555 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

1.1 vs 1.5?

-.-

That is worse than I thought...30% less?

Oh noes, that 6% difference!

Let's calculate 30 DHS, because why not.

Prev
50+20(1.4)
=78*1.2
=93.6 heat cap

2+20(0.14)
=4.8
=5.52 H/s

current

50+20(1.1)
=72*1.2
=86.4

2+20(0.15)
=5*1.15
=5.75 H/s

So, losing 7.2 (8%) heat cap for 0.23 (4%) bonus H/s

Not exactly catastrophic, as few effective builds can carry that many. 25 is the high end (with that one Loki build and WubHawk on the 28-29 side).


You'll note Clam mechs can carry far more heatsinks than most of their Spheroid counterparts. My Nova can pack more than any Hunch (2C aside, of course) with more than adequate firepower. Even IS Assaults struggle to mount 20DHS (due to slot restrictions) while my Nova can do 23 without difficulty. Quirks offset that to a point, but the dissipation isn't comparable, as I don't believe any mech has a heat dissipation quirk at this point (they do exist).

It's barely a change at all, but you mention it like it's the worst change that has afflicted Clams (cSPL extended range nerf, IMO, one of the larger ones, along with the smaller laser heat increases), while it barely did anything.

[Mcgral18]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 26 March 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

Ok I got one



as close as I can get

looks pretty significant to me tho

An LRM20 increases it a bit, but the ARM LRM launcher is what really increases the size (that's the shoulder).
It also has far more tubes.

Edited by Mcgral18, 26 March 2016 - 09:59 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Mcgral18, on 26 March 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

An LRM20 increases it a bit, but the ARM LRM launcher is what really increases the size (that's the shoulder).
It also has far more tubes.

So now do one without missiles. Standard AC20 + lasers on the Onion and whatever the standard best non-missile Orion IIC build is. I don't have the IICs so can't compare.

Edited by MischiefSC, 26 March 2016 - 10:29 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 26 March 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

like this?

Yes. Fear, not Battle Tech made the Orion IIc missile launchers 50 percent larger than needed and shifted the arm launcher to the shoulder where only the torso mounted launchers should be. The Orion VA carries A-LRM 30 or LRM 35 in it's arm just fine so it's already the standard location for the mech's arm missile hardpoints. End result: Orion IIc not playable with missiles due to the huge surface area this creates absorbing 50% more damage on average. The left arm literally explodes on the first volley normally. It's just too much nerf for the mech to function as would minimally be expected. The mech gets no structural buffs which is the only thing that makes the standard Orion playable. Players are left with no choice except, don't use missiles.

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

Clan DHS count for significantly less than IS DHS now...were you not aware?

SRMs require aiming skill...just FYI.



Clan weapons are hotter naturally...and clan DHS are worth less now naturally...meaning clans must have more DHS to get equal heat cap.



Class dismissed.

Weird, cause in my recollection Clan DHS have a higher heat dissipation than IS.

IS only gets a higher shut down threshold.

Or have you not reviewed Smurfy's lately?

[PraetorGix]

While I think clan balance is almost ok, I lately have been noticing that heat management is one of the biggest factors when comparing both factions, and there IS wins hands down. What good is more tonnage for lighter weapons when you cannot fire them, and the ones you do fire are always throwing a lower DPS than IS counterparts?
Yes, Clan also has more range you will say, but c´mon, what enemy just sits at the end of your CERLL waiting for you to melt him? Range advantage is not an important factor in balance IMO.
All in all the "tankiness" of IS mechs could be a good approach, but with the heat and DPS capacity clan has ATM, IS mechs end up being just too durable, and their higher DPS added to the fragility of Clan tech ends in an unbalanced scenario.

Edited by PraetorGix, 26 March 2016 - 11:00 PM.

[Stargazzer811]

I agree Lightfoot, Fear is what did it. It's that type of fear that keeps some IS players up at night, whining here on the forums because they can't ask for Clan mechs to be removed entirely from the game.

I also agree with Gix, heat is a massive issue with Clan Mechs and forces us to use less then out mech can carry which limits our DPS against IS mechs which in turn prove to be better armored and quirked further compounding our problems.

Here's the sad truth as far as the fear: The Clans are part of Battletech, so those who whine about it, get over it. Now. Because there are more Clan mechs coming. Wave 4 is probably already on the drawing board and will be out before the end of 2016. And if PGI is smart, when that happens they will bring the others back up in stats, then the Clans will be on par with the IS and we can all sit down for a nice chat. I personally will be air-mailing some Guass rounds to people as gifts.

Now that I have created this madness of a thread, I'm gonna sit back and let you all tear each other apart with your insignificant arguments about who knows Clan mechs and who does not, and whether the Mad Dog is good at using SRMs or not (it is btw, I run 4 SRM6s on mine and get several kills easy), and of course, whether people are smart or not.

Have nice lives folks, because next time some of us meet on the field of battle, it will yours and not mine that is cut short. *insert sound of Guass rifle charging and firing*

[Richter Kerensky]

Ahahaahahahhahaahahahahahaha.

[Deathlike]

I feel like I'm in some timewarp distortion field...

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 06:30 PM, said:

IS SRMs have tighter spread, the damage is negligible mostly. However, name me a clan mech that can tote 9 SRM packs...?

There isn't, but that's not what those Archers would be using in the first place.

The sanest optimal route for an Archer would be attempting to run something along the lines of 9 SRM4s... aka "SRM36". Of course you can sub in SRM6s, but they spread a lot more, and then you're compelled to run Artemis.. which then makes the tonnage consumption get out of whack for just launchers. Realistically 6 ASRM6 would be a better alternative at that point (with a lot more tonnage dedicated to that, losing some engine speed and DHS capacity while doing so).

Quote

Sheer volume of fire is going to be the king in the scenario, and the ARC will be devastating at it.

The Catapult was never a thing because the ears were as big a whole other mech, and it would easily get destroyed before it ever got close. Plus the hit boxes are unfavorable as well.

The ARC has none of those faults, and structure quirks that rival the BK and exceed the WHM...plus bay doors reduce incoming damage by 10% on the STs.

What are you talking about? The sides are SOFT. Seriously... SOFT. This is the effectively the same reverse argument you're using about the Timberwolf, except that's not even soft at all.

Quote

I am not saying the ARC will dominate comp, or that the ARC is even the best brawler mech. Not by a long shot...

What I am saying, is that in terms of SRM delivery platforms with armor and ~80 kph mobility, the ARC is the top of the heap right now...and there is no clan answer.

Agility, Mobility, and Durability is why I see Griffins used as the optimal SRM platform or the Oxide+Jenner IIC if you needed more speed. The whole point of dumping the playload and moving on is the first thing you want to do while brawling, as more unnecessary facetime is your own undoing.

While the Timberwolf is not the ideal platform, it has the speed to dump in a nice "ACSRM24" payload with the option of doing more damage or finishing off its target with lasers. Archers with any semblance of SRM boating are not going to be as fast no matter how you theorymech this.

Quote

Am I trying to justify a 9 missile clan mech? No.

What I am saying is that in a comp built around a potent brawl deck, if you are going to bring SRMs and want a high DPS purpose built frame for it...the ARC is the best option by a landslide.

A brawl deck needs mobility to get the heck in, and get the heck out. The Archer is simply NOT THAT MECH.

Quote

Am I saying the TW is a terrible brawler? No.

What I am saying is that it is not the best brawler, and is not even the best clan brawler.

Yes, it's also called a Stormcrow.

Quote

What the TW does well, and I have said it for a long time now, is do just about anything passably well. The TW is not exceptional at anything, but it is a B+/A- mech at just about everything, even LRMs.

There are better ballistic platforms, there are better laser platforms, there are better SRM platforms...but the TW can do any of it "well enough".

The Timberwolf excels at the blend of firepower and mobility... now if you get shot while not taking advantage of that, that's on you. I'm not sure what you're doing with your Timberwolves, but it's obviously not good enough.

Quote

I think you have misunderstood my intent, and the tone of my post because text conveys none of that. What I am trying to convey is that specialized IS builds will trump clan builds always...with the exception of extreme range 4 ERLL mechs, and even then, something like a 6 ERLL STK/BNC/BLR might make a run for the money there, simply because of the additional laser per volley...

I don't think you're specializing in Clan Mechs enough to see the picture that actual comp players are building decks around.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 26 March 2016 - 09:50 PM, said:

Oh noes, that 6% difference!

Let's calculate 30 DHS, because why not.

Prev
50+20(1.4)
=78*1.2
=93.6 heat cap

2+20(0.14)
=4.8
=5.52 H/s

current

50+20(1.1)
=72*1.2
=86.4

2+20(0.15)
=5*1.15
=5.75 H/s

So, losing 7.2 (8%) heat cap for 0.23 (4%) bonus H/s

Not exactly catastrophic, as few effective builds can carry that many. 25 is the high end (with that one Loki build and WubHawk on the 28-29 side).


You'll note Clam mechs can carry far more heatsinks than most of their Spheroid counterparts. My Nova can pack more than any Hunch (2C aside, of course) with more than adequate firepower. Even IS Assaults struggle to mount 20DHS (due to slot restrictions) while my Nova can do 23 without difficulty. Quirks offset that to a point, but the dissipation isn't comparable, as I don't believe any mech has a heat dissipation quirk at this point (they do exist).

It's barely a change at all, but you mention it like it's the worst change that has afflicted Clams (cSPL extended range nerf, IMO, one of the larger ones, along with the smaller laser heat increases), while it barely did anything.

Let us calculate 20 DHS for the IS shall we?

There are several mechs that can run that many...

50+20*1.5 = 80

2.0+10*.14 = 3.4 H/s

Now for the Clans

50+20*1.1 = 72

2.0+10*.15 = 3.5 H/s

Now...that shows for the same 20 DHS...the IS get a staggering 8 more heat cap and for all intents and purposes...the same dissipation.

McGral....How much BS is that? With 30 DHS, the clans are barely 5-6 over the 80 the IS get for 20 DHS.

Edited by Gyrok, 27 March 2016 - 06:04 AM.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 27 March 2016 - 02:21 AM, said:

I feel like I'm in some timewarp distortion field...



There isn't, but that's not what those Archers would be using in the first place.

The sanest optimal route for an Archer would be attempting to run something along the lines of 9 SRM4s... aka "SRM36". Of course you can sub in SRM6s, but they spread a lot more, and then you're compelled to run Artemis.. which then makes the tonnage consumption get out of whack for just launchers. Realistically 6 ASRM6 would be a better alternative at that point (with a lot more tonnage dedicated to that, losing some engine speed and DHS capacity while doing so).

9 SRM4 is going to be tight enough...

The Archer can move at 81-84 kph...any clan heavy will be moving 87. Not a huge difference here...

In fact: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1951f279cc9238d

There you go, runs cool, max engine cap, and plenty of ammo...

Quote

What are you talking about? The sides are SOFT. Seriously... SOFT. This is the effectively the same reverse argument you're using about the Timberwolf, except that's not even soft at all.

They WERE before they got structure buffs significant enough to make their STs significantly more durable than TW STs.

Do you own Archers?

Quote

Agility, Mobility, and Durability is why I see Griffins used as the optimal SRM platform or the Oxide+Jenner IIC if you needed more speed. The whole point of dumping the playload and moving on is the first thing you want to do while brawling, as more unnecessary facetime is your own undoing.

GRFs are great SRM mechs...while the 85 kph archer hits significantly harder...

Quote

While the Timberwolf is not the ideal platform, it has the speed to dump in a nice "ACSRM24" payload with the option of doing more damage or finishing off its target with lasers. Archers with any semblance of SRM boating are not going to be as fast no matter how you theorymech this.

Once again...84 kph ~ 87 kph

How hard is that to math?

Quote

A brawl deck needs mobility to get the heck in, and get the heck out. The Archer is simply NOT THAT MECH

84 kph

Quote

Yes, it's also called a Stormcrow.

ASRM30 @ 107 kph

Quote

The Timberwolf excels at the blend of firepower and mobility... now if you get shot while not taking advantage of that, that's on you. I'm not sure what you're doing with your Timberwolves, but it's obviously not good enough.

I am fine in my TWs...but I am playing lots of mechs, and it makes me realize that the TW is not really even a Tier 1 mech anymore. So many other mechs specialize to be better than the TW.

I am not sure how much you play TWs lately...but as someone who has over 1600 drops in TWs...I can assure you, if anyone is not doing it right, it is not going to be me.

Considering the wealth of my experience, I am inclined to believe that if anyone is not doing it right, it would be those accusing me of being incompetent. I am not saying the TW is a terrible mech...it is just not the best clan brawler, not the best clan long range mech, not the best clan poking mech, and is arguably not the best clan heavy anymore.

You guys can say what you want, think what you want, and act like you are badasses and I am an idiot...it is OK! The TW was one of my favorite all time mechs too, it is hard to admit it is not the best mech...I get it.

The reality is...the TW is great for being able to do a little bit of everything. It is terrible at specializing beyond lasers...

Quote

I don't think you're specializing in Clan Mechs enough to see the picture that actual comp players are building decks around.

I build clan mechs with a single purpose...I do not build "hybrids", I build them for a single range bracket. I think you are not playing enough other mechs to realize how strong they are comparatively.

Edited by Gyrok, 27 March 2016 - 06:21 AM.

[xe N on]

Just because someone mentioned speed as criteria for brawling... It's not necessarily only the speed that makes e.g. the GRF a good brawler. It's the agility and good hit boxes.

I prefer a GRF in brawl over a SCR, because of jump jets and shield arms. Even though the SCR is faster, I consider any GRF as better brawler.

The Atlas is at least considered as a good brawler. But even with a 350 STD it's only moving around 65 kph ...

PS: And in one thing Ragerok .. sorry Gyrok is right. The TBR is quite a solid mech, but only excel in gauss/laser peek a boo in an quite single build. In close distance ... there are other mechs that are better brawlers.* Dakka-build? No way for a TBR. Even in gauss/laser ... I would consider the EBJ at the same level or even better.

* One of the greatest drawback of the TBR in brawl is that it has no shield arms .. and a oversized engine. 325 or 350 would have been the sweet spot.

Edited by xe N on, 27 March 2016 - 10:39 AM.

[Sunstruck]

The Clans derived their technology from Star League mechs, so mechs like the King Crab and Atlas that Aleksandr Kerensky himself had a hand in designing should rightfully be on equal footing to anything the Clans have.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 27 March 2016 - 06:03 AM, said:

Let us calculate 20 DHS for the IS shall we?

There are several mechs that can run that many...

50+20*1.5 = 80

2.0+10*.14 = 3.4 H/s

Now for the Clans

50+20*1.1 = 72

2.0+10*.15 = 3.5 H/s

Now...that shows for the same 20 DHS...the IS get a staggering 8 more heat cap and for all intents and purposes...the same dissipation.

McGral....How much BS is that? With 30 DHS, the clans are barely 5-6 over the 80 the IS get for 20 DHS.

You posted 30 heatsinks, which NO Speroid mech can ever mount. Is the highest 23? Or 24? XL400 on a mech with no LAAs...which I don't believe exists at this point.
The 50 comes from the TrueDubs (20) and the base 30 cap.

Here's 20
Spheroid
50+10(1.5)
=65*1.2
=78 heat cap

2+10(1.4)
=3.4*1.15
=3.91 H/s

Clams
50+10(1.1)
=61*1.2
=73.2 heat capacity

2+10(1.5)
=3.5*1.15
=4.025 H/s dissipation


78 VS 72 Mount 25 and you have a 76 heat cap, nearly equalizing it with a slightly higher heat cap.
An ERML....STAGGERING, HOW WILL THE CLAMS SURVIVE?!

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 27 March 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

You posted 30 heatsinks, which NO Speroid mech can ever mount. Is the highest 23? Or 24? XL400 on a mech with no LAAs...which I don't believe exists at this point.
The 50 comes from the TrueDubs (20) and the base 30 cap.

Here's 20
Spheroid
50+10(1.5)
=65*1.2
=78 heat cap

2+10(1.4)
=3.4*1.15
=3.91 H/s

Clams
50+10(1.1)
=61*1.2
=73.2 heat capacity

2+10(1.5)
=3.5*1.15
=4.025 H/s dissipation


78 VS 72 Mount 25 and you have a 76 heat cap, nearly equalizing it with a slightly higher heat cap.
An ERML....STAGGERING, HOW WILL THE CLAMS SURVIVE?!

That is 5 tons of extra equipment to get almost equal heat cap.

Yet, you are going to turn around and argue about lighter equipment and less crit slots for clan weapons.

How can you not see how gimped a clan mech is by having to carry so many more DHS to get similar heat capacity?

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 27 March 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

That is 5 tons of extra equipment to get almost equal heat cap.

Yet, you are going to turn around and argue about lighter equipment and less crit slots for clan weapons.

How can you not see how gimped a clan mech is by having to carry so many more DHS to get similar heat capacity?

8% is not gimped.

It's not good, but it's hardly gamebreaking.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lighter/smaller Clan weapons make more heatsinks feasible, and then the increased dissipation helps as well (both from the higher dissipation per heat sink and the fact that their are more of them). Most competitive laser vomit builds in the IS side for instance typically bring 18-19 DHS. Clan laser vomit can fit 24-26.

I don't think there is really an issue there. Like I have said before, IS vs Clan balance feels pretty good right now.

7 slot endo/ferro also helps with tonnage/slot restrictions.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 27 March 2016 - 10:56 AM.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 27 March 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

9 SRM4 is going to be tight enough...

The Archer can move at 81-84 kph...any clan heavy will be moving 87. Not a huge difference here...

In fact: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1951f279cc9238d

There you go, runs cool, max engine cap, and plenty of ammo...

There is NO EFFING WAY you would want to run an Archer with an XL engine.

It's the equivalent of giving the Maddog IS XL. It's TTK tanks IMMEDIATELY under that scenario.

It's bad enough I'm already wrecking Archers during this event (however little I've played during this event) and still fail miserably as is.

Trying to full alpha the playload is a bad thing... you fight Ghost Heat (.5 second delay required) or you play the "stare game" (to avoid Ghost heat) like the fools that try to chain fire everything (usually lasers) to their target. It's just self-TTK lowering of the most fragile nature.

Quote

They WERE before they got structure buffs significant enough to make their STs significantly more durable than TW STs.

Do you own Archers?

No.

I simply know from experience shooting them - they were much softer before, and they are still rather soft now.

Quote

GRFs are great SRM mechs...while the 85 kph archer hits significantly harder...



Once again...84 kph ~ 87 kph

How hard is that to math?


84 kph

Again, you don't even realize that the comp-play Griffins run are using STANDARD Engines. Seriously, STANDARD. Some may get away with XL (3M has all its missiles on the left torso, which has a certain liability/risk to that), but anyways the structure quirks do allow for the mech to be very functional. I cannot say the same for the Archer.

Quote

I am fine in my TWs...but I am playing lots of mechs, and it makes me realize that the TW is not really even a Tier 1 mech anymore. So many other mechs specialize to be better than the TW.

I am not sure how much you play TWs lately...but as someone who has over 1600 drops in TWs...I can assure you, if anyone is not doing it right, it is not going to be me.

Considering the wealth of my experience, I am inclined to believe that if anyone is not doing it right, it would be those accusing me of being incompetent. I am not saying the TW is a terrible mech...it is just not the best clan brawler, not the best clan long range mech, not the best clan poking mech, and is arguably not the best clan heavy anymore.

You guys can say what you want, think what you want, and act like you are badasses and I am an idiot...it is OK! The TW was one of my favorite all time mechs too, it is hard to admit it is not the best mech...I get it.

The reality is...the TW is great for being able to do a little bit of everything. It is terrible at specializing beyond lasers...





I build clan mechs with a single purpose...I do not build "hybrids", I build them for a single range bracket. I think you are not playing enough other mechs to realize how strong they are comparatively.

I dunno about you Gyrok... when Timberwolfs were king, you were somehow adamantly defensive that they were still underpowered.

So, I take that honestly with a grain of salt.

When I got access to the Timberwolves when they became accessible with C-bills, it was the biggest EASY MODE mech ever.

That's why I stopped listening to the Timberwolf is UP type of argument.

Things have changed since then, and while the Timberwolf isn't the goto mech, it is the definitely up there with all the other options and when you keep building "theorymechs" that don't pass the smell test (just based on field experience that I have to deal with), then people like me reading what you're writing roll their eyes.

I'm not even saying everything I say is great or the most accurate, but I'm not the loudest to whine about "Clan inferiority" since Clans were released when "Clan inferiority" DID NOT EXIST for a long time (outside of the garbage tier mechs like the Mist Lynx - IS has more garbage to sell you back too), I don't have the patience to listen to this.

Balance is better, but still flawed. While I still subscribe to "there are different alternatives", I simply DO NOT BELIEVE Clans are screwed (the already screw Clan Mechs are the ones that still suffer from obvious limitations in the first place, and have been noted repeatedly - which totally exempts the Timberwolf from that list)... if these things were dramatically as good as you said they were (King Crab > Dire Wolf in many of you stranger posts), you'd see them in comp play right? Right?

Just no.

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 March 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

Lighter/smaller Clan weapons make more heatsinks feasible, and then the increased dissipation helps as well (both from the higher dissipation per heat sink and the fact that their are more of them). Most competitive laser vomit builds in the IS side for instance typically bring 18-19 DHS. Clan laser vomit can fit 24-26.

I don't think there is really an issue there. Like I have said before, IS vs Clan balance feels pretty good right now.

7 slot endo/ferro also helps with tonnage/slot restrictions.

Gas, I feel like things are pretty close...but the people crying for even more clan nerfs are trying to say clans are still OP, because equipment weight/crit slots, whatever.

I am trying to show that clans have to pay for that by requiring more DHS, and other odd offsets.

Clans are not OP. I feel like they are still a tad underpowered...but as close as things are...the IS certainly does not need any buffs, and Clans are certainly not in need of any nerfs...

[Oberost]

Gyrok, on 27 March 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

How can you not see how gimped a clan mech is by having to carry so many more DHS to get similar heat capacity?

It's not called gimped, it's called balanced...