555 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

...

If clan mechs are so OP, why are you not bringing a DW?

Two reasons, one of them should be obvious from my statements:

1. Cash! I tend to earn A LOT more with KGC's and Jaegers.
2. Speed/maneuverability - Because I'm limiting my alpha to two gauss and whatever two lasers are convenient, I don't have the classic DWF enormous 'alpha of death' to fend off anyone who gets too close. It's a waste of a DWF if you're not packing 80+ points of alpha power into it, it's supposed to hurt extremely bad if you get close to DWF, something that dual gauss/dual lasers won't do well in all circumstances, vs. multiple UAC's, LBX's, lasers that a DWF can sport.

Though... I do admit to still running the Gausszilla of 4xGauss DWF for funzies. It's GREAT up until someone who's intelligent about it realizes what I've done and takes advantage of the sacrifices you have to make to make it work.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 28 March 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

For someone who designs video games...your Math is terrible, and your critical thinking even worse.


You are seemingly trying to look at something in a vacuum, which is nearly as far from reality as you can get with heatsinks.
If you have a 250 engine, you have a 50/60 heat cap, period. The TrueDubs guarantee that.
The 0.3 heat difference (0.6% of the total) is very insignificant. That's why your "OMGWTFBBQ 30%" argument falls apart: It's very much number manipulation, while my Math is the Truth.
Pretty hypocritical, and hilarious, you call my Math out for being subjective.

My agenda is the whole, while yours is the part.



Here's some education on Crits:
http://mwomercs.com/...c-explanations/

If you don't want to bother educating yourself, here's a short breakdown:


That's what the old crit system (and possibly current, possibly not) worked. To calculate the percentage an item has to be Crit (praise be RNGeesus) is the number of slots the item is, divided by the number of total Crit-able slots in the component.
Take the Gauss rifle.
In an empty (or Endo+Ferro/CASE filled) torso, either faction' Gauss will have a 100% chance to be Crit.
Fill an otherwise empty torso up with half ton Gauss ammo, and (example HBK-2C VS 4G), the isGauss occupies 7/12 slots, a 58.3% chance to be Crit, while the cGauss has a 50% chance to be Crit at 6/12.

No way you can manipulate that, but hardwired Ferro/Endo slots do increase the chance for a Gauss to be destroyed.
See this Timby
The Torso cGauss has 66.7% chance to be Crit, due to being six of nine Crit-able slots, while the Arm is 6/11 or 54.5% chance to be Crit.

You can't manipulate those numbers (just choose the wrong hardpoint).

Wow...that is the same ~8% I said earlier...

It is almost as if you did not even bother to read what I said.

/mcgral

Reading to respond, not understand.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Wow...that is the same ~8% I said earlier...

It is almost as if you did not even bother to read what I said.

/mcgral

Reading to respond, not understand.

I've giving you some extra information, just so you can be enlightened.

As you put it:

Quote

If you want to make a mountain out of an ant hill...so be it.

As you whine about your 0.6% heat cap per heatsink.

Edited by Mcgral18, 28 March 2016 - 12:50 PM.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 28 March 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

I've giving you some extra information, just so you can be enlightened.

As you put it:

As you whine about your 0.6% heat cap per heatsink.

Well, my math comes to 1 more CDHS for every 3 IS DHS.

3 IS DHS ~= 4 Clan DHS

Damn that 1 ton... instead of wasting 1 more crit!

Wow, very hard.

[Adamski]

Deathlike, on 28 March 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

Well, my math comes to 1 more CDHS for every 3 IS DHS.

3 IS DHS ~= 4 Clan DHS

Damn that 1 ton... instead of wasting 1 more crit!

Wow, very hard.

Don't forget the extra cooling that comes from the extra DHS, which should work out to ~35% more cooling.

And Gyrok, the MDD has Standard structure, not Endo. And the MLX has both Endo & Ferro, it isn't missing either of those.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 28 March 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

Well, my math comes to 1 more CDHS for every 3 IS DHS.

3 IS DHS ~= 4 Clan DHS

Damn that 1 ton... instead of wasting 1 more crit!

Wow, very hard.

That is a much more logical way to look at it.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 28 March 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

I'm trying to refer to this specific statement you made...



Where the hell did you get such numbers?

I said specifically, at WORST, you could get 15% less torso twist speed and 5 degrees reduction of your torso twist (TBR-A LT + TBR-S RT).

Where you get 30% is beyond my comprehension.

-20% twist speed
-10 deg yaw angle (twist angle)
-5% accel/decel
-10% reverse speed

You are losing 20% speed and 10% angle, plus losing another chunk of accel/decel mobility...

That is significant...I swear it was 30%, but I double checked and we were both wrong, it is 20% and 10%

Quote

Somehow you added the MDD when that's not even the case.

I said in ideal circumstances (this primarily means a IIC mech and NOT an omnimech). So, lumping in all the bad omnimech designs does not fit the bill here. Noone really needs a 360CXL in an Ice Ferret, but we do, and we're stuck with it anyways. It's serviceable, but certainly not optimal.

The rest the bad Clan Mechs in that list are simply just squishy (bad scale most of the time) and often times have locked hardware (particularly the engines) that restrict how much more effective they could be w/o them (I would run an XL250 on a Cute Fox or Badder any day, every day, if it means avoiding the trudub sub-250 penalties).

At work, working from memory, forgive me if I miss one somewhere...

As for the rest of it...since the IIC mechs are worse than their omni counterparts, pretty much across the board (a few niche builds does not a new king of the hill make)...omnimechs are more than relevant. Clans do not even have decent battlemechs at all beyond the HBK-IIC and IIC-A, and 2 of the J-IICs. The KDK may change that...it may end up being a better EXE with no mobility in spite of MASC too...so we shall see I suppose. Knowing PGI, I would not hold my breath.

Quote

Again, you overrate the DWF not being used at all (it does get used, but certainly not the first goto option and used when it makes sense to).

In the sad case of many of those mechs, including the Summoner, Gargoyle, and other... tonnage considerations through Omnimech rules is why they aren't even in the same convo as the Timberwolf, let alone the Hellbringer that has NEITHER FF or Endo. Hellbringer and Dire Wolf have tonnage.. many of the others are tonnage constrained and are limited.

Basically, when it comes to Clan Battlemechs the differences becomes obvious. Trying to skew your world view based on Omnimech limitations is faulty, because the deficiencies of the majority of Omnimech is simply total tonnage waste.

Except the most relevant clan mechs are still omnimechs, in spite of the supposed IIC advantage...

The problem that no one wants to admit is that the IIC mechs have to rely on clan weapons...weapons that have been nerfed so hard they have trouble with super quirked IS mechs using super quirked IS weapons.

Quote

There are better builds than that. CXL225 is the better sweet spot than the stock CXL200. Sure you lose out on tonnage, but going at the speed of a Warhawk in a 50 tonner is asking for trouble.

Going 75 instead of 70 is not a huge victory...mind you...and you run less ammo/armor to get to that 225. I guess it depends on what you have as a personal life expectancy in that mech.

Quote

Then why did you even mention the days when it did have stupid splash damage? The only times that it was a thing were the short lived lurmaggeddons. Otherwise, it wasn't a thing ever.

Because it was so asininely broken that it was OP by a mile...that was the last time LRMs were legitimately a thing...which is to say they will never be that broken again.

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It's garbage, even though I've seen them fielded in pub play. I'm sure it's fun, but it's garbage. AC2s have never been a real thing.

If you drive lights/mediums, try that dakka shawk sometime...it is seriously a suppression machine. You have to work for the kills...but you can literally, single handedly, hold off an entire push with that 1 mech.

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It's not a death sentence... it's only a crippling reminder that you potentially effed up.

Or, you are the last one left/one of few left because your team effed up, or you get flanked by a lance of oxide/J-IIC and get a ST smoked while engaging a much larger force because your team is mostly dead, or you...

You get the idea...

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Mistakes made with IS XL is permanent. Mistakes with Clan XL is delayed.

That is just it though, the structure quirks give IS XL mechs a good 2-3 more chances to make mistakes...what is enough?

Quote

I run Lights?

Was not aimed at you (aimed at Dimento)...however...if you run lights, why the hell are you discussing heavy mechs?

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 28 March 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

I've giving you some extra information, just so you can be enlightened.

As you put it:

As you whine about your 0.6% heat cap per heatsink.

Whine some more about those structure quirks not being enough for IS XL engines...please...get nice and salty and talk about how everything should be boring mirror balance mcgral.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

Whine some more about those structure quirks not being enough for IS XL engines...please...get nice and salty and talk about how everything should be boring mirror balance mcgral.

Similar does not make it the same.


Hell of a lot better than anything you've suggested...which goes against your supposed credentials. Paul Tier development, I suppose.

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

Or, you are the last one left/one of few left because your team effed up, or you get flanked by a lance of oxide/J-IIC and get a ST smoked while engaging a much larger force because your team is mostly dead, or you...

You get the idea...

I get the idea that you won't be happy until you can single handedly eliminate 12 enemy IS 'mechs with a single Clan 'mech, even while missing an ST.

Regardless, still being alive after an ST loss is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE advantage otherwise.

Quote

That is just it though, the structure quirks give IS XL mechs a good 2-3 more chances to make mistakes...what is enough?

Hardly. Once the ST is gone, game over.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

That is just it though, the structure quirks give IS XL mechs a good 2-3 more chances to make mistakes...what is enough?

What is the average quirk?

What is the average alpha?


MAYBE half a mistake? Or a quarter? Most do not get much in the way or quirks, while the cXL allows for at least another full mistake.

[Dimento Graven]

Mcgral18, on 28 March 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

What is the average quirk?

What is the average alpha?


MAYBE half a mistake? Or a quarter? Most do not get much in the way or quirks, while the cXL allows for at least another full mistake.

Also, another thing to consider is that absolutely not EVERY IS 'mech gets torso quirks, and CERTAINLY, not 2x to 3x more ST structure's worth as implied by Gyrok's statement.

[Adamski]

Dimento Graven, on 28 March 2016 - 01:54 PM, said:

Also, another thing to consider is that absolutely not EVERY IS 'mech gets torso quirks, and CERTAINLY, not 2x to 3x more ST structure's worth as implied by Gyrok's statement.

I'm having trouble finding a mech with higher than 50% structure buff, and since Structure is only 50% of armor, that gives IS mechs at most a 25% boost to survivability. But like you said, many mechs don't receive any torso structure buffs at all.

[Moldur]

I am going to spew technical information without a real goal in mind, while lacing it with several biased assumptions stated as fact until an opponent attempts a rebuttal in the same fashion, at which point I will spew more technical information and assumptions. This battle of wits will go on like this until my opponent makes a critical error and fails to recall or procure a correct piece of data, at which point I will attack and show his glaring ignorance on the subject. Everyone shall then determine that I am the winner, and I will have contributed a great deal to the wealth of knowledge on MWO forums at the cost of potential thread derailment.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 28 March 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

What is the average quirk?

What is the average alpha?


MAYBE half a mistake? Or a quarter? Most do not get much in the way or quirks, while the cXL allows for at least another full mistake.

On recent mechs (BK/WHM/MAD/ARC)? most get +20-23 CT +14-19 ST + 9-13 LA/RA + 9-13 LL/RL

Alphas on those vary from low end being ~50 to the crazy SRM monster Archer with 78 firepower...

Edited by Gyrok, 28 March 2016 - 02:28 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

On recent mechs (BK/WHM/MAD/ARC)? most get +20-23 CT +14-19 ST + 9-13 LA/RA + 9-13 LL/RL

Alphas on those vary from low end being ~50 to the crazy SRM monster Archer with 78 firepower...

Yeah, and once the ST is gone, it's not half the fire power, slower speed, and a more heat, it's just DEAD.

HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE advantage.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 28 March 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

Hell of a lot better than anything you've suggested...which goes against your supposed credentials. Paul Tier development, I suppose.

I suggested advancing the timeline to make tech completely equal...

You said that was a terrible idea because "McGral no likey"...

I could not care less what you think...and the audience you get your approval from knows less than the Easter bunny about making video games.

So keep circle jerking to your XL engine plan...see how far that gets you...

Dimento Graven, on 28 March 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

Yeah, and once the ST is gone, it's not half the fire power, slower speed, and a more heat, it's just DEAD.

HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE advantage.

Better hit boxes called, they said you can pull your head out any time now and admit those mechs roll damage much better than any clan mech.

[Scout Derek]

This is still a thing?

...smh, arguing about XL engines now.... lol, don't mean to butt in, but all of the solutions, believe it or not, are theories, and only theories, until implemented.

Also, relax. Clamers always had better tech... least till PGI implements new XL engines for IS

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

On recent mechs (BK/WHM/MAD/ARC)? most get +20-23 CT +14-19 ST + 9-13 LA/RA + 9-13 LL/RL

Alphas on those vary from low end being ~50 to the crazy SRM monster Archer with 78 firepower...

So, very little in comparison to the firepower being thrown about.
MAYBE one more alpha to cut off an ST?

Because, you know, they die when you shoot the XL ST.
16 across the Knights.
As high as 15 for the Archer.
14-16 Hammer
8-16 on the MAD


I don't know about you, but my Alpha's tend to be in the 40+ region on anything that's not a Light. Mostly pinpoint.
Sure, it helps from time to time...and if you twist, that can add up to 50 HP on some of those robots...but you make that one mistake, and take a full alpha to the ST? You are dead.

My Nova has 30 damage per arm, along with those HP quirks and a non-death ST.

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

...

Better hit boxes called, they said you can pull your head out any time now and admit those mechs roll damage much better than any clan mech.

Sorry Chicken Little, rolling damage still gets you only so far, and even though some Clan 'mechs might do it a little less well than IS, it's still enough to SIGNIFICANTLY extend the life of a 'mech that can ALREADY survive an ST loss while having an XL loaded.

But please, I'm enjoying the "sky is falling" tirades, been some damn funny stuff being posted...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 28 March 2016 - 02:37 PM.