555 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

I am looking at the tonnage required to eat the gap.

15 IS DHS = 20 CDHS = 33% gap

20 IS DHS = 25 CDHS = 25% gap

30 IS DHS = 35 CDHS = ~17% gap

So, the most practical comparison of those is 15 vs 20. Mostly because IS does not often mount 20 or more DHS, and clans typically do not mount over 25 in most cases. You have some exceptions there...but if we play the average between those 2, we end up at an average clan disparity around ~29-30% more tonnage required for DHS to get equal heat cap.

They are pointing at a different side of the equation...and neglecting to consider average heat per volley of each side as well.

Additionally, people keep jumping from tonnage, to crits, to cooling, to whatever else. As soon as I talk about the issue they are discussing, they change the angle of attack, and get on a different subject because it is no longer convenient to discuss a losing battle.

Your math is wrong.

A Clan Mech with a 250 engine with DHS has the same capacity as an IS mech with a 250 engine with DHS.

Once you get over that simple hurdle, then we can have a convo.

[Dimento Graven]

Deathlike, on 28 March 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Your math is wrong.

A Clan Mech with a 250 engine with DHS has the same capacity as an IS mech with a 250 engine with DHS.

Once you get over that simple hurdle, then we can have a convo.

Yes, he is forgetting that a STANDARD IS 250 is ALREADY 6 tons HEAVIER than the XL 250.

So, right there is MORE than the 5 ton difference the Clans have to make up.

God forbid the IS load an XL, they suffer the pain of losing 2 more crits (vs. the Clan XL), and an instant "game over" once the ST is popped. Unlike the Clanner who only has to deal with slower speed and extra heat, but will STILL be playing...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 28 March 2016 - 09:26 AM.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 28 March 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Your math is wrong.

A Clan Mech with a 250 engine with DHS has the same capacity as an IS mech with a 250 engine with DHS.

Once you get over that simple hurdle, then we can have a convo.

My math is not wrong, I am accommodating for true dubs, and never included them in the conversation to begin with. If you would follow the math instead of jumping to conclusions, you would see that.

Now, can we have a productive conversation, or are you going to keep shaking your fist and babbling about the last chapter while I teach the class?

Dimento Graven, on 28 March 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Yes, he is forgetting that a STANDARD IS 250 is ALREADY 6 tons HEAVIER than the XL 250.

So, right there is MORE than the 5 ton difference the Clans have to make up.

God forbid the IS load an XL, they suffer the pain of losing 2 more crits (vs. the Clan XL), and an instant "game over" once the ST is popped. Unlike the Clanner who only has to deal with slower speed and extra heat, but will STILL be playing...

That "instant game over" comes much more slowly in a mech like the WHM, ARC, BK, and anything else with structure quirks...let us not forget...many people consider IS and CXL to be equal now after structure quirks have been put into place...

EDIT: You are also glossing over, it is not dissipation clans are trying to catch up on...it is heat cap.

Meaning IS gets many more alphas typically than clans get....and last time I checked, the IS alphas are just as big or bigger than Clan alphas.

Edited by Gyrok, 28 March 2016 - 09:43 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

many people consider IS and CXL to be equal now after structure quirks have been put into place...

The structure quirks don't make them equal, the weapon quirks in combination with the weapons and structure quirks is what makes them even.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 March 2016 - 09:33 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

That "instant game over" comes much more slowly in a mech like the WHM, ARC, BK, and anything else with structure quirks...let us not forget...many people consider IS and CXL to be equal now after structure quirks have been put into place...

Gee Gyrok, does it take MORE or LESS time to blow through TWO Clan ST's or ONE Clan CT, vs ONE IS structure quirked ST?

Answer: Of course it's more to blow through the Clan's armor, don't be silly...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 28 March 2016 - 09:36 AM.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

My math is not wrong, I am accommodating for true dubs, and never included them in the conversation to begin with. If you would follow the math instead of jumping to conclusions, you would see that.

Now, can we have a productive conversation, or are you going to keep shaking your fist and babbling about the last chapter while I teach the class?

No, your math is still wrong.

For every 3 IS DHS consumed, you will need to add 1 more Clan DHS ontop of having the same # of IS DHS.

So, if you have 13 (3 external) IS DHS, to run the equivalent for Clans in terms of heat capacity, you would be running 14 (4 external) Clan DHS.

3*.4 (heat capacity difference between Clan vs IS DHS) = 1.2
1 external Clan DHS = 1.1 heat capacity

So, while it's not exactly equal, Clan DHS DOES gain more dissipation as a result (because you'll literally have more due to having more DHS), thus mostly negating that minute difference in DHS capacity. In this instance, the Clan Mech in my example having almost equal capacity gains .01 (dissipation difference between Clan vs IS DHS) * 3 and .15 (dissipation gain per Clan DHS) for a total of a .18 dissipation increase/difference.

Again, your math is still wrong.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 March 2016 - 09:41 AM.

[cazidin]

Something I proposed a long time ago was to make external heat sinks and DHS share a heat capacity of 1 or 1.2 with the only difference being Heat Dissipation. If one had the tonnage available they could mass standard heat sinks for great dissipation and fewer critical slots.

Back to C-DHS though, I think they should have a Heat Capacity of 1.2 per DHS. I wouldn't be opposed to IS DHS having 0.15 HD/S.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 06:21 AM, said:

This is why the EBJ over the TW. Everyone knows the Blackout Jag is a better config than this poor TW.

Additionally, when you mount the A-LT omnipod, you end up with that lovely -30% twist rate, and -10% twist...meaning your mobility is essentially offset by the JJs you gain to carry equal firepower to the EBJ which, while not having JJs, also does not have the mobility penalties...

I don't think anyone in comp would run such large a laservomit in trying to have the highest alpha. Sure it's there and good enough for pub play, but heat sustainability (DPS over time) is what makes it a really bad design choice.

Also, where the heck do you get your torso twist loss numbers? The worst case scenario is having 5 less torso radius ontop of 15% torso twist speed... I don't even know how you mathed that. In my build, it's just a 10% torso twist loss.

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Actually...Clans have to carry approximately 15 DHS to equal 10 IS DHS, as you go up in IS DHS the disparity grows largely. Which is where the 30% heat cap nerf number comes from. What is 33% of 15? 5 you say?

Also, mcgral's comparison is disingenuous, because he is not looking at the heat cap difference in the heatsinks to show the loss of heat cap, he is comparing to look for a number that suits his agenda.

IS DHS do + 1.5 to heat cap


Clan DHS do + 1.1 to heat cap.

What is the gap in heat cap per single DHS there? 30%? My god...it is almost like that was reflected in other numbers elsewhere!!!!!

You can manipulate things to make it seem your way all you want...the reality is anyone with a brain can manipulate the data.

Again, your math is wrong. I've already explained it, but it has to be said again.

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That makes the Gauss tougher? I am confused...what is your argument, initially you said Clan Gauss was tougher...both have virtually no hit points and 100% chance to be crit when hit.

Now you are talking about lower tonnage makes the Clan Gauss tougher? WTF?

I'll keep it simple for you.

The more crits a weapon has, the more easy it is to destroy it. There is good reason why the AC20 has 18 health (although, it's one of the few exceptions to the rule, because reasons).

Having 6 crits on a Clan Gauss Rifle makes the weapon more durable than the 7 crits on the IS Gauss Rifle.

It's simple as that. Since crit rolling depends on the # of slots consumed, durability is dictated by that.

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More RANGE? Have you ever tried to use a Narc? Legitimately? Range is not something I would be too concerned about...

Yes, it's still semi-garbage, but if it were a thing, it would actually matter.

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Sure...the chance to crit is less by 20-40% depending on how you manipulate the data...if it is you talking, probably about 20%, if it is mcgral talking, probably 40%.

Just consuming more slots increases the likelihood the item is destroyed. To simplify, IS ECM is twice as likely to be destroyed over Clan ECM, assuming all crit slots are filled with destructible equipment (this means FF/Endo is not factored into the crit math at all). This increases when there are less things are serving as a crit buffer and obviously pointless when nothing is crit buffering ECM.

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Ok, let us talk about structure quirks shall we? Range quirks? Duration quirks? Mobility quirks after clan agility was blanket nerfed and never restored? Speed loss on ST destruction?

See all the rest of that forest you keep overlooking yet? I am waiting...if I am ignorant of those tiny, pretty much irrelevant things...you are not seeing the real mountains in front of us.

When Clans initially debuted, TTK was only increased for Clans just on the nature of Clan DHS, and didn't actually positively affect IS. So as far as the Clan XL nerfs are concerned, they are more or less similar to current "quirked" IS mechs that need to run IS XL to stay competitive. This is not an ideal situation, but having no penalties previously on Clan XL is literally why it's too much of a good thing you refuse to ignore.

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To be quite honest...

TTK in BKs and WHMs right now is longer in my experience than it is in a Clan mech. You can at least maintain speed, and with the structure quirks, you can continue to spread damage to the point I often wonder how on earth my mech was still alive at the end of matches.

Sure, once you lose a ST you die...but you live so much longer with both torsos, that is really irrelevant. The speed loss to clans is absurd.

I would recommend removing that entirely from anything ever...leave clans at 20% heat penalty, and make IS LFEs 10% heat penalty...

The tonnage difference is still not a rough equivalent, especially all it signals is a IS STD transition to LFE almost across the board and doesn't make Clan XL any less desirable (if I could use Clan XL straight up in IS mechs, I would, and I wouldn't be complain about the "negative effects" to your degree).

Edited by Deathlike, 28 March 2016 - 10:07 AM.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 28 March 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

I don't think anyone in comp would run such large a laservomit in trying to have the highest alpha. Sure it's there and good enough for pub play, but heat sustainability (DPS over time) is what makes it a really bad design choice.

Also, where the heck do you get your torso twist loss numbers? The worst case scenario is having 5 less torso radius ontop of 15% torso twist speed... I don't even know how you mathed that. In my build, it's just a 10% torso twist loss.

Ask Quicksilver from SJR...he gave me the build from their comp deck.

S RT + A LT gives JJs plus 5E in torsos...this is the most popular comp config for energy boating. The mobility is drastically reduced per in game quirks.

EDIT: http://snafets.de/mwo/clan_quirks.htm

-20% yaw speed
-10 deg yaw angle
-5% accel/decel
-10% reverse speed

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Again, your math is wrong. I've already explained it, but it has to be said again.

Why then, at 20 DHS IS (10 external), does it require 4 more CDHS minimum to even be in the ball park?

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I'll keep it simple for you.

The more crits a weapon has, the more easy it is to destroy it. There is good reason why the AC20 has 18 health (although, it's one of the few exceptions to the rule, because reasons).

Having 6 crits on a Clan Gauss Rifle makes the weapon more durable than the 7 crits on the IS Gauss Rifle.

It's simple as that. Since crit rolling depends on the # of slots consumed, durability is dictated by that.

Thank you for regurgitating the point I spoke about 3 posts ago regarding an 8% higher chance to be critted in IS Gauss versus Clan Gauss...glad you are almost caught up.

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Yes, it's still semi-garbage, but if it were a thing, it would actually matter.

Considering LRMs were only ever good when they did splash damage, and splash damage was bugged...3.5 years ago...I doubt it would ever be a thing, and thus will never matter.

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Just consuming more slots increases the likelihood the item is destroyed. To simplify, IS ECM is twice as likely to be destroyed over Clan ECM, assuming all crit slots are filled with destructible equipment (this means FF/Endo is not factored into the crit math at all). This increases when there are less things are serving as a crit buffer and obviously pointless when nothing is crit buffering ECM.

True. However, ECM is the one situation where the increase is double. Most other scenarios a difference of 1 crit slot is not comparing a 1 crit slot item to a 2 crit slot item. The only other exception being the CERLL.

Now, what about the Clan UAC2 and LBX2 that take 2 and 3 crit slots respectively compared to IS AC2s that consume only one? In that case, the IS AC2 is 300% of the durability that the worst clan offender has, and 200% the worst clan offender has.

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When Clans initially debuted, TTK was only increased for Clans just on the nature of Clan DHS, and didn't actually positively affect IS. So as far as the Clan XL nerfs are concerned, they are more or less similar to current "quirked" IS mechs that need to run IS XL to stay competitive. This is not an ideal situation, but having no penalties previously on Clan XL is literally why it's too much of a good thing you refuse to ignore.

The heat penalties alone are enough.

In MWO, loss of mobility at this point is crippling. Especially when you are punished for being overengined in many mechs. Also, you have to consider, in many cases, if you are under such fire that you lose a ST, you are often basically dead already...so, those few instances where you are not already dead due to focus fire...being crippled to the point that you cannot reliably escape the issue is an undue penalty.

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The tonnage difference is still not a rough equivalent, especially all it signals is a IS STD transition to LFE almost across the board and doesn't make Clan XL any less desirable (if I could use Clan XL straight up in IS mechs, I would, and I wouldn't be complain about the "negative effects" to your degree).

I do not disagree with your assessment regarding a near universal transition to LFE. I do not see it as a bad thing, either.

The "negative effects" of Clan XLs are drastically more noticeable because clan mechs do not have structure/armor bonuses to buff their survivability to the level of a mech of considerably more tonnage. The few that do get it as a pity offering because they have such poor tonnage for weapons that the structure/armor bonuses are a drop in the bucket comparatively.

Edited by Gyrok, 28 March 2016 - 11:11 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

Ask Quicksilver from SJR...he gave me the build from their comp deck.

S RT + A LT gives JJs plus 5E in torsos...this is the most popular comp config for energy boating. The mobility is drastically reduced per in game quirks.

Well, its what I would run (actually dropped the A torso because I don't like the extra profile, so I only have 5 ERMLs), but that's just me, we don't force people to run it, its more of my preference and what I believe to be more worth it. Just wanted to clear that up a bit, because not everyone in SJR runs that, and Mag especially thinks its too hot (he is a butt tho).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 March 2016 - 11:05 AM.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

Ask Quicksilver from SJR...he gave me the build from their comp deck.

S RT + A LT gives JJs plus 5E in torsos...this is the most popular comp config for energy boating. The mobility is drastically reduced per in game quirks.

The math still doesn't support your argument. The penalties are not as high even in my stated "worst case scenario".

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Why then, at 20 DHS IS (10 external), does it require 4 more CDHS minimum to even be in the ball park?

Math.

Ideally, every optimal Clan Mech has Endo+FF. In the case of the IS, Endo+FF is a luxury for Lights, but Endo is the most practical. This is 14 crits saved compared to the optimal Clan combination. IS has a small handicap of "potentially lost tonnage freed up" due to this design. Dire Wolf is excluded because it uses a relatively "tiny" engine, thus not needing as greatly the benefits of Endo (let alone FF).

For every IS DHS, you are consuming +1 more crit than the equivalent Clan DHS.

So in my example.. we can expand it to 19 IS DHS (+9 external IS DHS) to 22 Clan DHS (+12 external Clan DHS).

In the consumption of crits, an IS mech has to consume 9 more crits while running strict Endo, while a Clan mech still has both Endo+FF (under most/ideal instances). So, while the 22 DHS Clan Mech has to consume 6 more crits from 3 more DHS, the IS mech is still under a loss of 3 crits. That's before we factor in tonnage consumed (while favoring IS, but crit consumption is more important when you're trying to fit stuff in - it has a greater consideration in bigger Clan Mechs than smaller ones).

It is arguably easier to fit in more DHS to a Clan Mech than an IS mech, assuming no arbitrary restrictions (like Omnimech rules) and while the Timberwolf is an Omnimech, it already has all the inherent benefits (Endo+FF) and you'll be running that many DHS anyways on the majority of its builds. While not every/any mech is on the Timberwolf's level, we do have to consider that when it comes to IIC building, this becomes more obvious (it doesn't mean the IIC mechs are OP, but building for them have obvious benefits despite not being quirked).

Thus, having the difference is almost inconsequential when you consider the builds accompanying high energy laservomit.

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Thank you for regurgitating the point I spoke about 3 posts ago regarding an 8% higher chance to be critted in IS Gauss versus Clan Gauss...glad you are almost caught up.

Yes, that's also why no IS medium mech can possibly run Dual Gauss unlike a Hunchback IIC (when used in the correct circumstances).

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Considering LRMs were only ever good when they did splash damage, and splash damage was bugged...3.5 years ago...I doubt it would ever be a thing, and thus will never matter.

Wat?

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True. However, ECM is the one situation where the increase is double. Most other scenarios a difference of 1 crit slot is not comparing a 1 crit slot item to a 2 crit slot item. The only other exception being the CERLL.

Now, what about the Clan UAC2 and LBX2 that take 2 and 3 crit slots respectively compared to IS AC2s that consume only one? In that case, the IS AC2 is 300% of the durability that the worst clan offender has, and 200% the worst clan offender has.

I don't think anyone has taken the "2-level ACs" very seriously. Then again, I don't see why the CLBX10 has the same stats as the ISLBX10 outside of crit+tonnage (not that the weapon is good, but to put into context how it makes no sense to have virtually the same stats when one is obviously better than the other in virtually every other way).

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The heat penalties alone are enough.

In MWO, loss of mobility at this point is crippling. Especially when you are punished for being overengined in many mechs. Also, you have to consider, in many cases, if you are under such fire that you lose a ST, you are often basically dead already...so, those few instances where you are not already dead due to focus fire...being crippled to the point that you cannot reliably escape the issue is an undue penalty.

If you're writing off a mech once it loses its ST, you are lost. That's on you. I've functioned OK (obviously not as great/optimally) and still manage to kill other things before I go down.

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I do not disagree with your assessment regarding a near universal transition to LFE. I do not see it as a bad thing, either.

The "negative effects" of Clan XLs are drastically more noticeable because clan mechs do not have structure/armor bonuses to buff their survivability to the level of a mech of considerably more tonnage. The few that do get it as a pity offering because they have such poor tonnage for weapons that the structure/armor bonuses are a drop in the bucket comparatively.

You're ignoring all the Clan mechs that do have structure/armor bonuses (usually the lesser popular ones) and noone is like saying the Ice Ferret is OP, especially with its technically elevated status in situations that you'd want one (fast Mediums that are not the Cicada). A lot of it still has to do with hitboxes and mech shape, but running something like an Adder in a limited scenario is a thing and yet we know it was still buffed quite a bit, to the point that it is a consideration despite all of its shortcomings.

I simply won't call "losing a side torso while using Clan XL" a crutch to provide an excuse about dying quickly.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 March 2016 - 11:15 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Deathlike, on 28 March 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Yes, that's also why no IS medium mech can possibly run Dual Gauss unlike a Hunchback IIC (when used in the correct circumstances).

Yes, the HBK IIC with dual gauss and two CERML can out Jaeger the Jaeger.

It has faster speed, longer reach on the ERML's, and can survive a side torso loss.

The ONLY mitigating factor with the HBK IIC is the limited ammo capacity (unless, as I vaguely recall, you're willing to sacrifice some speed for more ammo).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 28 March 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

Yes, the HBK IIC with dual gauss and two CERML can out Jaeger the Jaeger.

It has faster speed, longer reach on the ERML's, and can survive a side torso loss.

The ONLY mitigating factor with the HBK IIC is the limited ammo capacity (unless, as I vaguely recall, you're willing to sacrifice some speed for more ammo).

It is also much squishier despite the ability to survive a side torso loss, it also lacks the velocity/range quirks the Jager has that make it able to fight better in the extreme range bracket.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 March 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

It is also much squishier despite the ability to survive a side torso loss,

With its superior speed and mobility, it definitely MORE than closes the gap when piloted correctly.

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it also lacks the velocity/range quirks the Jager has that make it able to fight better in the extreme range bracket.

With superior speed and smaller profile, it's not overly difficult to close the minor distance differences the quirks afford some of the Jaegers.

Again, a dual gauss medium is very fun, the only reason to take a Jaeger over it is the difference in ammo capacity and arm mounted vs. torso mounted gauss...

When grouped and dropping in the public queues, and I'm relegated to weight insufficient for my KGC, it's a coin flip whether I take the Jaeger or the HBK-IIC.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 28 March 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

With its superior speed and mobility, it definitely MORE than closes the gap when piloted correctly.

Not really superior enough to make up for the fragility of having Gauss in a torso. It is solid, but not that great since there are better options for the HBK-IIC at that range given (3 LPL or 4 ERLL).

Dimento Graven, on 28 March 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

Again, a dual gauss medium is very fun, the only reason to take a Jaeger over it is the difference in ammo capacity and arm mounted vs. torso mounted gauss...

Actually it isn't just ammo capacity or arm mounted vs torso mounted, it is what the range of your engagement is, and for the range Gauss is useful at, the velocity and extra range help out a lot. If it went faster or was a little less squishy it would be a great extreme range heavy.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 March 2016 - 11:47 AM, said:

Not really superior enough to make up for the fragility of having Gauss in a torso. It is solid, but not that great since there are better options for the HBK-IIC at that range given (3 LPL or 4 ERLL).

Depends on what your goal is.

Mine is headshots, and quick kills.

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Actually it isn't just ammo capacity or arm mounted vs torso mounted, it is what the range of your engagement is, and for the range Gauss is useful at, the velocity and extra range help out a lot. If it went faster or was a little less squishy it would be a great extreme range heavy.

I guess we play differently. When I see the enemy, I don't just stop and fire, I get closer in, ~700-800 meters is optimal how I play.

To each his own.

[Gas Guzzler]

As someone who runs the dual gauss HBK-IIC in comp drops, I can say that it has no speed (unless you sacrifice lasers) that the Jager doesn't have, but those 2 ER MLs really add to its DPS. The Jager is definitely a better dual gauss mech. The difference is, the Jager occupies a Heavy slot (BK, GHR, TBR) while the Hunchie occupies a medium slot, where its mid-longe range firepower is hard to beat. That's really the only reason for taking it. I like running the mech, but it will fall apart if it starts to get over ran, is very soft and very slow, and only really thrives when it is the furthest mech away from the enemy team... or if you get high ground in Mining Collective and get completely ignored..

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 28 March 2016 - 12:06 PM.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 28 March 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

The math still doesn't support your argument. The penalties are not as high even in my stated "worst case scenario".

You missed it...you had S LT and A LT both, S LT has far less penalties...

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Math.

Ideally, every optimal Clan Mech has Endo+FF. In the case of the IS, Endo+FF is a luxury for Lights, but Endo is the most practical. This is 14 crits saved compared to the optimal Clan combination. IS has a small handicap of "potentially lost tonnage freed up" due to this design. Dire Wolf is excluded because it uses a relatively "tiny" engine, thus not needing as greatly the benefits of Endo (let alone FF).

For every IS DHS, you are consuming +1 more crit than the equivalent Clan DHS.

So in my example.. we can expand it to 19 IS DHS (+9 external IS DHS) to 22 Clan DHS (+12 external Clan DHS).

In the consumption of crits, an IS mech has to consume 9 more crits while running strict Endo, while a Clan mech still has both Endo+FF (under most/ideal instances). So, while the 22 DHS Clan Mech has to consume 6 more crits from 3 more DHS, the IS mech is still under a loss of 3 crits. That's before we factor in tonnage consumed (while favoring IS, but crit consumption is more important when you're trying to fit stuff in - it has a greater consideration in bigger Clan Mechs than smaller ones).

It is arguably easier to fit in more DHS to a Clan Mech than an IS mech, assuming no arbitrary restrictions (like Omnimech rules) and while the Timberwolf is an Omnimech, it already has all the inherent benefits (Endo+FF) and you'll be running that many DHS anyways on the majority of its builds. While not every/any mech is on the Timberwolf's level, we do have to consider that when it comes to IIC building, this becomes more obvious (it doesn't mean the IIC mechs are OP, but building for them have obvious benefits despite not being quirked).

Thus, having the difference is almost inconsequential when you consider the builds accompanying high energy laservomit.

Ideally?

Ok, let us list the mechs that have both ES/FF:

SCR
TW
EBJ
MDD
ADR
SHC
IFR
KFX
ACH

Of those, 4 are considered good, 2 average-ish, and two very niche mechs, and the last one was a joke to begin with...

Those that do not have either, or have FF alone?

DW
EXE
WHK
GAR
SMN
HBR
NVA
MLX

Out of those, the HBR is good, the DW is out of favor with heavily nerfed mobility and bad hit boxes, the EXE is a B/B+ mech, and everything else is a never was, or a never will be.

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Yes, that's also why no IS medium mech can possibly run Dual Gauss unlike a Hunchback IIC (when used in the correct circumstances).

To be fair, there are not any IS mediums that have the hardpoints to do that, period. The only one that does is the BJ, and it does not have enough tonnage.

Also, the Dual Gauss hunchie makes a LOT of sacrifices to run that...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aa319b267c6d62e

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Wat?

NARC, LRMs, never will be a thing...

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I don't think anyone has taken the "2-level ACs" very seriously. Then again, I don't see why the CLBX10 has the same stats as the ISLBX10 outside of crit+tonnage (not that the weapon is good, but to put into context how it makes no sense to have virtually the same stats when one is obviously better than the other in virtually every other way).

The 3x AC2 SHD-2H can fire them every 0.52 seconds once again...for 13 DPS sustained...just saying...

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If you're writing off a mech once it loses its ST, you are lost. That's on you. I've functioned OK (obviously not as great/optimally) and still manage to kill other things before I go down.

Not every time, but as often as not, losing a ST is already a death sentence...

I have had many matches where I did continue on and fight quite a bit more...I have had just as many where I died in a fireball right after losing my ST as well.

If you tell me something different, I would seriously doubt the validity of your claims.

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You're ignoring all the Clan mechs that do have structure/armor bonuses (usually the lesser popular ones) and noone is like saying the Ice Ferret is OP, especially with its technically elevated status in situations that you'd want one (fast Mediums that are not the Cicada). A lot of it still has to do with hitboxes and mech shape, but running something like an Adder in a limited scenario is a thing and yet we know it was still buffed quite a bit, to the point that it is a consideration despite all of its shortcomings.

Some of the bad clams are less bad now...but not such that they would be moved to "optimal" at all...just situationally useful...

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I simply won't call "losing a side torso while using Clan XL" a crutch to provide an excuse about dying quickly.

I refuse to say that structure quirks do not provide significantly improved, if not equal, longevity to IS mechs running XL engines...as compared to clans...and would even argue because that method does not hinder mobility, is honestly superior in many ways, because you do not suffer loss of mobility, you can be more proactive, and more involved in the fight for longer time.

Dimento Graven, on 28 March 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

With its superior speed and mobility, it definitely MORE than closes the gap when piloted correctly.

With superior speed and smaller profile, it's not overly difficult to close the minor distance differences the quirks afford some of the Jaegers.

Again, a dual gauss medium is very fun, the only reason to take a Jaeger over it is the difference in ammo capacity and arm mounted vs. torso mounted gauss...

When grouped and dropping in the public queues, and I'm relegated to weight insufficient for my KGC, it's a coin flip whether I take the Jaeger or the HBK-IIC.

If clan mechs are so OP, why are you not bringing a DW?

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 06:21 AM, said:

Actually...Clans have to carry approximately 15 DHS to equal 10 IS DHS, as you go up in IS DHS the disparity grows largely. Which is where the 30% heat cap nerf number comes from. What is 33% of 15? 5 you say?

Also, mcgral's comparison is disingenuous, because he is not looking at the heat cap difference in the heatsinks to show the loss of heat cap, he is comparing to look for a number that suits his agenda.

IS DHS do + 1.5 to heat cap


Clan DHS do + 1.1 to heat cap.

What is the gap in heat cap per single DHS there? 30%? My god...it is almost like that was reflected in other numbers elsewhere!!!!!

You can manipulate things to make it seem your way all you want...the reality is anyone with a brain can manipulate the data.




That makes the Gauss tougher? I am confused...what is your argument, initially you said Clan Gauss was tougher...both have virtually no hit points and 100% chance to be crit when hit.

Now you are talking about lower tonnage makes the Clan Gauss tougher? WTF?


Sure...the chance to crit is less by 20-40% depending on how you manipulate the data...if it is you talking, probably about 20%, if it is mcgral talking, probably 40%.

For someone who designs video games...your Math is terrible, and your critical thinking even worse.


You are seemingly trying to look at something in a vacuum, which is nearly as far from reality as you can get with heatsinks.
If you have a 250 engine, you have a 50/60 heat cap, period. The TrueDubs guarantee that.
The 0.3 heat difference (0.6% of the total) is very insignificant. That's why your "OMGWTFBBQ 30%" argument falls apart: It's very much number manipulation, while my Math is the Truth.
Pretty hypocritical, and hilarious, you call my Math out for being subjective.

My agenda is the whole, while yours is the part.



Here's some education on Crits:
http://mwomercs.com/...c-explanations/

If you don't want to bother educating yourself, here's a short breakdown:


That's what the old crit system (and possibly current, possibly not) worked. To calculate the percentage an item has to be Crit (praise be RNGeesus) is the number of slots the item is, divided by the number of total Crit-able slots in the component.
Take the Gauss rifle.
In an empty (or Endo+Ferro/CASE filled) torso, either faction' Gauss will have a 100% chance to be Crit.
Fill an otherwise empty torso up with half ton Gauss ammo, and (example HBK-2C VS 4G), the isGauss occupies 7/12 slots, a 58.3% chance to be Crit, while the cGauss has a 50% chance to be Crit at 6/12.

No way you can manipulate that, but hardwired Ferro/Endo slots do increase the chance for a Gauss to be destroyed.
See this Timby
The Torso cGauss has 66.7% chance to be Crit, due to being six of nine Crit-able slots, while the Arm is 6/11 or 54.5% chance to be Crit.

You can't manipulate those numbers (just choose the wrong hardpoint).



There you go, factual, non-agenda twisting data and information. I hope you understand why your argument is failing, because it's just a tiny part of the whole to support your own agenda.
Yes, the heat cap was reduced...no, it was not reduced 30%. At best, it was not affected at all (10 TrueDubs), at worst, you lose an ERML worth of heat. Remember, Spheroid mechs cannot mount enough heatsinks to really make a large difference. Dem slots (and untouchable actuators)

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

You missed it...you had S LT and A LT both, S LT has far less penalties...

I'm trying to refer to this specific statement you made...

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 06:21 AM, said:

This is why the EBJ over the TW. Everyone knows the Blackout Jag is a better config than this poor TW.

Additionally, when you mount the A-LT omnipod, you end up with that lovely -30% twist rate, and -10% twist...meaning your mobility is essentially offset by the JJs you gain to carry equal firepower to the EBJ which, while not having JJs, also does not have the mobility penalties...

Where the hell did you get such numbers?

I said specifically, at WORST, you could get 15% less torso twist speed and 5 degrees reduction of your torso twist (TBR-A LT + TBR-S RT).

Where you get 30% is beyond my comprehension.

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Ideally?

Ok, let us list the mechs that have both ES/FF:

SCR
TW
EBJ
MDD
ADR
SHC
IFR
KFX
ACH

Of those, 4 are considered good, 2 average-ish, and two very niche mechs, and the last one was a joke to begin with...

Somehow you added the MDD when that's not even the case.

I said in ideal circumstances (this primarily means a IIC mech and NOT an omnimech). So, lumping in all the bad omnimech designs does not fit the bill here. Noone really needs a 360CXL in an Ice Ferret, but we do, and we're stuck with it anyways. It's serviceable, but certainly not optimal.

The rest the bad Clan Mechs in that list are simply just squishy (bad scale most of the time) and often times have locked hardware (particularly the engines) that restrict how much more effective they could be w/o them (I would run an XL250 on a Cute Fox or Badder any day, every day, if it means avoiding the trudub sub-250 penalties).

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Those that do not have either, or have FF alone?

DW
EXE
WHK
GAR
SMN
HBR
NVA
MLX

Out of those, the HBR is good, the DW is out of favor with heavily nerfed mobility and bad hit boxes, the EXE is a B/B+ mech, and everything else is a never was, or a never will be.

Again, you overrate the DWF not being used at all (it does get used, but certainly not the first goto option and used when it makes sense to).

In the sad case of many of those mechs, including the Summoner, Gargoyle, and other... tonnage considerations through Omnimech rules is why they aren't even in the same convo as the Timberwolf, let alone the Hellbringer that has NEITHER FF or Endo. Hellbringer and Dire Wolf have tonnage.. many of the others are tonnage constrained and are limited.

Basically, when it comes to Clan Battlemechs the differences becomes obvious. Trying to skew your world view based on Omnimech limitations is faulty, because the deficiencies of the majority of Omnimech is simply total tonnage waste.

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To be fair, there are not any IS mediums that have the hardpoints to do that, period. The only one that does is the BJ, and it does not have enough tonnage.

Also, the Dual Gauss hunchie makes a LOT of sacrifices to run that...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aa319b267c6d62e

There are better builds than that. CXL225 is the better sweet spot than the stock CXL200. Sure you lose out on tonnage, but going at the speed of a Warhawk in a 50 tonner is asking for trouble.

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NARC, LRMs, never will be a thing...

Then why did you even mention the days when it did have stupid splash damage? The only times that it was a thing were the short lived lurmaggeddons. Otherwise, it wasn't a thing ever.

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The 3x AC2 SHD-2H can fire them every 0.52 seconds once again...for 13 DPS sustained...just saying...

It's garbage, even though I've seen them fielded in pub play. I'm sure it's fun, but it's garbage. AC2s have never been a real thing.

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Not every time, but as often as not, losing a ST is already a death sentence...

I have had many matches where I did continue on and fight quite a bit more...I have had just as many where I died in a fireball right after losing my ST as well.

If you tell me something different, I would seriously doubt the validity of your claims.

It's not a death sentence... it's only a crippling reminder that you potentially effed up.

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I refuse to say that structure quirks do not provide significantly improved, if not equal, longevity to IS mechs running XL engines...as compared to clans...and would even argue because that method does not hinder mobility, is honestly superior in many ways, because you do not suffer loss of mobility, you can be more proactive, and more involved in the fight for longer time.

Mistakes made with IS XL is permanent. Mistakes with Clan XL is delayed.

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If clan mechs are so OP, why are you not bringing a DW?

I run Lights?

Edited by Deathlike, 28 March 2016 - 12:41 PM.