99 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Roadkill, on 05 April 2016 - 07:47 AM, said:

so that you could make it look like I didn't already mention using my armor?

I get my own locks from 100 meters back. Other mechs don't block LOS for lock purposes, and firing lines aren't always humping hills.

There is a bit of a contradiction between these statements, which is why I singled out that statement.

You are talking about sitting 100m back from the rest and that mechs don't block LOS for lock (but block shots I suppose otherwise you wouldn't mention blocking). There should be no hiding or sitting back 100m just because you are LRMs.

You are correct firing lines are often just everyone standing out in the open in some sort of line, where no one can afford to hide, otherwise it is humping some sort of terrain and playing the poke game.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 April 2016 - 07:55 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

The two loadouts that I am really a fan of are the Gauss-3 cLPL and the 2UAC10, 2 cLPL versions. They are good, but as has been said before, more dangerous mechs exist with only a small setback in mobility.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

High heat capacity HGN-IIC-A

Good news! You get to finally use all those SHS you have cluttering up your mech lab.

[Roughneck Cobra]

Its still not out? Sure 10am for them is 5pm for me, or is it 6pm for the UK from time savings and all that?

[DjPush]

Highlander IIC is fantastic. I fell in love with them immediately. So much available tonnage.

https://youtu.be/Oxp1PAn5lmk
https://youtu.be/frLoBUNAkWg

Edited by DjPush, 05 April 2016 - 08:38 AM.

[Escef]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 05 April 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

High heat capacity HGN-IIC-A

Good news! You get to finally use all those SHS you have cluttering up your mech lab.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9ee1e936ea4121a

Nope, still useless. Faster, better armored, more heat dissipation. Only edge the single sink version has is higher max heat threshhold.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

NeoCodex, on 05 April 2016 - 02:32 AM, said:

I didn't dive deep into these, but - is there at least one advantage over the IS? HBK and JNR IIC are reasonable upgrades, but this seems like a downgrade.



Ok, let's see. These builds seem pretty legit. Except weapon convergence couldn't be farther apart, which makes it really horrible. That RT completely ruins whatever the IS HGN had going for, not to even mention the quirks. From what I've seen my best bet would be brawler UAC build with SRMs, the spreaded hardpoints just won't work well at longer ranges.

And indeed sure is a challenge. Good luck!

Brawling builds are horribly weak with the HGN-IIC because of how sluggish it is, convergence is irrelevant with lasers because instant convergence with instant travel time. Convergence is only an issue for multiple projectile weapons.

Believe me, I have over 250 matches across my three HGN-IICs and was top 10 on two of them for much of the leader board, they make terrible brawlers but excellent long range mechs.

Curccu, on 05 April 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

But you got double UAC10 there, not 20.

Whoops. Typo, good catch.

I fixed it.

[Escef]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 05 April 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

Brawling builds are horribly weak with the HGN-IIC because of how sluggish it is...

Faster and generally better armed than an Atlas, though not as tough.

I'd call "horribly weak" an over statement. Not the ideal mech for the job, no, but definitely NOT weak at the job.

[DjPush]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 05 April 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

Brawling builds are horribly weak with the HGN-IIC because of how sluggish it is, convergence is irrelevant with lasers because instant convergence with instant travel time. Convergence is only an issue for multiple projectile weapons.

Believe me, I have over 250 matches across my three HGN-IICs and was top 10 on two of them for much of the leader board, they make terrible brawlers but excellent long range mechs.



Whoops. Typo, good catch.

I fixed it.

I beg to differ. They make great medium to close range fighters also. You just have to play smarter. You can't YOLO into 4 enemy mechs and expect to get anywhere with a HGN-IIC. However, you can use the terrain and mask your approach. Lay down a bunch of fire and then relocate.

Two words: Targeting Computer.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Escef, on 05 April 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:

Faster and generally better armed than an Atlas, though not as tough.

I'd call "horribly weak" an over statement. Not the ideal mech for the job, no, but definitely NOT weak at the job.

An Atlas with a Standard 325 due to quirks is significantly quicker and tougher than the HGN-IIC and since the meta brawler Atlas rolls a 350 its the same speed, more responsive, and much tankier.

There are two mechs that are not more agile, the MAL and DWF, and they both significatly out gun it. There are also numerous assaults that both out gun and out maneuver the HGN-IIC.

[Escef]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 05 April 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

An Atlas with a Standard 325 due to quirks is significantly quicker and tougher than the HGN-IIC and since the meta brawler Atlas rolls a 350 its the same speed, more responsive, and much tankier.

Tougher, yes, due to raw tonnage alone, then quirks on top of that. Quicker? More responsive, but definitely not faster. The Atlas with a 350 is of comparable speed, the IIC is faster by a negligible amount.

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 05 April 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

There are two mechs that are not more agile, the MAL and DWF, and they both significatly out gun it.

I have a difficult time believing the assertion that the Mauler outguns the Highlander IIC. And the Dire Wolf outguns EVERYTHING, it's meant to be the top end of the scale, not something you try to surpass.

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 05 April 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

There are also numerous assaults that both out gun and out maneuver the HGN-IIC.

Perhaps LaserBoat Gargoyles and Executioners. You'll have to show me a by-the-numbers comparison to convince me that there are "numerous" mechs that both outmaneuver and outgun the thing.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Escef, on 05 April 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

I have a difficult time believing the assertion that the Mauler outguns the Highlander IIC.

MX90 with 5 AC5 > any HGN-IIC build

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Escef, on 05 April 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

Tougher, yes, due to raw tonnage alone, then quirks on top of that. Quicker? More responsive, but definitely not faster. The Atlas with a 350 is of comparable speed, the IIC is faster by a negligible amount.



I have a difficult time believing the assertion that the Mauler outguns the Highlander IIC. And the Dire Wolf outguns EVERYTHING, it's meant to be the top end of the scale, not something you try to surpass.



Perhaps LaserBoat Gargoyles and Executioners. You'll have to show me a by-the-numbers comparison to convince me that there are "numerous" mechs that both outmaneuver and outgun the thing.

Yeah, I'll get to it once I get a bit of down time.

[Escef]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 April 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

MX90 with 5 AC5 > any HGN-IIC build

Slower, less maneuverable, requires a LOT of facetime, lower alpha. I'm not saying the 5xAC5 build doesn't have a place, it's a hell of a sustained fire vehicle. But to say that it's flat better is assinine.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Escef, on 05 April 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

But to say that it's flat better is assinine.

At the range you are bringing an assault for though, an Area of Denial mech like the Mauler or the old Meta Whale are what were dominant, you need speed if you are mid range, and things like the Battlemaster and Banshee are better than the Highlander IIC at that, and carry more speed.

6 LL Battlemaster has an XL 375
5 LPL Battlemaster has an XL 350
5 LPL Banshee has an XL 375
6 LL Banshee has an XL 400

All three of those I would prefer over the HGN-IIC because they can poke much safer than the HGN-IIC. I would also prefer the 732B or Executioner over the HGN-IIC if I needed a jumping mid range assault because it is just built better, it doesn't have to expose as much of itself to fire, and also has quicker pokes.

The problem is that while it can go faster than mechs like the Mauler or Dire Wolf, it ends up still not having enough speed to actually keep up with the faster asssaults which means it competes for the Area of Denial role, a role which it lacks the sustained firepower or massive alpha for.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 April 2016 - 09:35 AM.

[Escef]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 April 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

At the range you are bringing an assault for though,...

Brawling. We were talking about brawling.

I was not, in any way, shape, or form, laying claim to the Highlander IIC being the ultimate mech at all ranges and roles available to assaults. Nor even the best at any given range or role. Just saying that it isn't "horrible", and is, in fact, pretty decent at what it does so long as you play to it's strengths.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Escef, on 05 April 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

Brawling. We were talking about brawling.

I was not, in any way, shape, or form, laying claim to the Highlander IIC being the ultimate mech at all ranges and roles available to assaults. Nor even the best at any given range or role. Just saying that it isn't "horrible", and is, in fact, pretty decent at what it does so long as you play to it's strengths.

Not in that instance, MAL and DWF are not in any way used for brawling (though you could certainly build a MAL-BRAWL).

As for brawling, no, it really isn't that great either. The ON1-IIC-A can practically match its firepower, and do it in a smaller/faster package. The difference between the HGN-IIC and AS7-S is a couple of things. First it mounts all weapons in the torso meaning it has good convergence, where as the HGN-IIC has missiles split between the torso and an opposite arm on top of having worse spread from using Clan SRMs. Second it lacks the essential structure buffs. Third, its hitboxes just aren't the same as the AS7-S, the Atlas can spread damage far easier than the HGN-IIC.

I would take a brawling Mauler over the HGN-IIC, but maybe that's because I'm crazy.

[LT. HARDCASE]

I mastered all of these man, I love it as a weapons platform.

IIC = Gauss, 3x LPL, 21 DHS, TC3

IIC-A = 4x LPL, 29 DHS

IIC-B = UAC20, 3x SRM6+A, 2x ML

IIC-C = 2x UAC10, 2x LPL

Edited by LT. HARDCASE, 05 April 2016 - 10:04 AM.

[Roadkill]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 April 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

You are talking about sitting 100m back from the rest and that mechs don't block LOS for lock (but block shots I suppose otherwise you wouldn't mention blocking). There should be no hiding or sitting back 100m just because you are LRMs.

Incorrect. In any sort of constricted terrain, the ability to fire from the second rank is a force multiplier and is the true strength of LRMs.

The only time that isn't true is when you have effectively unlimited width with which to form your line. In that case, and in that case only, all Mechs should be on the front line.

How often is that actually true in MWO? (Hint: basically never.)

Quote

You are correct firing lines are often just everyone standing out in the open in some sort of line, where no one can afford to hide, otherwise it is humping some sort of terrain and playing the poke game.

Actually that's almost never the case, and that's precisely my point. If you don't have room for everyone to stand shoulder to shoulder, which is basically always, then having LRM Mechs in the second rank is a force multiplier.

Even when hill humping, but even more to the point when corner poking, it is better to have multiple ranks that can all fire at the same time. If everyone is using direct fire, that cannot happen. LRM boats allow you to have a 2nd (and 3rd) rank that can all fire at once.

I typically stand back from the corner when corner poking, because there's always some direct fire Mech that wants to push in front of me. Fine with me, because I can shoot over him when he's "in my way" as we both poke at the same time. But if I'm in the front rank where you seem to want me, only one of us can fire at a time. Furthermore, if we're both trying to be in the front rank we're going to block each other's movement and get someone killed.

I'm still going to take damage from return fire, and that's part of the principle. We all need to be absorbing enemy damage to spread it around. But it's the ability for all of us to fire at the same target that wins the encounter, and you can't do that if everyone is using direct fire.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Roadkill, on 05 April 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

How often is that actually true in MWO? (Hint: basically never.)

Whether you are able to hit the same target or not is a different story, but the goal of positioning is to make sure all mechs are hitting enemies, or at least the main body, so if your team is doing things right, it should happen constantly. Maybe you are right for PUGs, but for coordinated drops you are far from it. Your argument hinges on people not positioning themselves to be able to hit the enemy either in quick succession or simultaneously.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 April 2016 - 10:30 AM.