1049 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 April 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

I want to agree with this. But as I noted with Quicksilver, there does need be some tradeoff when you count the advantages of the C-XL (biggest game breaker in the clan arsenal), and sappable/optimizable hardpoints. Not counting half crit and more effective FF, Half Crit Endo and 2 slot DHS.

Those are all undeniable advantages over the IS, where the IS get customizable cores, and hardpoint inflation. Quirks are too malleable and poorly done atm to realyl consider them a set "balancer" for either, though yes atm, Quirks are most prominent with IS, which was the intention.

That said, current balance is actually the closest it's ever been post clans. What is needed now (IMO) is tweaks to moderate the very moderate imbalances between the top contenders, not wholesale surgery.

And indeed it may seem that what you propose won't cause the world to implode, but every exception one makes, the foundation gets that much weaker, and yes, eventually the whole house of cards does tumble.

THESE are the rules we play by. With basic balance works and a complete rethink of quirks, there is no real reason it can't/won't work.

Aside from the mountain of bandaids the whole game seems to be comprised of by now. Which I think we all agree need to be ripped off, before they become even more precarious.


welcome to the suck that is mech reality. If you look at a huge chunk of IS mechs, realistically, they are all shades of the same flavor too. People just ID what laservomits best and ignore the other variants, too.

I do with they'd gone with a sized hardpoint system (Battlemechs) and some form of actual "omni" pod set up for Omnis.... but that wouldn't work with the eternally stupid and annoying "grind 3 variants" approach.

Clan XL is a different beast entirely. iv advocated for a total simplification of the engine system so that both sides have identical standard and XL engines (IS basically get clan XL). Give standard engines a SIGNIFICANT durability boost to keep them competitive with the XLs, and leave them at that. This of course breaks some stock loadouts, which further points to my argument that keeping so close to stock all the time as an unbreakable rule is pointless. Use stock as a guide to develop a mech, understand what the mech often did, and what it could potentially do when customized, and build the new "stock" loadout that way.

Having Clan XL be punished by omnimech rules is not a good way to balance clan vs is XL, because it dooms IS omnimechs like the sunder, more than half the clan omnimechs, and solves no problems.

[Koniving]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 April 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

Packs are dead, decapitated, staked, with garlic shoved in the mouth, chief.

And good riddance.

I dunno.
I like the idea of an 80 dollar pack of 4 chassis with 3 variants each. (4 chassis, 12 mechs)
over an 80 dollar "ultimate collector" setup of 1 chassis, 5 variants, a collector, and 2 heroes. (1 chassis, 8 mechs).
It's irking me like the latest big money grab. Less work, more profit, less bang for the buck.

[Gas Guzzler]

Koniving, on 08 April 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

I dunno.
I like the idea of an 80 dollar pack of 4 chassis with 3 variants each. (4 chassis, 12 mechs)
over an 80 dollar "ultimate collector" setup of 1 chassis, 5 variants, a collector, and 2 heroes. (1 chassis, 8 mechs).
It's irking me like the latest big money grab. Less work, more profit, less bang for the buck.

Well it makes them more money, which isn't a bad thing.

You spend how much you want to, if any at all, and that's that. If someone else wants to spend $85 dollars on the Phoenix Hawk then more power to them. I'm probably sticking to Standard+Hero packs if this trend continues, unless there is a really compelling reason (I would buy the reinforcements for an ECM Kingfisher) or its a mech I REALLY really love.

[CK16]

You must have never bought a Clan wave....your $80 wave was BS sorry, still kinda irked by that, the whole Clan superior to IS as the rule for $40 is plain stupid and in my opinion totally dead as game is close to balance if not more leaning towards IS because a few over quirked chassis.

[Lucian Nostra]

Gib.. Turkey.. I don't care if it's Dire Wolf light... There's plenty of this mech light that function well and the Turkey will be no exception, and I expect it to out twist and be a bit more nimble than our current D-whales

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 08 April 2016 - 02:58 PM.

[Koniving]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

Well it makes them more money, which isn't a bad thing.

You spend how much you want to, if any at all, and that's that. If someone else wants to spend $85 dollars on the Phoenix Hawk then more power to them. I'm probably sticking to Standard+Hero packs if this trend continues, unless there is a really compelling reason (I would buy the reinforcements for an ECM Kingfisher) or its a mech I REALLY really love.

While true, eh...

Also I think that just inspires them to do "important" variants behind an even steeper pay wall. What if I just want the collector version of the Phoenix?

What if I only wanted the reinforcements so I can earn my third one by, oh I don't know....playing the game?
-----------
I might buy the heroes if they are affordable compared to what their MC price would be... but in the Phoenix Hawk's case, it's 45 tons for god's sake. On a 30% off sale, the MC value is barely more than half what is being charged. So I'm waiting. Now if it was an 80 to 100 tonner, I'd be on it. Need to sit with a calculator to see if the 75 ton heroes are worth the 15 or not.

CK16, on 08 April 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

You must have never bought a Clan wave....your $80 wave was BS sorry, still kinda irked by that, the whole Clan superior to IS as the rule for $40 is plain stupid and in my opinion totally dead as game is close to balance if not more leaning towards IS because a few over quirked chassis.

New pricing scheme.
Notice the new Omnimech is only 20 dollars?
And much of the chatter of how even Russ feels the 30 dollar priceline was "overpriced"?

Also:
IIC? 80 dollar pack.
And:

Made possible by an incredibly generous fan.


This was my doing.


This was donated to me.

So technically I bought "one" Clan wave. Thing is as stated, the new Omnimechs are repriced to 20 for a chassis. Thus a new Wave of 4 would be 80 dollars.

Edited by Koniving, 08 April 2016 - 03:11 PM.

[pbiggz]

Lucian Nostra, on 08 April 2016 - 02:56 PM, said:

Gib.. Turkey.. I don't care if it's Dire Wolf light... There's plenty of this mech light that function well and the Turkey will be no exception.

Food for thought.

Turkina implemented as a battlemech rather than an omni. Slightly inflated hardpoints, engine flexibility, no pod swapping but oh well. How good would it be then? (the answer is very good).

So whats the point of the omnimech rules in MWO? Omnimechs are supposed to have battlefield versatility, and they effectively have the opposite. If being flexible was the purpose of Omnimech rules, then they have failed, have they not? So why are we still trying to use them.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lucian Nostra, on 08 April 2016 - 02:56 PM, said:

Gib.. Turkey.. I don't care if it's Dire Wolf light... There's plenty of this mech light that function well and the Turkey will be no exception, and I expect it to out twist and be a bit more nimble than our current D-whales

What a lovely CJF lanc... err uhh... huh?

[Lucian Nostra]

pbiggz, on 08 April 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

Food for thought.

Turkina implemented as a battlemech rather than an omni. Slightly inflated hardpoints, engine flexibility, no pod swapping but oh well. How good would it be then? (the answer is very good).

So whats the point of the omnimech rules in MWO? Omnimechs are supposed to have battlefield versatility, and they effectively have the opposite. If being flexible was the purpose of Omnimech rules, then they have failed, have they not? So why are we still trying to use them.

it is interesting in that many people say "engines to big!" or "engines to small!" and it's like.. it's gonna be either or on heavy - assault mechs since you can't just slap in whatever-rating-you-so-choose.

As much as it's lame it does serve a purpose overall in the grand scheme of balance but yeah turkey could benefit a lot.

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 08 April 2016 - 03:07 PM.

[1453 R]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 April 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

yeah but 12 MG, 4xaSRM6, 3x LPL and 2 Flamers sounds like...

SO
MUCH
FUN!!!

Only three ASRM-6, unfortunately. Three of the missile hardpoints are in the CT and head, respectively. Which could still mean four ASRM-4...or just the stock six SRM-4 and hang the Ghost Heat

pbiggz, on 08 April 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

The sunder was only ever really in mechwarrior 3, and I don't think they entirely did it justice, though it was at least mean looking. All I would ask for is the freedom to change my engine if I want to, and I'd give up hardpoint swapping to do it.

Additional stuff later

The problem is that if you convert OmniMechs into BattleMechs and force everything in the game to use exactly the same construction rules...well, first of all you break a huge majority of people's existing OmniBuilds for what amounts to little real gain. Instant firestorm. That sort of bait-and-switch can kill games.

You're also eliminating any realistic variance between Clan and Inner Sphere machines, and thus any real choice between the factions. if you'd like to change your engines out, there's a huge number of 'Mechs capable of doing just that...right here in the southern half of the star map. Even when Clans get more BattleMechs and the Sphere gets some OmniMechs, the choices between the two chassis types makes for some interesting design games.

The choice between OmniMech and BattleMech is supposed to be a meaningful one. If you can't tolerate a specific OmniMech, then pilot something else. Personally, I enjoy the differences between the two and find Omni construction generally more engaging/interesting that Battle construction. Any given BattleMech only really has one 'Optimal' fit to run with, since its given parameters never change. Being able to swap pods around lets me try all sorts of interesting experiments on 9certain) OmniMechs, though, and trying to compensate for some machines' non-optimal structure layouts can be a fun challenge.

Also helps prevent, at least a little bit, the tendency to turn Everything That Is into the exact same Metatinator. If you have to keep that oversized engine, well hell - may as well work up a loadout that makes use of the increased agility, eh?

[ScarecrowES]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2016 - 03:00 PM, said:

What a lovely CJF lanc... err uhh... huh?

We're missing a point here somewhere...

Fire Falcon, Black Lanner, Night Gyr, Turkina aaaaaaaand... hmmm.

[pbiggz]

ScarecrowES, on 08 April 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

We're missing a point here somewhere...

Fire Falcon, Black Lanner, Night Gyr, Turkina aaaaaaaand... hmmm.

Lucian Nostra, on 08 April 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

it is interesting in that many people say "engines to big!" or "engines to small!" and it's like.. it's gonna be either or on heavy - assault mechs since you can't just slap in whatever-rating-you-so-choose.

As much as it's lame it does serve a purpose overall in the grand scheme of balance but yeah turkey could benefit a lot.

If you give players the option to change the engine as they see fit then AT LEAST the engine is as big or small as YOU want it to be. The mech, which we all generally agree is useless with a 285 XL engine fixed, would actually have value.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 08 April 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

I dunno.
I like the idea of an 80 dollar pack of 4 chassis with 3 variants each. (4 chassis, 12 mechs)
over an 80 dollar "ultimate collector" setup of 1 chassis, 5 variants, a collector, and 2 heroes. (1 chassis, 8 mechs).
It's irking me like the latest big money grab. Less work, more profit, less bang for the buck.

that's assuming our only two options, both of which are bad.

But at least Mech a Month allows us non Pokemech types to pick and choose. And Jumbo packs didn't come with Heros.

The real bone of contention, IMO is the Value or lack thereof, overall with the Collectors Pack, which is overpriced, annoying in that it simply gives you a doubled chassis in your mech lab, and many of us don't liek the one deemed "Collectible".

So instead of arguing to go pack to another bad sales model that was obviously failing(or PGI wouldn't have changed it), I would instead enjoin everyone to get to gether campaigning PGI to put the Value into the Collectors Pack.

My Idea is make it a $10 dollar upgrade, that is a token placeable on any ONE variant in the Standard Pack, as a 1x thing (much as one gets to choose faction skins, etc, 1x). This reduces the cost to a palatable level, enhances player satisfaction by allowing each player to run the mech of his choice as his "money maker" (which if he chooses poorly base don MEta, I fee about as sorry as for people who pay IRL for FoTMeta mechs, etc,), is not an issue anymore because there is no more custom geometry, and the skin will mech to the base model of any variant. Also, it removes the mechlab clutter of the pointless extra version of the same variant. Some stock mech guys might like it, but I don't see most people clamoring for 2 of the same chassis.

Seems like a win win, and people retain the ability to freely pick and choose what they like. Also, Ultimate packs should come with a 10% discount. PGI realyl needs someone to take some marketing classes. even people on the fence often jump at "perceived" value like that.

They should also, probably have a graduated price scale for the Standard Pack following the pricing of buying standard and Champion Mechs vis IRL, but that is another battle (since even though the idea is that Assault Does Not trump Light, perceived value, exacerbated by PGIs own price modeling is that Lights are less valuable).

Might not be perfect, I'm certainly open to other ideas and modifications, but I would rather fight the right battle, which Jumbo vs Single, IMO is not.

1453 R, on 08 April 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

Only three ASRM-6, unfortunately. Three of the missile hardpoints are in the CT and head, respectively. Which could still mean four ASRM-4...or just the stock six SRM-4 and hang the Ghost Heat


The problem is that if you convert OmniMechs into BattleMechs and force everything in the game to use exactly the same construction rules...well, first of all you break a huge majority of people's existing OmniBuilds for what amounts to little real gain. Instant firestorm. That sort of bait-and-switch can kill games.

You're also eliminating any realistic variance between Clan and Inner Sphere machines, and thus any real choice between the factions. if you'd like to change your engines out, there's a huge number of 'Mechs capable of doing just that...right here in the southern half of the star map. Even when Clans get more BattleMechs and the Sphere gets some OmniMechs, the choices between the two chassis types makes for some interesting design games.

The choice between OmniMech and BattleMech is supposed to be a meaningful one. If you can't tolerate a specific OmniMech, then pilot something else. Personally, I enjoy the differences between the two and find Omni construction generally more engaging/interesting that Battle construction. Any given BattleMech only really has one 'Optimal' fit to run with, since its given parameters never change. Being able to swap pods around lets me try all sorts of interesting experiments on 9certain) OmniMechs, though, and trying to compensate for some machines' non-optimal structure layouts can be a fun challenge.

Also helps prevent, at least a little bit, the tendency to turn Everything That Is into the exact same Metatinator. If you have to keep that oversized engine, well hell - may as well work up a loadout that makes use of the increased agility, eh?

eh, in the head means no Artemis, period... darn!

pbiggz, on 08 April 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

Clan XL is a different beast entirely. iv advocated for a total simplification of the engine system so that both sides have identical standard and XL engines (IS basically get clan XL). Give standard engines a SIGNIFICANT durability boost to keep them competitive with the XLs, and leave them at that. This of course breaks some stock loadouts, which further points to my argument that keeping so close to stock all the time as an unbreakable rule is pointless. Use stock as a guide to develop a mech, understand what the mech often did, and what it could potentially do when customized, and build the new "stock" loadout that way.

Having Clan XL be punished by omnimech rules is not a good way to balance clan vs is XL, because it dooms IS omnimechs like the sunder, more than half the clan omnimechs, and solves no problems.

and invalidating future tech items like LFEs by making the XLs identical id not a great answer either.

Lucian Nostra, on 08 April 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

it is interesting in that many people say "engines to big!" or "engines to small!" and it's like.. it's gonna be either or on heavy - assault mechs since you can't just slap in whatever-rating-you-so-choose.

As much as it's lame it does serve a purpose overall in the grand scheme of balance but yeah turkey could benefit a lot.

and it opens a huge can of worm and precedent that makes Pandora's Box look like a keepsake.

Will reiterate NO. No reason to fix what is not actually broken. This is taking a chainsaw to trim a hangnail.

[Gas Guzzler]

pbiggz, on 08 April 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

If you give players the option to change the engine as they see fit then AT LEAST the engine is as big or small as YOU want it to be. The mech, which we all generally agree is useless with a 285 XL engine fixed, would actually have value.

I know how you feel about quirks, but if you were to give the Turkey some nice big Accel/Decel/Turn Rate/Torso Twist Rate quirks and a significantly better torso twist range than the Dire, you would at least have a mech that can poke better than the Dire and isn't so helpless against lights. It would be a little bit different without surpassing or being DOA.

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

I know how you feel about quirks, but if you were to give the Turkey some nice big Accel/Decel/Turn Rate/Torso Twist Rate quirks and a significantly better torso twist range than the Dire, you would at least have a mech that can poke better than the Dire and isn't so helpless against lights. It would be a little bit different without surpassing or being DOA.

I am curious...what do people think of the state of the DW since the KDK will be able to do demonstrably the same thing with significantly stronger mobility?

I mean, would it finally warrant a de-nerfing of the poor bugger's agility?

[pbiggz]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 April 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

that's assuming our only two options, both of which are bad.

But at least Mech a Month allows us non Pokemech types to pick and choose. And Jumbo packs didn't come with Heros.

The real bone of contention, IMO is the Value or lack thereof, overall with the Collectors Pack, which is overpriced, annoying in that it simply gives you a doubled chassis in your mech lab, and many of us don't liek the one deemed "Collectible".

So instead of arguing to go pack to another bad sales model that was obviously failing(or PGI wouldn't have changed it), I would instead enjoin everyone to get to gether campaigning PGI to put the Value into the Collectors Pack.

My Idea is make it a $10 dollar upgrade, that is a token placeable on any ONE variant in the Standard Pack, as a 1x thing (much as one gets to choose faction skins, etc, 1x). This reduces the cost to a palatable level, enhances player satisfaction by allowing each player to run the mech of his choice as his "money maker" (which if he chooses poorly base don MEta, I fee about as sorry as for people who pay IRL for FoTMeta mechs, etc,), is not an issue anymore because there is no more custom geometry, and the skin will mech to the base model of any variant. Also, it removes the mechlab clutter of the pointless extra version of the same variant. Some stock mech guys might like it, but I don't see most people clamoring for 2 of the same chassis.

Seems like a win win, and people retain the ability to freely pick and choose what they like. Also, Ultimate packs should come with a 10% discount. PGI realyl needs someone to take some marketing classes. even people on the fence often jump at "perceived" value like that.

They should also, probably have a graduated price scale for the Standard Pack following the pricing of buying standard and Champion Mechs vis IRL, but that is another battle (since even though the idea is that Assault Does Not trump Light, perceived value, exacerbated by PGIs own price modeling is that Lights are less valuable).

Might not be perfect, I'm certainly open to other ideas and modifications, but I would rather fight the right battle, which Jumbo vs Single, IMO is not.


eh, in the head means no Artemis, period... darn!


and invalidating future tech items like LFEs by making the XLs identical id not a great answer either.


and it opens a huge can of worm and precedent that makes Pandora's Box look like a keepsake.

Will reiterate NO. No reason to fix what is not actually broken. This is taking a chainsaw to trim a hangnail.

LFEs were a bandaid fix, and thats where we apparently disagree on this issue. Omni rules ARE broken. Their implementation in MWO does the exact opposite of what they were supposed to do. They're supposed to be super versatile and super expensive. MWO just got the expensive part right, but versatile? No.

Gyrok, on 08 April 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

I am curious...what do people think of the state of the DW since the KDK will be able to do demonstrably the same thing with significantly stronger mobility?

I mean, would it finally warrant a de-nerfing of the poor bugger's agility?

It would warrant unlocking the engine.

[Chuanhao]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 April 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

that's assuming our only two options, both of which are bad.

But at least Mech a Month allows us non Pokemech types to pick and choose. And Jumbo packs didn't come with Heros.

The real bone of contention, IMO is the Value or lack thereof, overall with the Collectors Pack, which is overpriced, annoying in that it simply gives you a doubled chassis in your mech lab, and many of us don't liek the one deemed "Collectible".

So instead of arguing to go pack to another bad sales model that was obviously failing(or PGI wouldn't have changed it), I would instead enjoin everyone to get to gether campaigning PGI to put the Value into the Collectors Pack.

My Idea is make it a $10 dollar upgrade, that is a token placeable on any ONE variant in the Standard Pack, as a 1x thing (much as one gets to choose faction skins, etc, 1x). This reduces the cost to a palatable level, enhances player satisfaction by allowing each player to run the mech of his choice as his "money maker" (which if he chooses poorly base don MEta, I fee about as sorry as for people who pay IRL for FoTMeta mechs, etc,), is not an issue anymore because there is no more custom geometry, and the skin will mech to the base model of any variant. Also, it removes the mechlab clutter of the pointless extra version of the same variant. Some stock mech guys might like it, but I don't see most people clamoring for 2 of the same chassis.

Seems like a win win, and people retain the ability to freely pick and choose what they like. Also, Ultimate packs should come with a 10% discount. PGI realyl needs someone to take some marketing classes. even people on the fence often jump at "perceived" value like that.

They should also, probably have a graduated price scale for the Standard Pack following the pricing of buying standard and Champion Mechs vis IRL, but that is another battle (since even though the idea is that Assault Does Not trump Light, perceived value, exacerbated by PGIs own price modeling is that Lights are less valuable).

Yup. Its all about choice.

I certainly agree that moving away from a four pack was a great move as it ensures choice. the current mech pack with your choice of add-ons is a fantastic idea as well.

I find the collectible the most meaningless add-on so i never got it, but having a choice of which mech to be the "one" is a good idea.

I am also glad that the viper is also $20 or $35 with a hero. That is a great decrease from the ala carte price of $55. and provides some equality to the IS mechs.

I note that the $55 was justifiable due to clan omnimechs beiing almost entirely XL based (and so we have to pay for them) but the mechanics of weapons is such that clan weapons are not exactly OP, and hence, not justifiable for a premium. and to pay more for Omniness is also not "fair" as the lack of customisation (endo, FF) etc is not catered for.

So I still feel all in all viper is a good deal as is. You choose exactly what you want. I will never buy the ultimate. I just dont need so many of one chassis, and an omni to boot.

But the standard + hero is a good attractive package, but it must be a mech I want. and that is the Night Gyr.

I wonder also How many would pay for a light at $20. Many forgot that u already have - Urbanmech

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 08 April 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

I am curious...what do people think of the state of the DW since the KDK will be able to do demonstrably the same thing with significantly stronger mobility?

I mean, would it finally warrant a de-nerfing of the poor bugger's agility?

I wouldn't be against that, the Dire is only used in certain situations right now. The Dire does get more firepower, probably not enough to warrant the decreased mobility though..

Interested to see how the balance of those things goes. I know people are assuming the K-Bear is going to roflstomp the Dire but we won't know until it drops.

[Imperius]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

I wouldn't be against that, the Dire is only used in certain situations right now. The Dire does get more firepower, probably not enough to warrant the decreased mobility though..

Interested to see how the balance of those things goes. I know people are assuming the K-Bear is going to roflstomp the Dire but we won't know until it drops.

Kodiak needs atlas structure quirks to live, if it comes without, well I would hate to be the mod on that day.

[Gas Guzzler]

Imperius, on 08 April 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

Kodiak needs atlas structure quirks to live, if it comes without, well I would hate to be the mod on that day.

The Dire isn't useless without structure quirks though...