for novas...they run around with builds like that running all those ERSLs, and the second they step out they lose a ST and have a 30 alpha for another 10 seconds until they lose their remaining arm, or ST and die...

You don't poke until you can alpha again...that's how it's supposed to work. You use the lesser firepower if you cannot poke, but you do NOT expose yourself to un-needed damage unless you can dish out more than you take.

What happens when you turn the corner onto the carcass of a dead BK because his ST was removed? Because he's dead...that's kinda what the XL difference is. Your Timby can still shoot.


So, let me get this straight...you're upset at Quirked Spheroid mechs...but not the Nova, who gets equal (or in many cases, GREATER) quirks...
I don't understand that. He doesn't get Endo, but he gets 2.5 tons of free Structure, along with less heat.

Edited by Mcgral18, 28 March 2016 - 02:59 PM.

[Mole]

I'm not going to read all of this, but I don't think it's so much that clan mechs are nerfed, even though they are a bit, but more so that IS 'mechs have just been insanely buffed with quirks because of how many tears were shed by IS players over the fact that clan tech is different and thus OP is cried every time an IS 'mech gets its face smashed in by a Clan pilot. And we all know how PGI caves to all the wrong community pressures and remains steadfast on the ones that actually need changing.

Edited by Mole, 28 March 2016 - 03:03 PM.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

-20% twist speed
-10 deg yaw angle (twist angle)
-5% accel/decel
-10% reverse speed

You are losing 20% speed and 10% angle, plus losing another chunk of accel/decel mobility...

That is significant...I swear it was 30%, but I double checked and we were both wrong, it is 20% and 10%

I would avoid using that combo. If I have to use the arms instead (in conjunction with the TBR-A's LT), it would be better for the Timberwolf instead of stacking those penalties ontop of 2 JJs for the energy torso... The high mounts are nice up to a certain point.

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At work, working from memory, forgive me if I miss one somewhere...

As for the rest of it...since the IIC mechs are worse than their omni counterparts, pretty much across the board (a few niche builds does not a new king of the hill make)...omnimechs are more than relevant. Clans do not even have decent battlemechs at all beyond the HBK-IIC and IIC-A, and 2 of the J-IICs. The KDK may change that...it may end up being a better EXE with no mobility in spite of MASC too...so we shall see I suppose. Knowing PGI, I would not hold my breath.

I don't think they are at all. Jenners outside of the Oxide are not even a consideration (I would run the IIC equivalent of laservomit instead of the IS Jenner) and the Hunchback IICs while not having any quirks still have better high mounts (because there are two "hunches" instead of one) for specific purposes.

Considering the Orion and Highlander have nearly zero play, their IIC counterparts share that fate (kinda like the Jenner, but not to the same degree - going 160kph in a Jenner-IIC has a slightly different niche).

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Except the most relevant clan mechs are still omnimechs, in spite of the supposed IIC advantage...

The problem that no one wants to admit is that the IIC mechs have to rely on clan weapons...weapons that have been nerfed so hard they have trouble with super quirked IS mechs using super quirked IS weapons.

Dude, if I could run Clan weapons on IS mechs, I would. So, don't give me that line. I would immediately remove multitudes of IS Meds and IS LL in favor of more CERMEDs in many situations. Heck, I'll take CSPL over ISMPL just for funsies. Don't get me started on running CMPL over ISLPL.

Don't even go there.

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Going 75 instead of 70 is not a huge victory...mind you...and you run less ammo/armor to get to that 225. I guess it depends on what you have as a personal life expectancy in that mech.

My preference is not being too slow to getting to the battle (plus positioning). Slowly myself down unnecessarily is why I don't like the stock engine (heck, if anyone is running a STD 200 on the original Hunchback, you may have a problem).

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Because it was so asininely broken that it was OP by a mile...that was the last time LRMs were legitimately a thing...which is to say they will never be that broken again.

Outside of lurmaggeddons? lol no

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If you drive lights/mediums, try that dakka shawk sometime...it is seriously a suppression machine. You have to work for the kills...but you can literally, single handedly, hold off an entire push with that 1 mech.

I am not annoyed by AC2 mechs. They tickle. Mechs with at least Tri-AC5s? I'll scatter like the winds.

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Or, you are the last one left/one of few left because your team effed up, or you get flanked by a lance of oxide/J-IIC and get a ST smoked while engaging a much larger force because your team is mostly dead, or you...

You get the idea...

That sounds more of an issue of situational play, than the problems that exist with IS/Clan XL engines.

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That is just it though, the structure quirks give IS XL mechs a good 2-3 more chances to make mistakes...what is enough?

Noooo... not even close. It's enough for an extra large alpha (and that's being generous as it's much lower than that). Clan XL allows for that damage to be reduced through damage transfer to the CT. I can literally deal with that.

Moldur, on 28 March 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

I am going to spew technical information without a real goal in mind, while lacing it with several biased assumptions stated as fact until an opponent attempts a rebuttal in the same fashion, at which point I will spew more technical information and assumptions. This battle of wits will go on like this until my opponent makes a critical error and fails to recall or procure a correct piece of data, at which point I will attack and show his glaring ignorance on the subject. Everyone shall then determine that I am the winner, and I will have contributed a great deal to the wealth of knowledge on MWO forums at the cost of potential thread derailment.

Welcome to MWO. Please enjoy the ForumWarrioring.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 28 March 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

You don't poke until you can alpha again...that's how it's supposed to work. You use the lesser firepower if you cannot poke, but you do NOT expose yourself to un-needed damage unless you can dish out more than you take.

What happens when you turn the corner onto the carcass of a dead BK because his ST was removed? Because he's dead...that's kinda what the XL difference is. Your Timby can still shoot.

Hmm...you have cover while pushing in a murderball? Do you bring an umbrella?

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So, let me get this straight...you're upset at Quirked Spheroid mechs...but not the Nova, who gets equal (or in many cases, GREATER) quirks...
I don't understand that. He doesn't get Endo, but he gets 2.5 tons of free Structure, along with less heat.

The nova was so terrible before, that the quirks is has make it marginally playable now.

I am not really even upset about the structure quirks on IS mechs, I am just tired of people saying IS is not strong right now...the whole for the IS is greater than the sum of the parts.

The IS is absolutely stronger than clans right now. Deny it all you want....clans need some minor bumps up somewhere to get the playing field level, or IS needs some minor adjustments downward.

I would prefer to see the tech evened out, but at this point, Clans are at a disadvantage, and many people will tell you that on the whole IS is stronger right now.

If you do not believe me, get out of this echo chamber and talk to actual comp units.

[Gas Guzzler]

Minor buffs to Clan mechs in certain areas I would agree with.

[Clownwarlord]

Are they really?

OK when clan mechs came out they or the Timber Wolf was the end all be all and so was the Stormcrow. So what happened before they came out that PGI did to help keep the clan being rained in? Well they locked the internals. PGI also had different concepts for the clan weapons (no switchable ammo, multiple rounds instead of 1, burn times, and other small changes).

So after the clans were released you still had some mechs that were beating up the competition, and so what did PGI do then? Well they made some changes to gauss (charge up), they made changes to heat penalties (ghost heat), they made changes to clan weapons (erll longer burn times and other changes), and then they added negative quirks (those red quirks).

NOW ... you ask why clans are so nerfed ... because they still in some cases are still over powering. Not all and not many they almost feel on par, and then there are some cases where clan mechs under perform. So ultimately this is a very fluid thing and it is for all mechs not just Clan. IS mechs go through this as well.

Example, IS had 6 ERPPC Stalkers which got nerfed by introducing heat penalties and by introducing heat damage. Other mechs got nerfs or weapons systems ... Dual AC20s have horrible heat. Gauss had its charge up because of pop tart. ERPPC and PPC have slowed shots because of pop tart.

So to just look at one side of a coin you are not getting the entire picture. As for my opinion on the subject of balance ... is the game balanced? NO. Will it ever be? Maybe, but doubtful because there is so much content and moving parts to have everything balanced is almost if not impossible. Do I believe PGI can do better, yes.

[Dimento Graven]

clownwarlord, on 28 March 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

So after the clans were released you still had some mechs that were beating up the competition, and so what did PGI do then? Well they made some changes to gauss (charge up)...

Actually, just to clarify this point, the charge up was added well before the Clans were added.

What changed for gauss was the limitation of only allowing 2 be fired simultaneously, specifically because, the DWF could mount 4.

[Mole]

I'm an IS player. But I own a lot of clan mechs. Clan mechs that I own: Adder, Arctic Cheetah, Jenner IIC, Kit Fox, Mist Lynx, Ice Ferret, Shadow Cat, Stormcrow, Hellbringer, Mad Dog, Summoner, Timber Wolf, Gargoyle, Warhawk. Which ones do I do well in? Every single one. Even the lowly Mist Lynx. Anyone who says Clan 'mechs have been nerfed to the point of not being perfectly good and viable mechs is some kind of special. Some of my best 'mechs are Clan.

[Clownwarlord]

Dimento Graven, on 28 March 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

Actually, just to clarify this point, the charge up was added well before the Clans were added.

What changed for gauss was the limitation of only allowing 2 be fired simultaneously, specifically because, the DWF could mount 4.

You are right, I had the gauss changes mixed up.

[Gyrok]

Mole, on 28 March 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

I'm an IS player. But I own a lot of clan mechs. Clan mechs that I own: Adder, Arctic Cheetah, Jenner IIC, Kit Fox, Mist Lynx, Ice Ferret, Shadow Cat, Stormcrow, Hellbringer, Mad Dog, Summoner, Timber Wolf, Gargoyle, Warhawk. Which ones do I do well in? Every single one. Even the lowly Mist Lynx.

Great, so you have anecdotal evidence that sub par mechs can be played well? That has zero relevance to a balance discussion. Thanks for playing.

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Anyone who says Clan 'mechs have been nerfed to the point of not being perfectly good and viable mechs is some kind of special. Some of my best 'mechs are Clan.

Thanks for not reading my posts, and/or being too ignorant to understand what I was saying.

Once again, thanks for playing...let the adults have a conversation now...go get some chocolate milk and go to bed little one.

[Mole]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 05:52 PM, said:

Great, so you have anecdotal evidence that sub par mechs can be played well? That has zero relevance to a balance discussion. Thanks for playing.



Thanks for not reading my posts, and/or being too ignorant to understand what I was saying.

Once again, thanks for playing...let the adults have a conversation now...go get some chocolate milk and go to bed little one.

I'm sorry, where exactly did I say I was speaking directly to you? I'm sorry to say that the world does not revolve around you.

[Gyrok]

clownwarlord, on 28 March 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

Are they really?

OK when clan mechs came out they or the Timber Wolf was the end all be all and so was the Stormcrow. So what happened before they came out that PGI did to help keep the clan being rained in? Well they locked the internals. PGI also had different concepts for the clan weapons (no switchable ammo, multiple rounds instead of 1, burn times, and other small changes).

Glad you are still hanging onto something from nearly 2 years ago. As you pointed out, things have changed since then.

Now, we are talking about now.

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So after the clans were released you still had some mechs that were beating up the competition, and so what did PGI do then? Well they made some changes to gauss (charge up), they made changes to heat penalties (ghost heat), they made changes to clan weapons (erll longer burn times and other changes), and then they added negative quirks (those red quirks).

That were heavy handed, and when combined with IS buffs, ended up tipping the scales too damn far, such to the point that just about everyone aside from the "clan mechs touched me in a bad place in a TT game 30 years ago" crowd was even willing to admit that.

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NOW ... you ask why clans are so nerfed ... because they still in some cases are still over powering. Not all and not many they almost feel on par, and then there are some cases where clan mechs under perform. So ultimately this is a very fluid thing and it is for all mechs not just Clan. IS mechs go through this as well.

Ok, so list where clans are now dominant over any available IS option, aside from the aforementioned, and well conceded point of 800m+ range.

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Example, IS had 6 ERPPC Stalkers which got nerfed by introducing heat penalties and by introducing heat damage. Other mechs got nerfs or weapons systems ... Dual AC20s have horrible heat. Gauss had its charge up because of pop tart. ERPPC and PPC have slowed shots because of pop tart.

ERPPC/PPC are about to get speed increased, again, and ERPPCs will have heat dropped 1 pt.

Gauss was further nerfed recently...in spite of not being OP prior to that.

Your point?

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So to just look at one side of a coin you are not getting the entire picture. As for my opinion on the subject of balance ... is the game balanced? NO. Will it ever be? Maybe, but doubtful because there is so much content and moving parts to have everything balanced is almost if not impossible. Do I believe PGI can do better, yes.

Not looking at one side of the coin.

IS is clearly stronger than the clans right now...so they must be in a good place.

I am not asking for blanket IS nerfs at all...am I?

In fact, I am asking for IS to get their "OP" clan tech equivalent and balance things rationally with equivalent tech.

I get push back from these forums when trying to bring relevant issues to light because neckbeards, and grognards, and people who remember clans from 2 years ago are fighting tooth and nail to get Clans to stay under the boot heel of the IS.

Sorry. Not going to sit aside and let it be that way.

[MischiefSC]

@Gyrok;

Genuinely and truly. Please. I'm totally serious here -

drop tags for a bit and go run with AWOL or MS. Put your ego aside for a bit. Those guys dominate in Clan mechs. My concern is that the underlying problem is that you don't do that well in Clan mechs. Not intended as an insult. I'm horrible in brawler lights - like insanely bad in them. If you asked me I'd say the Firestarter is crap; I could even give you numbers to 'prove it'. I'd be wrong though. The problem is that I'm terrible in lights. Just ******* terrible. I'm at peace with that and I've got a couple that work OK-ish.

That's just me though.

TBR is strong. Incredibly strong. So is the HBR and EBJ.

Hands down the best part of taking a mech bay tour and hopping from faction to faction, seeking out units to mooch off of/spy on/hang out with has been a huge boon for my understanding of mechs, builds and the game.

From what you're saying about your impressions of the TBR I think the problem is that you need to get better with it. In CW especially as it's a good place to see specific IS/Clan balance. I think you'll benefit a lot from it.

Just stay quiet, don't try to 'sell' anyone on anything, just drop with them. Put your ego aside - if you had nothing to learn from other units then your unit would be winning non-stop and crushing all opposition. You're not and that's okay. Really nobody is except 2 or 3 groups.

Go travel a bit and see how that plays out. I make that recommendation to anyone and everyone, no matter how good they are. Scrub to golden tier elite. It's a great way to learn how to play the game better.

[Eider]

are people still trying to argue that the easy mode clans are somehow up or something? My timbergod is still a timbergod and the top tier mechs of all catagories are still Clan. That says enough, but lets go through the usual. XL engies, better weapons/lighter with more range. GG. If you dont do well in them then it is just you. Period. But just for fun top catagories.. lights.. artic cheetos.. mediums crows are still good.. heavies timbergod still godly.. assaults direwhale with pedobear comming soon.

oh and spare me the lore defense on why they should be stronger, that went out the window when pgi decided to stick with 12 vs 12 .

Edited by Eider, 28 March 2016 - 07:57 PM.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 28 March 2016 - 06:44 PM, said:

@Gyrok;

Genuinely and truly. Please. I'm totally serious here -

drop tags for a bit and go run with AWOL or MS. Put your ego aside for a bit. Those guys dominate in Clan mechs. My concern is that the underlying problem is that you don't do that well in Clan mechs. Not intended as an insult. I'm horrible in brawler lights - like insanely bad in them. If you asked me I'd say the Firestarter is crap; I could even give you numbers to 'prove it'. I'd be wrong though. The problem is that I'm terrible in lights. Just ******* terrible. I'm at peace with that and I've got a couple that work OK-ish.

That's just me though.

TBR is strong. Incredibly strong. So is the HBR and EBJ.

Hands down the best part of taking a mech bay tour and hopping from faction to faction, seeking out units to mooch off of/spy on/hang out with has been a huge boon for my understanding of mechs, builds and the game.

From what you're saying about your impressions of the TBR I think the problem is that you need to get better with it. In CW especially as it's a good place to see specific IS/Clan balance. I think you'll benefit a lot from it.

Just stay quiet, don't try to 'sell' anyone on anything, just drop with them. Put your ego aside - if you had nothing to learn from other units then your unit would be winning non-stop and crushing all opposition. You're not and that's okay. Really nobody is except 2 or 3 groups.

Go travel a bit and see how that plays out. I make that recommendation to anyone and everyone, no matter how good they are. Scrub to golden tier elite. It's a great way to learn how to play the game better.

You're killing him with kindness. That's so OP.

[Clownwarlord]

@Gyrok

Cherry picking information one point at a time may be helpful for your argument, but it still shows that you are not looking at the bigger picture. Again I ask you read my statement as a whole instead of snipping at it.

All of the points I bring up about the nerfings have to be taken into account as well as the buffs to help counter balance because they build what we are at today. To discount one (even if it is 2 years ago) is not taking in the entire discussion and is cherry picking facts (like in politics putting spin on the subject).

Along with the point of just looking at clans being nerfed or buffed through out their time you also have to look at the continual nerfings and buffs that the IS mechs have had. Because again if you do not then you again are cherry picking facts.

Now for my opinion which is worth gold to me but maybe dust to you:

What is the best mech in the game? TBR or HBR, not just because of chassis but also because of clan weapons and their hard points.

Worst mech in game? Vindicator. How useless is this mech is shown by how few you see being played.

Also if you are just trying to get clans to be OP because of "lore" then this is a mute argument because this isn't a book or Table Top (which had its own way of handling the balance). This is a Online Shooter where having unbalanced "items and tools" while do happen are not good because eventually you will see the majority float to that "tool". This will ruin the game for a lot because it will then just be a simulator of the game where everyone gets in that chassis, everyone gets out the same build, and everyone starts getting bored. So balance is needed or at least sought after.

So good luck with your argument but I have to disagree with you because you keep cherry picking your facts, but I leave with these questions for you on the subject.

If you think IS are over powering, in what way? Is it a specific chassis? A specific weapon? Hard points? A specific set of quirks/buffs? Or specific set of nerfings for the clan mechs?

[TexAce]

Every time I read that thread title in the forum my brain automatically changes it to

"bohooo qq why are clan mechs balanced with IS mechs now, change it NAO! Bohooohoo qq"