108 replies to this topic

[cazidin]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 March 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

So is everything else, so relying on that is likely to equal a net gain of zero.

Quirks are a bandaid, and crack, and we need an intervention because they went from being that "little something extra" to fix what otherwise couldn't, or to add flavor, to the meat of the meal. On the viability Pyramid, quirks should be the least important factor. As it sit's now, they are viewed almost as the most important, and it's pretty dang absurd.

Russ and Paul are doling out quirks like smack, and people are tripping over themselves to lap it up.

Then what can be done for the poor Vindicator if not a rescale, additional hard points or quirks? Is it forever a medicore mech?

FupDup, on 31 March 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

The sad thing is that, if PGI were to rescale the Vindi, they would either:

A. Make it larger because their magical volume spreadsheet told them so, and they can't ever dispute or oppose the almighty supremacy of the spreadsheet overlord.

B. Make it a bit smaller, but reduce the quirks because they think that the reduced size would be enough to make it suddenly meta.

You know it's true.

...Sadly, you're right.

[Bishop Steiner]

clownwarlord, on 31 March 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

Since some one said they use a vindy for poptarting.

There are better mechs at pop tarting than the vindy and thats the problem with it. It is so bland and bad that it has nothing to it.

If you want a mech with no personality, no sexiness, no diversity and just a plain Janie of a mech. Then pick a vindy because anything it can do something does it 100 times better at more or less tonnage.


Haven't heard a word about it. Although tomorrow April 1st town hall ... that is if it isn't April fools.

Every single mech was evaluated and all but a handful resized. The resizing is actually already done, according to Russ (some mechs, like the Stalker and Archer and Crab will actualyl be getting BIGGER), and some like the Catapult had to be resized so extensively that it was literally rebuilt from the ground up. But now it's re-rigging, reanimating (hopefully they won't skimp as bad this time on animations) and at least for some like the Catapult, re-texture, reskin, etc.

Supposed to be released either May or June patch.

Mcgral18, on 31 March 2016 - 06:27 PM, said:

Quirks are what made it good.

and this is a phrase that quite simply should never be uttered.

[Bishop Steiner]

cazidin, on 31 March 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

Then what can be done for the poor Vindicator if not a rescale, additional hard points or quirks? Is it forever a medicore mech?

The only thing that can be done is Quirks or fixing hardpoints, but Russ has been pretty adamant that hardpoint counts won't change, even on mechs that have long since had their counts obsoleted by power creep.

Simply put, 6 is the bare minimum any mech should get and in most cases, 8-10 is not out of line since we have some with around 14, native hardpoints, etc, and some coming that will have MORE.

That said, initially expect the VND to get WORSE because they will almost certainly get their Quirks nerfed. Really the only hope woul dbe for common sense to break out (and as such, we are dommed) and they blow up quirks as we know them, entirely.

But Russ himself, is far too addicted to the product he's doling out to the Quirk Junkie Masses......and the illusion of a quick fix it brings, without seeing that' it's just pushed power creep up to a power sprint.

[LT. HARDCASE]

FupDup, on 31 March 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

The sad thing is that, if PGI were to rescale the Vindi, they would either:

A. Make it larger because their magical volume spreadsheet told them so, and they can't ever dispute or oppose the almighty supremacy of the spreadsheet overlord.

B. Make it a bit smaller, but reduce the quirks because they think that the reduced size would be enough to make it suddenly meta.

You know it's true.

Now I'm scared..Will they scale the Phoenix up to the Vindicators, out of a sense of "fairness"?

[Bishop Steiner]

LT. HARDCASE, on 31 March 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

Now I'm scared..Will they scale the Phoenix up to the Vindicators, out of a sense of "fairness"?

or will we just keep running rumors, fearmongering and negative propaganda that people will take as gospel and run with?

Love how bitter people are over the volumetric scaling, when it actually is the most accurate overall measurement they can use.

The real issue is basically, post rescale, they should unquirk EVERYTHING, for a solid month and collect data from there, and then quirk only what is actualyl shown needed. Instead of handing out quirks like Oprah giving away cars.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 31 March 2016 - 06:58 PM.

[cazidin]

LT. HARDCASE, on 31 March 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

Now I'm scared..Will they scale the Phoenix up to the Vindicators, out of a sense of "fairness"?

To my knowledge, one of the many problems with the Vindicator is its size. It'll likely be shrunk down if only slightly. The Phoenix Hawk will likely be small. Not tiny. Small.

[Clownwarlord]

The biggest problem I see with the Vindicator is not the size (everything is getting re-sized if it needs it so kinda mute point), and the biggest problem is it has nothing for it. It has nothing that sets it out other than it is humanoid for its tonnage. But with PH coming out with more hard points ... well there goes that. So what is the point to the Vindicator? Poptart? Really there are other mechs that make better poptarts at bigger or smaller tonnages (Panther, humanoid, ERPPC/PPC quirks, and JJs for example).

So what sets this mech apart? What is good about this mech? Will it ever be good?

My answers currently; nothing, nothing, and no.

[Adamski]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 March 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

or will we just keep running rumors, fearmongering and negative propaganda that people will take as gospel and run with?

Love how bitter people are over the volumetric scaling, when it actually is the most accurate overall measurement they can use.

The real issue is basically, post rescale, they should unquirk EVERYTHING, for a solid month and collect data from there, and then quirk only what is actualyl shown needed. Instead of handing out quirks like Oprah giving away cars.

I agree for the most part, but you don't need to delete all the quirks to collect balance data.

PGI can look at Group & Quick Play, then look at any individual mechs stats by:
Average damage taken in a match
Average damage taken before death
Average damage dealt in a match
Average # component destroyed

Exclude any matches from Tier 3/4 players and below.

If something is a certain number of deviations from the average across mechs of the same tonnage, then adjust its quirks to bring it in line. If something with no quirks like the EBJ or TBR is the one that is number of deviations from the average, then bring all the other mechs closer to that performance average.

Keep in mind, that a mech that has a higher than average damage dealt / components destroyed, but lower than average damage taken before death, then that is still balanced.

Edited by Adamski, 31 March 2016 - 07:44 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

Mcgral18, on 31 March 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

They should have given it the old BJ quirks.
In Armour, for the 1X.
I mean, the bloody BJ-1X had better quirks than the terribad Vindi 1X

Two possible explanations:

• PGI's balancing is done in large part by a mysterious group of "comp players" who whisper into Paul's ear about the Clan vs Inner Sphere balance. Bad mechs are ignored, and they focus on balancing Thunderbolt vs EBJ, Grasshopper vs Timber, Firestarter vs ACH, etc. As if that is all that matters.
  
• PGI determines mech quirks by a series of D20 dice rolls.

[Adamski]

Look at the current SIB quirks:
LASER DURATION: -25.00 %
ENERGY RANGE: 10.00 %
ENERGY COOLDOWN: 5.00 %
ENERGY HEAT GENERATION: -5.00 %
MISSILE COOLDOWN: 10.00 %
MISSILE VELOCITY: 10.00 %
ACCELERATION RATE: 50.00 %
DECELERATION RATE: 50.00 %
TURN RATE: 25.00 %
TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 10.00 %
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LA): 14.00
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RA): 14.00
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LL): 15.00
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RL): 15.00

That is a LOT of quirk's, but so many are in the wrong things. 25% in Laser duration? It is really nice to hit the panel you aim for with all your damage, but FFS, it overheats so goddamn quick, and has no survivability in a brawl. So the best use I've found for it is to equip ERLL, and snipe from long distances so that the laser duration lets me keep ducking back into cover with my quirked mobility. But even there, its arm mounts are so low and far apart, that anyone that watches for me can easily drill my CT with counterfire.

[InRev]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 March 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

The real issue is basically, post rescale, they should unquirk EVERYTHING, for a solid month and collect data from there, and then quirk only what is actualyl shown needed. Instead of handing out quirks like Oprah giving away cars.

If Clan mechs didn't exist, I would be more on board with that; but Clan mechs do exist, and no amount of re-scaling will make un-quirked IS mechs comparable with Timbies, Cheaters, Ebon Jags, Helbies and Doomcrows.

That month of un-quirked data collection would be hellish for IS, especially those mechs that don't even get re-scaled much.

[Mcgral18]

Adamski, on 31 March 2016 - 08:00 PM, said:

Look at the current SIB quirks:
LASER DURATION: -25.00 %
ENERGY RANGE: 10.00 %
ENERGY COOLDOWN: 5.00 %
ENERGY HEAT GENERATION: -5.00 %
MISSILE COOLDOWN: 10.00 %
MISSILE VELOCITY: 10.00 %
ACCELERATION RATE: 50.00 %
DECELERATION RATE: 50.00 %
TURN RATE: 25.00 %
TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 10.00 %
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LA): 14.00
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RA): 14.00
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LL): 15.00
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RL): 15.00

That is a LOT of quirk's, but so many are in the wrong things. 25% in Laser duration? It is really nice to hit the panel you aim for with all your damage, but FFS, it overheats so goddamn quick, and has no survivability in a brawl. So the best use I've found for it is to equip ERLL, and snipe from long distances so that the laser duration lets me keep ducking back into cover with my quirked mobility. But even there, its arm mounts are so low and far apart, that anyone that watches for me can easily drill my CT with counterfire.

It also lacks any torso structure...you know, the things people tend to shoot at (legs being an occasional thing).
That, and the 25% duration quirk is almost wasted, without the ability to mount a meaningful alpha (which even the SadCat feels for). 27? I guess 28 with an MPL.

[Deathlike]

Tristan Winter, on 31 March 2016 - 07:46 PM, said:

Two possible explanations:

• PGI's balancing is done in large part by a mysterious group of "comp players" who whisper into Paul's ear about the Clan vs Inner Sphere balance. Bad mechs are ignored, and they focus on balancing Thunderbolt vs EBJ, Grasshopper vs Timber, Firestarter vs ACH, etc. As if that is all that matters.
  
• PGI determines mech quirks by a series of D20 dice rolls.

The former is a lie.

Somewhere in Mordor... I mean Terra Therma said:

Edited by Deathlike, 31 March 2016 - 08:10 PM.

[-Vompo-]

Rhaythe, on 31 March 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

Makes a great poptart. That's... yeah, about all I use it for.

Sadly the games are rarely long enough for a vindipoptart has enough time to do anything useful.

[Juodas Varnas]

I feel that the Vindicators could use some more hardpoint inflation, first and foremost. Followed by an engine limit increase to 250 (St. Ives' Blues already has this, so it's only for -1R and -1X)

Here's how i imagine the hardpoint distribution should be for the Vindicators:
VND-1R - 2M LT; 2E LA; 1E HD; 2E RA; 5E + 2M + 1AMS Basic variant (one extra missile hardpoint)

VND-1AA - 1M LT; 2E LA; 1E HD; 2E RA; 5E + 1M + 2AMS Sacrifices M hardpoint for AMS and mobility

VND-1X - 2M LT; 4B LA; 1E HD; 2E RA; 3E + 2M + 4B + 1AMS Sacrifices 2E hardpoints for 4B

VND-1SIB - 3M LT; 2E LA; 1E HD; 1E RA; 4E + 3M + 1AMS Sacrifices 1E hardpoint for 1M (still more than it has currently)

Other than that, i'd also up the JJ limit of -1R and -1X 5 jumpjets (to the level of St. Ives' Blues), 1AA still given 6.

At least that's what i'd do to it. You could probably give all of the variants some more E hardpoints, but that would require modeling and i doubt PGI would be able to do that

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 31 March 2016 - 11:06 PM.

[Adamski]

Juodas Varnas, on 31 March 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

I feel that the Vindicators could use some more hardpoint inflation, first and foremost. Followed by an engine limit increase to 250 (St. Ives' Blues already has this, so it's only for -1R and -1X)

Here's how i imagine the hardpoint distribution should be for the Vindicators:
VND-1R - 2M LT; 2E LA; 1E HD; 2E RA; 5E + 2M + 1AMS Basic variant (one extra missile hardpoint)

VND-1AA - 1M LT; 2E LA; 1E HD; 2E RA; 5E + 1M + 2AMS Sacrifices M hardpoint for AMS and mobility

VND-1X - 2M LT; 4B LA; 1E HD; 2E RA; 3E + 2M + 4B + 1AMS Sacrifices 2E hardpoints for 4B

VND-1SIB - 3M LT; 2E LA; 1E HD; 1E RA; 4E + 3M + 1AMS Sacrifices 1E hardpoint for 1M (still more than it has currently)

Other than that, i'd also up the JJ limit of -1R and -1X 5 jumpjets (to the level of St. Ives' Blues), 1AA still given 6.

At least that's what i'd do to it. You could probably give all of the variants some more E hardpoints, but that would require modeling and i doubt PGI would be able to do that

I like those ideas. Would probably still require a reroll on current quirks, but giving the SIB another energy and missile would really help.

[Nullmancer]

i like what your suggesting hardpoint-wise, I can imagine it doing wonders for the chassis.

Previously I've always felt that the 1R and 1AA were ok as they were but the 1X should have had either a second missile hardpoint instead of the third ballistic, or a second energy in the right arm, but yeah, I really liking the idea of giving all variants extra hardpoints.

It'd be real nice though if one of the vindicator's could have three energy hardpoints in the right arm, but it might turn out wonky like the Panther arm.


I'd also like to see some adjustments to the model as well, push the arms closer to the torso's, trim down the knob at the elbow of the right arm, shorten the stupid looking rock 'em sock 'em left arm, and scale the chassis closer to Blackjack size.


anyways, yeah, I like your ideas juodas

Edited by Nullmancer, 01 April 2016 - 01:00 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Adamski, on 01 April 2016 - 12:50 AM, said:

I like those ideas. Would probably still require a reroll on current quirks, but giving the SIB another energy and missile would really help.

If by reroll you mean an increase, then yes.

[C E Dwyer]

clownwarlord, on 31 March 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Can we get some love for probably the crappiest mech in the game? Anything this mech can do it has a light or a bigger medium that can do it better. With the in coming PH it will ultimately replace any small usefulness that the Vindicator had.

So please PGI get out your quirk gun and quirk this mech more.

I don't agree that it was dead on arrival, I mastered them all, but it most certainly is very dead now, its to slow it can't shield its ST so its xl is vulnerable etc etc, and I think when the Phoenix arrives it will finally become extinct.

So yeah get the quirks out

[Bluttrunken]

Terrible hardpoint placement and a low amount at that, low engine cap and mediocre quirks all combined on a 45 ton chassis.

The Vindicator is probably the best mech in the game.