133 replies to this topic

[cazidin]

Team Chevy86, on 23 March 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:

You realize that it will probably just be a tweak to current system???
I was stoked for the great 'rebalance' before the Steam release, promising info warfare, and ecm mechanic changes. All it turned out to be was a %50 decrease to ECM radius and a mix up of half baked quirks. That 'rebalance' created the IS ERLL imbalance, immortal Blackjacks, and epic ballistic quirks on mechs that had no ballistics. The only good that came from it was AC2 and SRM buffs.
Convoluted mechanics aside, I set my expectations low so I won't be disappointed. If they actually come up with something decent I'll be impressed.

Well, you may be right and it could very well be a minor tweak but PGI, or more accurately, Russ has specifically stated that it is a new system that they're building to replace Ghost Heat. While many despised Ghost Range that was a totally new system that required a great deal of work so PGI IS capable of it!

[Tripzter]

Alardus, on 23 March 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

Thanks for being for nerfing the awesome's original design even more.

original? Naaah.. different but not original. Also different doesnt mean good.

[nehebkau]

you know,
The more that I thought about it the more I came to the realization that Ghost-heat (Lets call it exponential heat) wasn't implemented properly. It should have occurred when you fired more than 2 of the same type of weapon at the same time or really close together.

That would have encouraged putting on no more than 2 of any type of weapon (be it erls, mls, ac's, srms, lrms, etc.etc.) Would have probably given us a lot more diversity.
(who am I kidding you would just see builds with 2xerppc, 2xLPL 2xERL and 2xMLs, 2xSML all firing at the same time in brawl range).

Edited by nehebkau, 23 March 2016 - 06:57 PM.

[Queen of England]

I know Russ said via Twitter that the replacement for Ghost Heat was a "power draw"-like system, and said during the Town Hall that one advantage was that everything was linked together. That kind of system actually promotes boating compared to the current Ghost Heat system. Under Ghost Heat, when you run 6x Large Lasers you have to split into two 27 damage groups; based on what Russ has said, under the new system everything needs to be split into 30 damage groups, so running single-weapon boats becomes more attractive.

[Alardus]

Tripzter, on 23 March 2016 - 06:19 PM, said:

original? Naaah.. different but not original. Also different doesnt mean good.

Progress/change/sameness doesn't mean good either.

Edited by Alardus, 23 March 2016 - 07:03 PM.

[sycocys]

End of the day, they don't want to implement more actual sim or BT flavor so the system is most likely going to end up like every new mechanic they release -

Brainstormed during drunken rampages because they keep getting toasted at a game they play 2-3 times a year and expect to be good at.
Will not take any advice from the players that actually play the game and would otherwise be able to tell them how their new system is going to be exploited.
Programmed/developed about halfway through then tossed on the server after being tested by their non-existent QA team.
Ignore player feedback for 3 years until they decide its time for a new system that doesn't solve any problems.

Might sound a bit salty, but its really just a bluntly honest review of their management methods up to this point.

[Gas Guzzler]

sycocys, on 23 March 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

End of the day, they don't want to implement more actual sim or BT flavor so the system is most likely going to end up like every new mechanic they release -

Brainstormed during drunken rampages because they keep getting toasted at a game they play 2-3 times a year and expect to be good at.
Will not take any advice from the players that actually play the game and would otherwise be able to tell them how their new system is going to be exploited.
Programmed/developed about halfway through then tossed on the server after being tested by their non-existent QA team.
Ignore player feedback for 3 years until they decide its time for a new system that doesn't solve any problems.

Might sound a bit salty, but its really just a bluntly honest review of their management methods up to this point.

The only viable alternative is people actually have to play smart.

[Davers]

Queen of England, on 23 March 2016 - 06:59 PM, said:

under the new system everything needs to be split into 30 damage groups

Was this actually explicitly stated as such, or is this some conjecture on your part? Just asking since this doesn't seem to hit many 'comp' builds that primarily rely on 3 LPLs...

[El Bandito]

nehebkau, on 23 March 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

(who am I kidding you would just see builds with 2xerppc, 2xLPL 2xERL and 2xMLs, 2xSML all firing at the same time in brawl range).

And that will still be more preferable to what we have now.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 March 2016 - 08:22 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 23 March 2016 - 08:21 PM, said:

And that will still be more preferable to what we have now.

"What we have now"

What we have now is a fun game, that rewards thoughtful play and not derping around oblivious to what the enemy team (and the friendly team) is doing.

[BigBenn]

Anything to reduce the numbers of laser hosts, and increase the number of mechs that use two and three kinds of weapons system. Anyone who constantly takes a few certain mechs packed with nothing but uber lasers.... is missing out.

[Gas Guzzler]

BigBenn, on 23 March 2016 - 09:05 PM, said:

Anything to reduce the numbers of laser hosts, and increase the number of mechs that use two and three kinds of weapons system. Anyone who constantly takes a few certain mechs packed with nothing but uber lasers.... is missing out.

LOL don't make me laugh.

Lasers and Gauss, PPCs and Gauss, AC20 and SRMs, Lasers and SRMs, there are meta builds EVERYWHERE that use more than just lasers. The fact that you (or the many other whiners on the forums) aren't aware of them isn't the game's fault.

[Wolfways]

Still don't see why pgi couldn't just drop the heat cap and improve heat sink dissipation.

[Biclor Moban]

I didn't see, is this "power dip" based on engine size + energy draw (number and size of fired energy consuming weapons? That would actually make sense, where ghost heat does not.

I am all for things that make sense!

Edited by Biclor Moban, 23 March 2016 - 10:50 PM.

[Black Ivan]

Or people will just switch to PPCs + Gauss and ACs with little lasers anymore

[SplashDown]

Black Ivan, on 23 March 2016 - 11:35 PM, said:

Or people will just switch to PPCs + Gauss and ACs with little lasers anymore

ya agree with you.
Also dunno why but my spider sense is telling me the new system is going to discriminate against clan mechs most of all...hope im wrong.

[Widowmaker1981]

Well, im going to mourn certain Clan mechs that will no longer have a means to be relevant (Executioner springs to mind - due to its absurd amount of locked gear the only way it can mount firepower vaguely OK for a 95 ton mech is LPL+ERML/SPL laser vomit). In fact its going to be a big nerf to Clans overall, due to locked gear (especially DHS)..

But whatever, i have hundreds of mechs of all types and will adapt.

[Luminis]

I'll be honest, I've been thinking about this from time to time as of late. And the more I do, the more I feel Ghost Heat could be an entirely acceptable system to somewhat reign in the abundance of high-alpha laser vomit 'Mechs, if only PGI closed the loop holes the system came with.

The reason we're seeing 50+ damage alphas is primarily due to two three weapon systems: Gausses, LPLs and MLs in different combinations. Ghost Heat preventing me from firing three C-LPLas at a given time is great, but I can just slap on up to six C-ERMLas on it, resulting in a potential 68 damage alpha without triggering Ghost Heat. The simple and, in my opinion, sensible solution is just to hard code the weapon combinations that trigger Ghost Heat - they already did that for Clan Medium and Small lasers.

It can't be that hard to set up the Ghost Heat System to allow, say, 2x C-LPLas + 2 C-ERMLas while triggering at 2x C-LPLas + 3 C-ERMlas. It's the same concept they've got with Mediums and Smalls, anyway. Could fire 1x C-LPLas + 4x C-ERMLas as well or 6x C-ERLMas, too. Allow Gauss Vomit to go a little beyond that as having to carry and use the Gauss has its inherent risks and you're good.

IS might need slightly different numbers here and there as their weapons deal less damage, but I think this gets the concept across.

Not only is it a relatively easy change, but it does allow for a relatively educated guess on what it's going to cause. People will still build to maximize their alpha potential, but I suppose there might be a shift towards more heat efficient builds as outright firepower isn't as easy to build for any more. What it won't do is stop players min-maxing to get every edge they can. To some of us, fiddling with load-outs to get the most out of whatever set of rules are brought upon us is part of the fun, so I don't think any system will ever change that - there's always going to be a meta, in that regard.

[TexAce]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 March 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

3 large lasers too much for you? Can't handle 27 damage? Find a new game. Jesus. What do you want people to take? 2 Machine guns, an AC2, an lrm 10, an SRM 4, and 2 medium lasers?

I'm pretty sure I could even make that work.

VTR-9B

There is seriously no IS mech under 80 tons that can pack such a loadout thoug (2E, 3B, 2M)

Edited by TexAce, 24 March 2016 - 02:58 AM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Technically, all we need to have ghost heat punishing using medium and large lasers all at once, maybe gauss+lasorz too, not sure about that.

Using that excuse to remake up the ghost heat mechanics so that it has a similar effects but is not so arbitrary would be a good thing.

They could do it like this:
30 - it's the power draw limit (because it can be divided by all almost all current ghost heat limits: 2, 3, 4, 6 and result in an even number. Exceeding this number would not only cause exponential heat, but also damage to your mech (random section? random weapon section?) equal to how much power draw points did you exceeded.
Gauss power draw would be 15. If allowing gauss+lazors is so dangerous (have some doubts about that) gauss power draw would apply from the beginning of the charge-up.
AC20 would be 16-20
Other ACs should have smaller numbers, eg. equal to their damage, AC dps would still be a thing)
PPC would be 15
LL/LPL - 10, Clan versions - 15
MLs - 5
SRM - 4
and so on, and so on. Top limit for weapons types be the same, you couldn't shoot different weapons at the same time, but use 1-2 punch. 1-2 punch is not is not a bad thing already, it's actually quite on par with AC dps imho. It would also make mixed loadouts more viable, closing the effectiveness gap between them and the meta.

as for LPLs: well, either they should be nerfed a bit, or some mechs should get dequirked towards LPLs (like standard laser quirks instead of general laser quirks). LPLs are just damn good.

This is just an example of how this could be done. I just hope they won't come out with another easily exploitable system.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 24 March 2016 - 04:08 AM.