555 replies to this topic

[RebJohhny]

Best part of MWO is that now Clans are generally on par with IS, looking at the overall mech landscape.

PGI did a good job of making the IS & Clan mechs different enough yet overall really well and equally balanced, i actually applaud that they got balance so close, considering the varied nature of the mechs.

Edited by RebJohhny, 25 March 2016 - 11:23 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 25 March 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

I will pose a question to you then, since you are so confident.

Why are most comp decks bringing more IS than clan mechs, and in fact, only bring as many clan mechs as they do because there is a required minimum number of clan mechs in some leagues.

Were it not for those required minimums, many comp teams might not bother to bring any clan mechs, or perhaps 1 or 2 situationally.

So, if Clan tech is outright superior, why is IS tech the rule of the day in top competitive play where every advantage is required to win?

EDIT: Just FYI, as well, you NEVER see CERLLs in comp outside of very extreme cases on maps with lots of open ground.

Let me counter your question with one of my own:

If Clan 'mechs are just OH SO HORRIBLY BAD, why is it the Clans have such an apparently easy time marching down faction map?

[Moldur]

Because PGI threw lore out the window and decided that Clans and IS ought to be same-tier. I'm not complaining or arguing about that, but given this reality, there are those that still try to cling to lore and just ruin the game by inhibiting PGI from truly making the sides balanced, even though LORE DIED LONG AGO.

[Monodominant]

Its nice to have a lore element to your game but this is a PvP game... not a campaign based single player / co-op.

To me, its also funny how all the 'lore-lovers' tend to be Clan players like the OP wondering why are they not overpowered enough to walk through 100s of enemy IS mechs.

While I dont doubt that some Clan mechs suck and that they have their own problems, it is pretty clear that many of their mechs are ton for ton superior to the IS side equivalents.

To take 2 examples... Firestarter vs Arctic Cheetah and Timerwolf vs ANY IS HEAVY.

In general though this is a moot discussion. In a game with so many different mechs and different skill levels and different tactics, its almost impossible to just say one side is better than the other. It is after all , theoretically, a team game. Hence even the BEST mech out there will die in seconds to concentrated fire from ****** mechs or if a couple of lights sneak behind it and alpha it a few times (especially with the meta being to keep rear armor to a minimum to survive alphas at the front).

When I did my second account 'tour of Clan Mechs' I found myself kicking *** and taking names with much less effort than it took me to get decent with IS mechs... and I am far from decent with either. Should my empirical evidence be seen as the rule? Obviously not... cause... circumstances. Maybe I had amazing team mates or ****** opponents. Maybe I had a good day or maybe my connection was a tad bit better that day.

Regarding the question 'if they are so good, why do comp players only take the minimum' I have to say it is a strawman question. There are things like personal preference, expectations and the meta in place. These and other factors might be leading people to make the choices they make. You cant put a blanket statement ' cause they are better ' and treat it as the word of god.

[RedDevil]

Clan mechs suck because PGI decided to balance the game by tonnage and not by how good mechs are.

[Sjorpha]

RebJohhny, on 25 March 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

Best part of MWO is that now Clans are generally on par with IS, looking at the overall mech landscape.

PGI did a good job of making the IS & Clan mechs different enough yet overall really well and equally balanced, i actually applaud that they got balance so close, considering the varied nature of the mechs.

+1 Agree completely, props to PGI för that.

[Stargazzer811]

Monodominant, on 25 March 2016 - 01:34 PM, said:

Its nice to have a lore element to your game but this is a PvP game... not a campaign based single player / co-op.

To me, its also funny how all the 'lore-lovers' tend to be Clan players like the OP wondering why are they not overpowered enough to walk through 100s of enemy IS mechs.

While I dont doubt that some Clan mechs suck and that they have their own problems, it is pretty clear that many of their mechs are ton for ton superior to the IS side equivalents.

To take 2 examples... Firestarter vs Arctic Cheetah and Timerwolf vs ANY IS HEAVY.

In general though this is a moot discussion. In a game with so many different mechs and different skill levels and different tactics, its almost impossible to just say one side is better than the other. It is after all , theoretically, a team game. Hence even the BEST mech out there will die in seconds to concentrated fire from ****** mechs or if a couple of lights sneak behind it and alpha it a few times (especially with the meta being to keep rear armor to a minimum to survive alphas at the front).

When I did my second account 'tour of Clan Mechs' I found myself kicking *** and taking names with much less effort than it took me to get decent with IS mechs... and I am far from decent with either. Should my empirical evidence be seen as the rule? Obviously not... cause... circumstances. Maybe I had amazing team mates or ****** opponents. Maybe I had a good day or maybe my connection was a tad bit better that day.

Regarding the question 'if they are so good, why do comp players only take the minimum' I have to say it is a strawman question. There are things like personal preference, expectations and the meta in place. These and other factors might be leading people to make the choices they make. You cant put a blanket statement ' cause they are better ' and treat it as the word of god.

You do make some valid points, several of which I have pointed out as well. This game should be about skill of the players, and while that is more often then not the case, several of the Clan mechs do actually need the help. Clans have 21 mechs counting the Kodiak. IS has 30+ mechs, so a lack of mechs combined with over nerfing in key areas has in fact affected the Clan mechs.

Dimento Graven, on 25 March 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

Let me counter your question with one of my own:

If Clan 'mechs are just OH SO HORRIBLY BAD, why is it the Clans have such an apparently easy time marching down faction map?

More then likely as Mono pointed out, that is due to pilot skill. It's also probably due to you facing a Clan unit or one of the Merc units when they fought for the Clans, like MS or KCom. Clan mechs might have weapons advantage with range and they might be faster and able to survive having their torso's taken clean off, but that doesn't mean armor is balance across tonnage with their IS counterparts. Which might I add, is what many Clan players are looking for, balance.

Sjorpha, on 25 March 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

+1 Agree completely, props to PGI för that.

I will agree that our weapons are rather closely balanced which is very nice. Both sides can do a good amount of damage depending on mech, loadout, and pilot skill. However I cannot agree that the mechs are 100% completely balanced. A few may be yes, but not all.

I can say with little doubt that when the Kodiak comes out in 2 months time, a forum for it will go up asking it to be nerfed into a teddy bear because people won't be able to use a Griffin to take it down. To that I say, please don't whine, just train your hardest and use tactics, work as a team. You'd be surprised how much you can do.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Clans at once point (introduction) were superior, then quirks™ happened, followed by clan nerfs.

Lots of IS MEGA quirks and Clan nerfs later, you have what we have now.

[Adamski]

Gyrok, on 25 March 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

NEWS FLASH: IS Assaults like the famed Battlemaster are more mobile than Clan assaults like the WHK, DW, HGN-IIC, and if we discount MASC not being usable full time, the EXE.

Proof: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c9ec22e6e6a66de

Mechs like that were what you saw continually. 82 kph long range poking mechs that can outmaneuver clans with no issues.

Now that your argument is obliterated by facts...let us hear some more BS about how clans are OP from the resident BS artist.

How ******* dumb are you? Just save yourself 10 tons, and take a TBR with 4x cERLL 3xcERSL and a TC1 to get more DPS at a longer range, while still not being completely helpless at short range, being able to use arm mounts to hit UAV, being faster, and being less fragile.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...964d820b40f19ea

Edited by Adamski, 25 March 2016 - 03:47 PM.

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 25 March 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

Let me counter your question with one of my own:

If Clan 'mechs are just OH SO HORRIBLY BAD, why is it the Clans have such an apparently easy time marching down faction map?

Have you looked at the map?

Clans are marching nowhere...

If IS is so underpowered, why are clans not advancing?

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 25 March 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

Have you looked at the map?

Clans are marching nowhere...

If IS is so underpowered, why are clans not advancing?

Help explain that to CSJ.

Also, do Clans have more or less worlds than they started with?

[Gyrok]

Adamski, on 25 March 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

How ******* dumb are you? Just save yourself 10 tons, and take a TBR with 4x cERLL 3xcERSL and a TC1 to get more DPS at a longer range, while still not being completely helpless at short range, being able to use arm mounts to hit UAV, being faster, and being less fragile.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...964d820b40f19ea

How ******* dumb are you? The BLR and STK out trade the TW easily, and your ERSLs do nothing to change that at range.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 25 March 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

Help explain that to CSJ.

Also, do Clans have more or less worlds than they started with?

CSJ was propped up by -MS-...who is now taking back worlds for the IS, which is now advancing without the slightest slow down.

Look at the rest of the map.

Edited by Gyrok, 25 March 2016 - 05:48 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Gauss, or go home.






:-)

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 25 March 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

CSJ was propped up by -MS-...who is now taking back worlds for the IS, which is now advancing without the slightest slow down.

Look at the rest of the map.

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 25 March 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

CSJ was propped up by -MS-...who is now taking back worlds for the IS, which is now advancing without the slightest slow down.

Look at the rest of the map.

MS is back in CSJ.

Do other Clan factions have more or less than starting worlds?

Help me understand how MS takes worlds while CSJ without using Clan mechs? How are you proposing MS takes worlds that differs from how everyone else has to do it? Do mechs not matter for MS?

Do you know anything g about the actual populations involved? Because I could give you a reasonably accurateaaccounting of 12mans filled by faction in each ceasefire.

Gyrok, you're wrong. Demonstratively wrong. However you're not going to accept that regardless of data presented so arguing it with you isn't productive.

Sorry you feel persecuted though.

[McHoshi]

So where´s my popcorn... ( Damn it the show is just over i guess )

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 25 March 2016 - 06:16 PM, said:

MS is back in CSJ.

Do other Clan factions have more or less than starting worlds?

Help me understand how MS takes worlds while CSJ without using Clan mechs? How are you proposing MS takes worlds that differs from how everyone else has to do it? Do mechs not matter for MS?

Do you know anything g about the actual populations involved? Because I could give you a reasonably accurateaaccounting of 12mans filled by faction in each ceasefire.

Gyrok, you're wrong. Demonstratively wrong. However you're not going to accept that regardless of data presented so arguing it with you isn't productive.

Sorry you feel persecuted though.

Clan Wolf has less then the 11 they started with...(by 10)

Clan Jade Falcon has less than the 8 they started with...(by 7)

Clan Ghost Bear has a few more than they started with, due to 228th playing CGB.

Clan Smoke Jaguar has more than they started with, due to -MS- playing CSJ.

Edited by Gyrok, 25 March 2016 - 07:17 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 25 March 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

Clan Wolf has less then the 11 they started with...(by 10)

Clan Jade Falcon has less than the 8 they started with...(by 7)

Clan Ghost Bear has a few more than they started with, due to 228th playing CGB.

Clan Smoke Jaguar has more than they started with, due to -MS- playing CSJ.

Not sure how you math.

Clans start with just a couple worlds.

Are you saying wins by good teams don't count? That to be a "fair measure" the Clans have to take worlds with pug drops and mediocre units?

Who do you think takes worlds on IS side?

Again, what does MS have to do with anything? Do they have special mechs available?

******* MS. Always with the HAX and special treatment.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 25 March 2016 - 06:16 PM, said:

MS is back in CSJ.

Do other Clan factions have more or less than starting worlds?

Help me understand how MS takes worlds while CSJ without using Clan mechs? How are you proposing MS takes worlds that differs from how everyone else has to do it? Do mechs not matter for MS?

12 mans vs PUGs.

Do the math.

If 12 mans were allowed in the solo queue, what do you expect the results would be?

Quote

Do you know anything g about the actual populations involved? Because I could give you a reasonably accurateaaccounting of 12mans filled by faction in each ceasefire.

Gyrok, you're wrong. Demonstratively wrong. However you're not going to accept that regardless of data presented so arguing it with you isn't productive.

Sorry you feel persecuted though.

I am not going to accept I am wrong, because I can demonstrably show that the only 2 clans taking worlds are large CW units mowing through PUGs.

Guess what happens when 228th/MS meet an organized IS unit...? They lose when the IS team is of their skill level, and as well organized. If you doubt me...ask them who is more powerful at the moment...they are not afraid to say it.

Look at who is running clan tags in those factions...NS/228th in CGB, and MS in CSJ. Those are the only 2 clans taking worlds, and it is driven by those units mowing down PUGs...nothing more.

CW is a terrible arena to try to project balance decisions upon.