1049 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

Why is that bad though? They made the black lanner good.

The Black Lanner wasn't good because of mektek though, it was good because MW4 as a whole didn't adhere to the tonnage of BT, that's it. Almost all mechs in MW4 had more tonnage to play with than they really would've had in TT, I think even the Nova Cat had more tonnage to play with.

When I talk about the mektek disease, one of the best examples was the Ares and Tenchi.

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

Annihilator ain't an omni, you could up its engine in MWO context.

I'm pretty sure he knows that, which is why he said it would only be able to get up to a 240 engine within PGI's engine cap rules, unless they made an exception for it like they have done on a several occasions.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 April 2016 - 08:57 AM.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Metus regem, on 11 April 2016 - 07:36 AM, said:

And they kick ***!

But seriously, the Imp is a Swiss army knife mech, it would have enough hardpoints to do just about anything at any range, as well as have the tonnage to do it. the Annhilator would be something scarry to bump into for the attackers in CW...

Hell the Annhilator makes it into my top 5 city fighting killers.

1. Demolisher Tank
2. SRM carrier
3. Annhilator
4. Hunchback IIC
5. Hunchback


The Urbanmech makes it to number 6 on that list, so still in the top ten.

I had a lance devoted to melee combat in my battalion. You don't want to know what they did to Urbies and other slow mechs.

That said, I found jump capable mechs far more viable for urban combat. I played large battles with mixed arms. That included ASFs and DropShips, Infantry and Artillery. One of the great things about being able to jump around was also being able to forcibly put enemy units within partial cover. It made head shotting them vastly easier, which in turn meant more salvage.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 April 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

Yeah. Annihilator. Cool, though one trick pony TT mech. That without massive changes to their current rules, or a huge engine exemption a la Urbanmech (though far less likely because the ANH actually has firepower) gets stuck with a 240 engine.

Just sayin.

Yup, but like I said, the ANH would be a hell of a defensive unit in CW, have it hide in the valleys around the objectives and murder some poor ******* that bumps into it. Most I would do with it here, is let it have a 250 engine cap, as the weight difference between a 240 standard and a 250 standard is .5t once you factor in the external heat sink required by the 240.

[Ao]

It would be nice to see the Black Python added to the game it was my all time favorite heavy clan mech. Ridiculous load out and heavy on heat but it was a great contender at its weight like a Warhammer. Please release this mech upon us please!!!!!
It would be really cool if there was a roster of up and coming mechs I am really rooting for this 1!

[Metus regem]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 11 April 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

I had a lance devoted to melee combat in my battalion. You don't want to know what they did to Urbies and other slow mechs.

That said, I found jump capable mechs far more viable for urban combat. I played large battles with mixed arms. That included ASFs and DropShips, Infantry and Artillery. One of the great things about being able to jump around was also being able to forcibly put enemy units within partial cover. It made head shotting them vastly easier, which in turn meant more salvage.

Very, very true. But trust me, nothing is as scary as dual UAC20's barking landing 80 damage on you, or 66 SRM's flying at you, hell quad LB-10X's hurt like hell to!

The advantage of Urbanmechs was that they were cheap defenders; the 60L with an AC 20 packed a lot of fire power in the cheap disposable unit, not something to be underestimated.

Edited by Metus regem, 11 April 2016 - 09:02 AM.

[Ao]

Black Python was 3051 great chassis needs to be added for sure 75 heavy. Clan tech.

[Gas Guzzler]

I still think Turkina and Kingfisher should make it in game, it would round out the early omnis nicely. Yeah they might not be "meta ultra comp" (although with chassis restrictions akin to MRBC I could see the Turkina getting a look in certain situations), but they are nice mechs.

Remember, we can't just release super awesome comp mechs every time... that's just power creep and after a certain point won't really be possible.

[Bishop Steiner]

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

Annihilator ain't an omni, you could up its engine in MWO context. That said, there's not much the annihilator can do that the king crab cant, with better hitboxes. The beer belly is the death of the annihilator, and I say that with a heavy heart, remembering how scary that thing was in mechwarrior 3, but then again, lbx autocannons were good in that game, and knockdowns really ****** you up good.

240 IS up engined.

Comes with a 200. Current base engine cap is 1.2x stock engine. With all it's negative impact on mobility.

And yeah, Beer belly, skinny arms, Awesome level hardpoints.

Yes, in theory any and all things COULD be changed. But then it's not really an Annihilator anymore... so what's the point, right?

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

Why is that bad though? They made the black lanner good. Im entirely in favour of the devs changing a mech if it means making it actually good. I'd love the turkina if it wasn't hot garbage. I'd love the viper too if it wasn't hot garbage. God knows alex made some beautiful art as usual and it makes me WANT to pilot that mech, but the vanilla BT values ruin it as usual. Why is everyone so attached to those numbers? They're at best, useless in a real time game, and at worst, destructive.

Black Lanner though is an actual canon Mech they mucked with (like MW4 did ALL canon mechs). What is referenced are things like the Pitbull, Warlord, etc which are mech designs they pulled out of their butt.

Metus regem, on 11 April 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

Yup, but like I said, the ANH would be a hell of a defensive unit in CW, have it hide in the valleys around the objectives and murder some poor ******* that bumps into it. Most I would do with it here, is let it have a 250 engine cap, as the weight difference between a 240 standard and a 250 standard is .5t once you factor in the external heat sink required by the 240.

And a +70% accel/decel rate, and +200% yaw rate so it actually can track anything?

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 April 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

And a +70% accel/decel rate, and +200% yaw rate so it actually can track anything?

Well given it's actual engine rating and how assaults are now, I wouldn't get my hopes up. It'd be like a quad nerfed Victor covered in molasses, trying to torso twist. A Dire Whale could walk faster than it could track.

[Gas Guzzler]

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

I'd love the turkina if it wasn't hot garbage. I'd love the viper too if it wasn't hot garbage.

There is no proof of either of these statements.

The Black Knight was declared "garbage" and DoA before it was released. It is now the best heavy in game.

Even before the re-quirkening the BK-6B was a monster, it just didn't gain popularity until people saw the new quirks and were like "wow, lets use that thing".

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 April 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

240 IS up engined.

Comes with a 200. Current base engine cap is 1.2x stock engine. With all it's negative impact on mobility.

And yeah, Beer belly, skinny arms, Awesome level hardpoints.

Yes, in theory any and all things COULD be changed. But then it's not really an Annihilator anymore... so what's the point, right?


Black Lanner though is an actual canon Mech they mucked with (like MW4 did ALL canon mechs). What is referenced are things like the Pitbull, Warlord, etc which are mech designs they pulled out of their butt.


And a +70% accel/decel rate, and +200% yaw rate so it actually can track anything?

I was thinking more of a twist speed closer to that of the King Crab, and that mech I find a complete insult to the Dire Wolf, both with the same 300 engine, the King Crab as twice the twist range and speed of the Dire Wolf, if anything they should be the same. Or maybe more along the lines of an Atlas, but yes, I do like the accel/decel quirks for it, maybe not 70% but 50% sounds about right.

Gas Guzzler, on 11 April 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

There is no proof of either of these statements.

The Black Knight was declared "garbage" and DoA before it was released. It is now the best heavy in game.

Even before the re-quirkening the BK-6B was a monster, it just didn't gain popularity until people saw the new quirks and were like "wow, lets use that thing".

Yes, beacuse the meta ****** are to narrow minded in what they view as good, every mech has value, and with the right pilot is damn nasty. Even the Vindicator can be a pain in the back side to deal with, with the right pilot at the sticks.

[Gas Guzzler]

Metus regem, on 11 April 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

Yes, beacuse the meta ****** are to narrow minded in what they view as good, every mech has value, and with the right pilot is damn nasty. Even the Vindicator can be a pain in the back side to deal with, with the right pilot at the sticks.

Eh, the Vindicator can be okay, but i mean, the only real difference for the 6B was increased structure quirks. At release, it could sling out a 58-63 damage vomit alpha with 19 DHS and a XL 350, with a 10% heat gen quirk and 12.5% range quirk (it has less range now). The only difference is it would go down a little earlier, but really, it was never garbage despite the complaints and angst prior to its release.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 11 April 2016 - 09:36 AM.

[pbiggz]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 April 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

When I talk about the mektek disease, one of the best examples was the Ares and Tenchi.

which are both cool mechs, and also both apocryphal. What's your point? And why is it a disease?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 April 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure he knows that, which is why he said it would only be able to get up to a 240 engine within PGI's engine cap rules, unless they made an exception for it like they have done on a several occasions.

My mistake.

[pbiggz]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 April 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

There is no proof of either of these statements.

The Black Knight was declared "garbage" and DoA before it was released. It is now the best heavy in game.

Even before the re-quirkening the BK-6B was a monster, it just didn't gain popularity until people saw the new quirks and were like "wow, lets use that thing".

for the record when I saw the black knight hard points for the first time I said it would be a scary mech, nobody else agreed, and there is a precedent for the turkina being garbage, because its a substandard direwolf. At best, it will do what a direwolf does, maybe barely as well, and that is not setting the bar particularly high. (this is code for please buff the direwolf by the way).

The viper, despite our little argument, will suck on the virtue of being a 40 tonner in a game where the only objective is killing other mechs. Even IF you could free up more tonnage for weapons, it would still suffer from being not-quite-light/not-quite-medium and therefore doing the jobs of neither as efficiently as a lighter or heavier mech would. Same thing the cicada suffers from.

Edited by pbiggz, 11 April 2016 - 09:48 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

which are both cool mechs, and also both apocryphal. What's your point?

That adding non-canon mechs is not something we need in this game.

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

And why is it a disease?

Because I was lazy and couldn't come up with a better word for the problem that drove home how widespread the problem was with mektek mechs.

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

Same thing the cicada suffers from.

Cicada suffers from being too large compared to 35 tonners, and bad hitboxes (that glass jaw), only one of which is due to it being 40 tons.

[Gas Guzzler]

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

for the record when I saw the black knight hard points for the first time I said it would be a scary mech, nobody else agreed, and there is a precedent for the turkina being garbage, because its a substandard direwolf. At best, it will do what a direwolf does, maybe barely as well, and that is not setting the bar particularly high.

The viper, despite our little argument, will suck on the virtue of being a 40 tonner in a game where the only objective is killing other mechs. Even IF you could free up more tonnage for weapons, it would still suffer from being not-quite-light/not-quite-medium and therefore doing the jobs of neither as efficiently as a lighter or heavier mech would. Same thing the cicada suffers from.

Yeah, the Turkina would be a Dire with inferior firepower, but if they did make some efforts to provide some agility quirks to it (I know you hate quirks, but they are how the game is balanced currently, when in their absence one mech would eclipse another) and give it better torso twist range than both the Dire and the Kodiak, like 90-100 degrees, it will at least be more maneuverable and will allow you to shoot sideways while walking which would be a nice mobility upgrade. Just saying, I know the data we have in front of us, with podspace and hardpoint layouts, and locked XL285, proves it to be an inferior Dire, but there are other metrics that come in to play that we don't see until release. The Kingfisher could also get Gargoyle level structure and agility quirks and such, been up that road before, don't need to again.

As far as 40 tonners go, that is true, that 40 tonners are often meddling, but to be honest, I feel that all weight slots should have an option available, so I am glad we got a 40 tonner, and I would rather have the fast 40 tonner than one of the slower ones. So, I'm happy with the Viper, and I don't think it will be terrible unless they make it on the Nova scale.

[Bishop Steiner]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 11 April 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

Well given it's actual engine rating and how assaults are now, I wouldn't get my hopes up. It'd be like a quad nerfed Victor covered in molasses, trying to torso twist. A Dire Whale could walk faster than it could track.

exactly my point. And they would probably invent a new scaling category for it "super huge".

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

for the record when I saw the black knight hard points for the first time I said it would be a scary mech, nobody else agreed, and there is a precedent for the turkina being garbage, because its a substandard direwolf. At best, it will do what a direwolf does, maybe barely as well, and that is not setting the bar particularly high. (this is code for please buff the direwolf by the way).

The viper, despite our little argument, will suck on the virtue of being a 40 tonner in a game where the only objective is killing other mechs. Even IF you could free up more tonnage for weapons, it would still suffer from being not-quite-light/not-quite-medium and therefore doing the jobs of neither as efficiently as a lighter or heavier mech would. Same thing the cicada suffers from.

The Black Knight WAS hot garbage until quirks made it the meta monster it is today.

Also, as much as you like to hate on the cicada, it's still well represented in the game and is often favored by some very good players in here. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it trash.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 April 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

The Black Knight WAS hot garbage until quirks made it the meta monster it is today.

Ironically, the 6B had better weapon quirks when it was released (slightly more range), it just didn't have as much structure. But to be honest, the 6B was NEVER garbage. Seriously never ever garbage. It was a monster. It had less structure, but my unit mates seemed to think it was pretty tanky, messing around in private lobbies it wasn't easy to take down, and 58-63 damage alpha strikes in less than a second is disgusting.

Actually, in terms of mechs with greater than 50 matches, the pre-Dec. 1st 6B is my all time 3rd best heavy in terms of KDR, and 2nd best heavy in terms of average damage.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 11 April 2016 - 10:08 AM.

[pbiggz]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 April 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

That adding non-canon mechs is not something we need in this game.


Because I was lazy and couldn't come up with a better word for the problem that drove home how widespread the problem was with mektek mechs.

The tenchi is cool and i'd be happy to see it in another mechwarrior game, but I don't have any particular wanting for non-canon mechs, for the record. As for what mektek did to many of the mechs they added, that isn't a problem. Again, they had to keep the lights on for 10 years, and they did a pretty good job, I don't know what you were expecting because for every "non-canon" mech they added they added 4 canon ones, including everyone's precious wasp and whatever else. They also weren't afraid to change mechs which wouldn't perform in the context of mechwarrior 4's build system, which was completely different from CBT. Can you imagine a stock banshee in mw4? that thing was undergunned in CBT, it would have been non-functional in 4. They had an obligation to add FUNCTIONING content to their game so they did it. I don't know why everyone gets so worked up at that concept. The TROs are not the bible, in fact, when it comes to mechwarrior games, they are useless.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 April 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

Cicada suffers from being too large compared to 35 tonners, and bad hitboxes (that glass jaw), only one of which is due to it being 40 tons.

but at the end of the day, its a 40 tonner. Its less armed and armoured than a proper medium, and slower than a proper light, so what's it supposed to do?

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 11 April 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

Yes, beacuse the meta ****** are to narrow minded in what they view as good, every mech has value, and with the right pilot is damn nasty. Even the Vindicator can be a pain in the back side to deal with, with the right pilot at the sticks.

pilot skill vs relative mech worth are not one and the same.

You take almost any of those Vindi Jocks and stick them in a Stormcrow or Hunchback, and 99% of them will do far better in those other 2 designs. Because they are not cursed with a mix of indisputable issues, like low hardpoints and too large a game model.

I appreciate how you and CDLord try to promote the concept that all mechs are good, but objectively speaking, it's not true. It's a matter of some people have the skill set or playstyle to make a substandard perform function, and sometimes function pretty well. But none of that changes the objective realities of comparative mobilities, hardpoint quantity/quality, physical geometry/hitboxes, etc.

If I stuck to my TBRs and SCRs I would have been tier 1 6 months ago. Because I prefer and have more fun in my non Meta, but objectively speaking, inferior mechs, I am mucking slowly through tier 2 (and probably have backslid thanks to Archer/Rifleman grinding...ugh!)

Gas Guzzler, on 11 April 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

Ironically, the 6B had better weapon quirks when it was released (slightly more range), it just didn't have as much structure. But to be honest, the 6B was NEVER garbage. Seriously never ever garbage. It was a monster. It had less structure, but my unit mates seemed to think it was pretty tanky, messing around in private lobbies it wasn't easy to take down, and 58-63 damage alpha strikes in less than a second is disgusting.

yet at the time of those quirkiness it still lost out to the TBR almost every time. (of course, the skill tree/agility nerf is what finally knocked the TBR off Tier 0, to just a good tier 1 mech, a fact that brings me much merriment... since before the laser duration crap and everything else, I had promoted a 5-10% overall agility nerf to it and the SCR... and oh look! *SMH*)

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

The tenchi is cool and i'd be happy to see it in another mechwarrior game, but I don't have any particular wanting for non-canon mechs, for the record. As for what mektek did to many of the mechs they added, that isn't a problem. Again, they had to keep the lights on for 10 years, and they did a pretty good job, I don't know what you were expecting because for every "non-canon" mech they added they added 4 canon ones, including everyone's precious wasp and whatever else. They also weren't afraid to change mechs which wouldn't perform in the context of mechwarrior 4's build system, which was completely different from CBT. Can you imagine a stock banshee in mw4? that thing was undergunned in CBT, it would have been non-functional in 4. They had an obligation to add FUNCTIONING content to their game so they did it. I don't know why everyone gets so worked up at that concept. The TROs are not the bible, in fact, when it comes to mechwarrior games, they are useless.



but at the end of the day, its a 40 tonner. Its less armed and armoured than a proper medium, and slower than a proper light, so what's it supposed to do?

Exactly what a a sizable number of players make it do. Work.

So according to your world view, why do we have any mechs in the game outside of 35, 55, 75, 85 and 100 tons? Those seem to be the only "proper" weights.