232 replies to this topic

[Sereglach]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 March 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

The townhalls lately have covered important topics from development in the coming months, the roadmap for next month, and then answering questions for people present at the town hall. I think it has worked out pretty well.

Not really. They've given very vague references to things coming . . . again, my first post pretty well sums it up. There's been extremely little in the way of any specifics or real discussion. It's just "well, we'd like to do this", or "this is something that we're working on", or "this is being thought about". I mean, really, what are the specifics on the heat system overhaul? Nothing. What do we know about CW Phase 3? We're told to just go watch the Steam Launch Party Video.

Sure, basic little concepts are mentioned along with a bunch of "I'll ask about that" and "no specifics" comments. That's not actual discussion substance. We've been hearing the same things over and over again since the steam launch. The only remote specifics are previews of the upcoming month's "Roadmap" which, again, is just a preview of the patch notes . . . and we're even told in both the Town Halls and the Roadmap that specifics will be saved for patch notes.

How is that a true and in-depth discussion of what is coming? We haven't had long-range-timeline information, with good details, for over a year now. The amazing conversations we were getting with them immediately following PGI's separation from IGP have been sadly dying off.

Gas Guzzler, on 29 March 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Your opinion on the meta shows you need a better understanding of the game. You should check out the MRBC shoutcasts to see what high level play is really like (hint: its not all non-stop high alpha).

Tournament and MRBC rule stipulations (which even put drop limits in place that are much lighter than typical in-game play . . . especially drops 1 and 2 for the MRBC matches) don't really count as what I'd call more typical Quick-Play meta . . . the most common form of play currently in MWO. If you look all over these forums, you'll quickly see a long-standing history now of High Alpha meta (especially laser vomit). Which that High Alpha Meta is still very much the meta of the game; and if it wasn't then there wouldn't be any talks of a complete -yet mysterious (since Russ hasn't really revealed jack yet, other than to create hype for it)- heat system revamp to drastically cut down (if not eliminate) alpha striking in the game.

So how is it not the meta, or not a major problem for MWO? Where is the true evidence for this? Where can I find that evidence on these forums?

[Bilbo]

Jman5, on 29 March 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

Banwave when?

Were I a betting man, I'd put even money on never.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jman5, on 29 March 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

Banwave when?

People still care about that? I stopped caring when they said they were thinking about NOT doing a public ban wave.

[shopsmart]

Hoping for another joke mech like urbie... pirahna. 12 MGs of uselessness... untill there is no armor...

[Gas Guzzler]

Sereglach, on 29 March 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

Tournament and MRBC rule stipulations (which even put drop limits in place that are much lighter than typical in-game play . . . especially drops 1 and 2 for the MRBC matches) don't really count as what I'd call more typical Quick-Play meta . . . the most common form of play currently in MWO. If you look all over these forums, you'll quickly see a long-standing history now of High Alpha meta (especially laser vomit). Which that High Alpha Meta is still very much the meta of the game; and if it wasn't then there wouldn't be any talks of a complete -yet mysterious (since Russ hasn't really revealed jack yet, other than to create hype for it)- heat system revamp to drastically cut down (if not eliminate) alpha striking in the game.

So how is it not the meta, or not a major problem for MWO? Where is the true evidence for this? Where can I find that evidence on these forums?

Where is there evidence that it IS a major problem for MWO? All I see are a bunch of guys who want to be able to have 10 seconds to react complaining about being roflstomped too quickly. What is laughable is if you take the alpha strike away, then all you will have is high DPS ballistic boats that will shred you faster than lasers would. The major problem with MWO is the portion of the community that wants to be spoon fed the game, and wants to have the feeling of being an elite MechWarrior, mindlessly trudging around out in the open, firing one laser at a time until someone dies, living out their favorite BattleTech books with missed shot after missed shot. Sorry, I would prefer to have a more thought intensive game where scouting is important, and you have to actually be careful and think through your movement.

And Quick-Play meta? Seriously? You can take any build that you want into Quick-Play, who cares.

Since you asked, one of the premier meta assault mechs right now has an alpha strike of 25 damage. Staggering isn't it.

Laser vomit is meta, but so are SRMs, especially when combined with an AC20 on an Atlas.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 29 March 2016 - 01:35 PM.

[Odanan]

Clan Wave 4 should be announced! Oh yes!

[Gas Guzzler]

Odanan, on 29 March 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

Clan Wave 4 should be announced! Oh yes!

Go Kingfisher-F! Go the distance!

[Odanan]

shopsmart, on 29 March 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

Hoping for another joke mech like urbie... pirahna. 12 MGs of uselessness... untill there is no armor...

12 MGs in a mech that fast are no joke...

(twice as powerful as the legendary 6 MGs Spider!)

[Sereglach]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 March 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

Where is there evidence that it IS a major problem for MWO? All I see are a bunch of guys who want to be able to have 10 seconds to react complaining about being roflstomped too quickly. What is laughable is if you take the alpha strike away, then all you will have is high DPS ballistic boats that will shred you faster than lasers would. The major problem with MWO is the portion of the community that wants to be spoon fed the game, and wants to have the feeling of being an elite MechWarrior, mindlessly trudging around out in the open, firing one laser at a time until someone dies, living out their favorite BattleTech books with missed shot after missed shot. Sorry, I would prefer to have a more thought intensive game where scouting is important, and you have to actually be careful and think through your movement.

I'd say the massive forum threads all over the place of attempting to discuss the high-alpha problem and theorizing/discussing ways PGI could plan on addressing it stand as evidence enough. Again, if it wasn't a problem, then why on Earth would Russ's primary reason for redoing the heat system be to eliminate Alpha Strikes?

Gas Guzzler, on 29 March 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

And Quick-Play meta? Seriously? You can take any build that you want into Quick-Play, who cares.

Quick-Play also encompasses groups in quick play, too, which is where lots of groups do play. That is also nowhere near as lackadaisical as solo Quick Play. However, it also applies to CW, as well, if you want to nit-pick game modes.

However, much of this happens in Quick Play -even in groups- considering that they believe CW is absolute junk and hope that the Phase 3 we've been waiting on, for over 6 months now (from original intended release of October 2015) . . . not including original hype time (which would make it since Phase 2 was released over a year ago now), will save the game mode and provide people with something to actually fight for. Many people are wearing quite thin, and see Quick-Play modes as the only real end-game . . . the quickest way to earn c-bills for more mechs, modules, etc.

Gas Guzzler, on 29 March 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

Since you asked, one of the premier meta assault mechs right now has an alpha strike of 25 damage. Staggering isn't it.

Build? Probably a 5 AC/5 or Ultra/5 Mauler? Still High Alpha that's pinpoint and has quite a fast cyclic rate of pin-point damage. I remember when the mere 30-40 point Wack-a-Pult/Boom-Cat was the most dangerous thing in existence. It's funny how things change over time. However, one thing hasn't changed . . . putting as much pin-point damage as you can on target in as small of a time as possible. That's high-pinpoint-Alpha play. That build still falls in that pit, because it's doing 25 points nearly every second with quirks and modules . . . and it's 100% pinpoint.

Gas Guzzler, on 29 March 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

Laser vomit is meta, but so are SRMs, especially when combined with an AC20 on an Atlas.

Well, for one, funnily enough if SRM's get much tighter grouping (especially 2s & 4s) they'll probably become as pinpoint as said Autocannons. Don't get me wrong, SRM's need something to compete, but buffing their ammo supply (by giving it the same 50% boost of all the other ammo types in the game) would have been another nice route to go in balancing the weapon system. People wouldn't be quite so upset about missed missiles, then. However, PGI and MWO meta has pushed things to be as high-damage and high-pinpoint as possible. That makes the SRM grouping buff exacerbate the issue, not helps fix things, overall.

Also, of course SRM's can be meta . . . the 48-72 point alphas of Jenner IIC's fall right in line with the current high-alpha Meta mentality (and at the proximity they can get and the speed they can move they can make that whole alpha pretty pin-point on single body parts). SRM's create great high-alpha opportunities without quite the heat-costs of laser-vomit. That's one reason the Atlas brawler is still a solid meta-staple in the high-alpha world of the current MWO.

[PraetorGix]

Sereglach, on 29 March 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

4. Is Russ going to conduct himself in a more professional manner, this time, or is he going to be getting himself intoxicated again? Seriously . . . last town hall was appalling for any sort of professional company representative to conduct themselves.

Shut up will you? Go with your church lady sensitivities somewhere else please.

[Gas Guzzler]

Sereglach, on 29 March 2016 - 01:57 PM, said:

I'd say the massive forum threads all over the place of attempting to discuss the high-alpha problem and theorizing/discussing ways PGI could plan on addressing it stand as evidence enough. Again, if it wasn't a problem, then why on Earth would Russ's primary reason for redoing the heat system be to eliminate Alpha Strikes?


Quick-Play also encompasses groups in quick play, too, which is where lots of groups do play. That is also nowhere near as lackadaisical as solo Quick Play. However, it also applies to CW, as well, if you want to nit-pick game modes.

However, much of this happens in Quick Play -even in groups- considering that they believe CW is absolute junk and hope that the Phase 3 we've been waiting on, for over 6 months now (from original intended release of October 2015) . . . not including original hype time (which would make it since Phase 2 was released over a year ago now), will save the game mode and provide people with something to actually fight for. Many people are wearing quite thin, and see Quick-Play modes as the only real end-game . . . the quickest way to earn c-bills for more mechs, modules, etc.


Build? Probably a 5 AC/5 or Ultra/5 Mauler? Still High Alpha that's pinpoint and has quite a fast cyclic rate of pin-point damage. I remember when the mere 30-40 point Wack-a-Pult/Boom-Cat was the most dangerous thing in existence. It's funny how things change over time. However, one thing hasn't changed . . . putting as much pin-point damage as you can on target in as small of a time as possible. That's high-pinpoint-Alpha play. That build still falls in that pit, because it's doing 25 points nearly every second with quirks and modules . . . and it's 100% pinpoint.


Well, for one, funnily enough if SRM's get much tighter grouping (especially 2s & 4s) they'll probably become as pinpoint as said Autocannons. Don't get me wrong, SRM's need something to compete, but buffing their ammo supply (by giving it the same 50% boost of all the other ammo types in the game) would have been another nice route to go in balancing the weapon system. People wouldn't be quite so upset about missed missiles, then. However, PGI and MWO meta has pushed things to be as high-damage and high-pinpoint as possible. That makes the SRM grouping buff exacerbate the issue, not helps fix things, overall.

Also, of course SRM's can be meta . . . the 48-72 point alphas of Jenner IIC's fall right in line with the current high-alpha Meta mentality (and at the proximity they can get and the speed they can move they can make that whole alpha pretty pin-point on single body parts). SRM's create great high-alpha opportunities without quite the heat-costs of laser-vomit. That's one reason the Atlas brawler is still a solid meta-staple in the high-alpha world of the current MWO.

For starters, the whine threads about alpha strikes are started by people who have the opinion that I described earlier. Its also a well known fact that most of the active forum participants are not competitive players, or better yet, most competitive, high level players are not active on the forums.

Russ wants to destroy alpha strikes because of the whiners obviously.

How is 25 damage a high alpha? That is 5 medium lasers worth of damage. Light mechs have larger alpha strikes than that.

Essentially, destroying alpha strikes dumbs down the game. Do we want a thinking mans shooter or a bunch of derps running around staring at each other chain firing weapons? This is where opinions come in, I'd rather have more interesting gameplay than derp.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 29 March 2016 - 02:04 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

Not sure this thread was to degenerate into people arguing over meta and alpha's yet again, but I'll put this here.

Jump jets were Nerfed into the ground because Poptarts delivering alpha's of 35 were considered game breaking and making the game dull and unexciting.

So is it really that surprising that P.G.I are now trying to curb, with power draw, corner poking with a bigger alpha, which is just as dull and unexciting as poptart online, but with less hand to eye co ordination required.

[Sereglach]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 March 2016 - 02:04 PM, said:

For starters, the whine threads about alpha strikes are started by people who have the opinion that I described earlier. Its also a well known fact that most of the active forum participants are not competitive players, or better yet, most competitive, high level players are not active on the forums.

Russ wants to destroy alpha strikes because of the whiners obviously.

How is 25 damage a high alpha? That is 5 medium lasers worth of damage. Light mechs have larger alpha strikes than that.

Essentially, destroying alpha strikes dumbs down the game. Do we want a thinking mans shooter or a bunch of derps running around staring at each other chain firing weapons? This is where opinions come in, I'd rather have more interesting gameplay than derp.

Well, your response shows very clearly where you stand, where your opinions come into play, and the fact that you didn't really read everything I had to say about how it's not just big alphas, but also pinpoint alphas. A 25 damage pinpoint alpha (that can reach 600m at max damage, no less) just over every second is extremely potent in the current meta of the game. 5 medium lasers have a burn time, 5 AC/5s do not. Regardless, large pin-point alpha is still pinpoint. The other side of the high-alpha meta isn't just alpha size, but how pinpoint it is. Thusly the remarks I make about SRM's and the meta.

Regardless, you've made your points and opinion quite clear . . . you like the High Alpha Meta and your true gripe is that you don't want it to go away, so you're upset about what Russ theoretically wants to do to the heat scale and destroy the Alpha meta.

Also, I see plenty of other competitive players on these forums, and they do participate in the Alpha-Thread discussions. However, again, opinions are opinions; and while you want to rag on other people for their "opinions", your "opinions" are just irrefutable fact in your eyes. That said, the discussion is obviously pointless to continue, so I'm sure you'll enjoy your "last word" with more derogatory remarks over how anyone who doesn't want a high-alpha game is just a "derp player".

[Blunt_Object]

Just a quick one that can be brought up or fully implemented.
recently with the server outages you had a scroll bar on the bottom of the main log in screen that showed the server outage in everyones local timezones.
Can this scroll bar and local time zone clocks be added permenantly for anytime there is an event/outage/patch so that all playes can clearly and easily tell in their own timezone when an event starts.

I loved the scroll bar and thought it was a brilliant edition but haven't seen it back since

Edited by BluntObject, 29 March 2016 - 02:34 PM.

[LTG Renner]

Matt Newman, on 29 March 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

on Kodiak vs Phoenix Hawk Promotional materials.
You can look forward to some Kodiak sneaky peaky stuff coming soon.

Don't make me wet myself with excitement

[Gas Guzzler]

Actually, contrary to popular belief, I like variety. The problem is, no one seems to recognize that simply limiting alpha size will only destroy variety, and limit the game to any playstyle that doesn't involve a lot of damage. That leaves us with ballistic DPS builds and PPFLD builds.

I am tired of seeing misinformed opinions about how the only way one can hope to play is by mass laser vomit damage. That isn't an opinion, it is just false.

I'm curious to see which high level players support power draw. Most of the ones I know are skeptical of its lopsided effect on the meta game.

Any of the stuff I just posted is not my opinion, just my theory on how power draw will effect the game. Is your opinion that mechs that were designed to boat lasers, even in lore, should be removed from viability? Because that is what is going to happen when you remove their ability to lay down damage quickly.

[Deathlike]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 March 2016 - 02:04 PM, said:

For starters, the whine threads about alpha strikes are started by people who have the opinion that I described earlier.  Its also a well known fact that most of the active forum participants are not competitive players, or better yet, most competitive, high level players are not active on the forums.

Is that why I haven't gotten to drop in an MRBC match?

Gas Guzzler, on 29 March 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

Actually, contrary to popular belief, I like variety.  The problem is, no one seems to recognize that simply limiting alpha size will only destroy variety, and limit the game to any playstyle that doesn't involve a lot of damage.  That leaves us with ballistic DPS builds and PPFLD builds.

I am tired of seeing misinformed opinions about how the only way one can hope to play is by mass laser vomit damage.  That isn't an opinion, it is just false.

I'm curious to see which high level players support power draw.  Most of the ones I know are skeptical of its lopsided effect on the meta game.

Any of the stuff I just posted is not my opinion, just my theory on how power draw will effect the game.  Is your opinion that mechs that were designed to boat lasers, even in lore, should be removed from viability?  Because that is what is going to happen when you remove their ability to lay down damage quickly.

When poptarts were the meta, the biggest problem "at the time" was that there wasn't really anything to counter it... mostly in due part that the counters was simply... bring your own poptart (brawling wasn't good enough then, and lasers weren't as good).

Right now, poptarting is a niche (most due in part Hoverjets™ and if ever even just PPCs in general would have some sort of velocity buff that isn't tied to strictly quirks (as in, a global PPC/ERPPC change), then we would have some semblance of balance. Then again...

I liked the power draw idea from Homeless Bill. I won't say it wouldn't be flawed (because it can). On the other hand, I had to question myself... if PGI is actually going to do this... then is Paul going to screw this up? I won't leave such a change to someone who is questionable "at best" at this particular job.

It's the kind of thing where you or I will not like the answer to the question and like I've said before on any major change... I'll believe it when I see it.

Edited by Deathlike, 29 March 2016 - 02:46 PM.

[Big Jeka]

There will be new mechs without packs and pre-order (how long ago promised Flea)?

When IS assauty come to fight Kodiak:

Annihilator
Devastator
Pillager?

[NocturnalBeast]

Cathy, on 29 March 2016 - 02:22 PM, said:

Not sure this thread was to degenerate into people arguing over meta and alpha's yet again, but I'll put this here.

Jump jets were Nerfed into the ground because Poptarts delivering alpha's of 35 were considered game breaking and making the game dull and unexciting.

So is it really that surprising that P.G.I are now trying to curb, with power draw, corner poking with a bigger alpha, which is just as dull and unexciting as poptart online, but with less hand to eye co ordination required.

Actually, it was nerfed because there were no tiers in the game yet and top-tier groups were exploiting the poptart meta and making people cry.

Big Jeka, on 29 March 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

There will be new mechs without packs and pre-order (how long ago promised Flea)?

When IS assauty come to fight Kodiak:

Annihilator
Devastator
Pillager?

Technically the Annihilator was only used by the Wolf's Dragoons and therefore more of a Clan mech than an IS mech.

[Cy Mitchell]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 March 2016 - 02:04 PM, said:

Essentially, destroying alpha strikes dumbs down the game. Do we want a thinking mans shooter or a bunch of derps running around staring at each other chain firing weapons? This is where opinions come in, I'd rather have more interesting gameplay than derp.

I find nothing interesting or mentally taxing about stepping into the open and pushing one button then twisting or ducking into cover a second so I can push that same button again. Dumbed down? That is about as dumbed down as a game can get. The same people that love that play style are the ones that want respawn so the game truly can become a clone of every other FPS shooter out there. Push button, push button, die, respawn, run back in, push button, push button, rinse and repeat.

I have no issue with alphas as long as there are negative consequences for abusing them. Then you have to "think" about the ramifications of playing a one button game. I want to see a system that makes you use your head for something other than being a headset holder. I am hopeful that whatever PGI comes up with is a big improvement over what is in place now.

I will be listening Friday night for some clues.

Edited by Rampage, 29 March 2016 - 03:42 PM.