99 replies to this topic

[Stone Wall]

Lightfoot, on 07 April 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

I played in Microsoft's 1999 MechWarrior 3 tournament and any controller of the time was allowed and joystick was the suggested controller, but mouse and joysticks and keyboard was all allowed.

I had to drop out of that one because my teammate was from England and it was US only for the finals, but we got that far. He used a mouse and joystick, I used a Sidewinder joystick only.

I realize MWO is Mouse preferred, but many are using just a joystick so this has to be pointed out. Maybe in the future you would consider further controller options.

I don't think I have time right now to do a tourney anyway so no problem, but I would only use my Thrustmaster T-16000m or similar accuracy enabled joystick. Despite what mouse users say, some joysticks are just as accurate as a mouse and I do very well with it.

Lightfoot, weren't you also a chat mod for the MSN Gaming Zone?

Lightfoot, on 14 July 2016 - 03:02 PM, said:

Yes, they did. In 1999, the year MW3 came out. The grand prize was a Harley Davidson, their best.

MWO has very good joystick support now. I used a Logitech at first, but the Thrustmaster T-16000m I am using now is better, similar to the Sidewinder 2. Of course I zip-tied two coils of the return spring together as some suggested.

And there are actually more joystick games out now than circa 2000. MWO, Rise of Flight, Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen, Sturmovik, etc. Basically anything sim with multiple axii.

I believe a guy named Alfonze won it too.

I remember Microsoft really pimping out the Sidewinder Pro with MW3 and MW4. Back in the early days of MW3, you were looked down on for not using a joystick. I know I was because I always used mouse and keyboard.

Edited by Stone Wall, 29 July 2016 - 03:01 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Stone Wall, on 29 July 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

Lightfoot, weren't you also a chat mod for the MSN Gaming Zone?



I believe a guy named Alfonze won it too.

I remember Microsoft really pimping out the Sidewinder Pro with MW3 and MW4. Back in the early days of MW3, you were looked down on for not using a joystick. I know I was because I always used mouse and keyboard.

Not a Zone mod, no. The force feedback was truly awesome in MechWarrior 3 though. I can remember jump-jetting over a wall and one foot stepped on the wall on the way over and the force feedback recorded the impact on the right foot. It's things like that that bring the mechs to life.

I love using a joystick on River City and cutting the corners on the buildings to gain the advantage. The joystick gives you the edge there.

Edited by Lightfoot, 02 August 2016 - 02:35 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

the Sidewinder was the best !!!!for mW4 ...

Mwo is bad for Joystick other way ...only Joystick ,and MWO has longer TTK and no Pinpoint Aim problems

[Bill Lumbar]

This is what I am using for left hand and moving the legs. I use a Perixx gaming mouse, MX2000II for torso twist and aim. I have modded many flight sticks to make them IMO, more suitable for MWO. I do not like the straight up and down design that almost every Joystick maker goes with, so I cut them open, gut them, and remake them to this style. I have played MWO for years now, and as far as I am concerned, playing it with only a Keyboard and mouse is a huge handicap! All you die hard keyboard users can say whatever you want, but there is no advantage to using a keyboard instead of a decent flight stick for left hand and leg movement.

I was using a Logitech 3D Pro that I modded the very same way as this X45. Some flight sticks are easier to mod the others, and this X45 I gave $15 dollars for used, was no exception. There are no quick plugs for the wires, and they are all soldered onto a main board in the base of the controller. I had to de-solder them to get the wires up and out of the Joystick so I could mod the vertical stick and make it horizontal. I then had to solder them back in place and it took me maybe 3 hours start to finish and that includes painting the flight stick to give it a new look. Love this new X45 over the 3D pro I was using for the last year. The 3D pro gave me around 11 buttons on my left hand with the hud.

You have to keep the Throttle controller plugged into the Joystick or else you will get the crazy spinning to the right while in game. I also had to download the drivers for Windows 10 and I am sure you will have to download drivers in 7 or 8/8.1 as well. Since I don't use foot pedals right now, (I have made my own set) I have no use for the Throttle stick. I have thought about taking it apart also, gutting the mother board, and put it in the flight stick and solder the old school hookup wire so the throttle stick doesn't have to be plugged in.

This X45 gives me two hud's, and 22 buttons to program in total. I can access almost any setting in this game with this new controller, which is a huge advantage given I can keep my hand on the flight stick and still pilot my mech while accessing almost anything in game using it.

As an added bonus, with the X and Y axis, you get total control with throttle speed, and turning speed. You just can't beat it guys, say you want, keyboard use for a sim game is really old school, and lacks advantage over a good flight stick.

Edited by Bill Lumbar, 09 September 2016 - 06:25 AM.

[Zolaz]

Russ says you are happier using keyboard and mouse. Besides, programming and support for joysticks is too hard or something for PGI.

[Signal27]

The troll inside of me wonders how people would react if I proposed gamepad compatibility.

[Fireeagle]

totally agree mwo is the first mechgame i am not using my Joystick and why?
PGI did totally screwed the configuration!

[Lightfoot]

Still putting up great numbers with a Joystick. Give us Solaris PGI and we can test Joystick vs Mouse. Solaris would be great for MWO in any event. Not 24 player FFA, but 2 to 6 player FFA in a Solaris weight Class setting.

[meteorol]

Lightfoot, on 17 October 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:

Still putting up great numbers with a Joystick. Give us Solaris PGI and we can test Joystick vs Mouse. Solaris would be great for MWO in any event. Not 24 player FFA, but 2 to 6 player FFA in a Solaris weight Class setting.

sorry to be blunt, but judging from your leaderboard stats... no, you are not putting up great numbers. They are nowhere even close to what the players competing in the regional finals get with mouse/keyboard.

[Mawai]

The advantage of proper joystick support is in turning. Keyboard control for turning your mech chassis means that you either turn or you do not at a fixed rate. It is on/off. On the other hand, turning with a good joystick that is properly implemented allows for any turn rate up to the maximum which allows for much more accurate fire and target tracking of torso (and arms without lower actuators) based weapons while moving.

When combined with the torso twist capability of twisting the joystick while tilting it to turn at a controlled rate and the easy accessibility of multiple firing buttons. I'd have to agree that a properly implemented joystick control is probably the best way to play a mechwarrior game (I used a Sidewinder Pro for the previous mechwarrior games).

[Lightfoot]

meteorol, on 18 October 2016 - 04:56 AM, said:

sorry to be blunt, but judging from your leaderboard stats... no, you are not putting up great numbers. They are nowhere even close to what the players competing in the regional finals get with mouse/keyboard.

I usually win all my 1v1 duels when they occur in a PUG. Certainly if we are piloting the same mech and we are relatively undamaged. But I am just a casual player who enjoys playing the non-meta mechs (but I did crack the top 100 with a 2xGauss Sleipner!). Getting close to Tier 2. Haven't joined a player unit yet though so it's upper end of Tier 3, all in PUGs. With a joystick. And I am sure I am having more fun in MWO than I would be using a mouse. Solaris would be the test, PUGs just test the value of the Tier system.

I am pretty sure the World Championship will always be mouse-only due to technical considerations. That's why we need Solaris as an online arena of sorts. Probably not a priority though.

Edited by Lightfoot, 21 October 2016 - 08:48 AM.

[Ced Riggs]

Lightfoot, on 07 April 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

Despite what mouse users say, some joysticks are just as accurate as a mouse and I do very well with it.

The first half of your statement is objectively wrong. The second half of your statement is an anecdote. I understand that you'd like to see joysticks as allowed input devices, and that is fair. But trying to argue in favour of a device for it's precision, when that's the one thing no "aiming" device has over a mouse, is just inane.

[SuperFunkTron]

I think the one thing we need to make as a clear point from this is thread and discussion is: "Better joystick support is needed as soon as possible!"

There is no need to get into if mouse or joystick is better because I'm sure we can generally agree that viable joystick support should be made, especially for a game that has traditionally used it as one of its primary controls

[General Solo]

Mawai, on 18 October 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

The advantage of proper joystick support is in turning. Keyboard control for turning your mech chassis means that you either turn or you do not at a fixed rate. It is on/off. On the other hand, turning with a good joystick that is properly implemented allows for any turn rate up to the maximum which allows for much more accurate fire and target tracking of torso (and arms without lower actuators) based weapons while moving.

When combined with the torso twist capability of twisting the joystick while tilting it to turn at a controlled rate and the easy accessibility of multiple firing buttons. I'd have to agree that a properly implemented joystick control is probably the best way to play a mechwarrior game (I used a Sidewinder Pro for the previous mechwarrior games).

To get maximum turnage from your joystick you have to mash it to one side quickly.
Slower than pressing a button on a keyboard which has maximum turnage at all times.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 24 October 2016 - 02:13 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Ced Riggs, on 21 October 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

The first half of your statement is objectively wrong. The second half of your statement is an anecdote. I understand that you'd like to see joysticks as allowed input devices, and that is fair. But trying to argue in favour of a device for it's precision, when that's the one thing no "aiming" device has over a mouse, is just inane.

The Mouse is better for snap aiming, the joystick is better for steady aiming and matching turn-rate to aim. It's a toss-up since both are good aim advantages.

OZHomerOZ, on 24 October 2016 - 02:13 AM, said:

To get maximum turnage from your joystick you have to mash it to one side quickly.
Slower than pressing a button on a keyboard which has maximum turnage at all times.

But the joystick gives you turn-rate control, keyboard does not, however the mouse makes up for this with faster torso pointing. So a tie.

Anyway, I only pilot battlemechs with a joystick, like the pilot avatar in the game when your mech powers-up.

[Tarogato]

Lightfoot, on 17 October 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:

Still putting up great numbers with a Joystick. Give us Solaris PGI and we can test Joystick vs Mouse. Solaris would be great for MWO in any event. Not 24 player FFA, but 2 to 6 player FFA in a Solaris weight Class setting.

I can't believe you're still going on about this.

Well, if you want to talk about putting up great numbers... let's have a look. If we combine your Season 2, 3, and 4 stats,

- 44% of your matches are in mediums, 42% in heavies
- your average match score is near the bottom 20% of all players
- your KDR is near the bottom 40% of players
- your WLR is near the bottom 15% of players
- your activity (matches played) is within the top 20% of all players


If some of those numbers put you in the top 5%, even top 10% of all players... then maybe you would have yourself an argument. But as it stands, you have no credentials.

Quote

But the joystick gives you turn-rate control, keyboard does not, however the mouse makes up for this with faster torso pointing.

If you are turning your legs and shooting mechs at the same time, then your aim has to correct for four variables:

- your heading and speed
- your turn rate
- your enemy's heading and speed
- any unpredictable evasive actions from your enemy


If you want to make aiming easier, you eliminate some of those variables. Such as ...

- shooting a stationary target
- being completely stationary while shooting
- not turning your legs while shooting

The last of these is by far the easiest requirement. So it's simple: don't shoot while turning your legs. Just because you have analog control of your legs with a joystick and can finesse an infinitely variable turn, doesn't mean that it's not one more factor that can throw off your aim. If you're turning your legs, you have to correct for it in your aim, which just makes aiming harder. So don't do it. There really is no value to having analog control over your legs/turning.

So then you have to argue the merits of the joystick via aim, and not legwork. It must be compared directly with the mouse.

Quote

The Mouse is better for snap aiming, the joystick is better for steady aiming and matching turn-rate to aim. It's a toss-up since both are good aim advantages.

Except the mouse can aim steady as well. Very steady.

https://www.twitch.t..._spz/v/91396534

^ you can watch tens upon tens of hours of his steams on twitch if you like.

Or if you'd rather my example not be somebody who is literally considered by many to be the best player in the game, then maybe this guy instead:

https://www.twitch.t...ary/v/102124629



The mouse does not have inferior steady aiming capabilities to the joystick. And like you said, the joystick also can't snap. This is why nobody uses one. This game is best played with a mouse. Using a joystick is just hurting yourself, and your stats show it.

Have you ever experimented with different DPIs or even just the in-game sensitivity? Most competitive players run between 0.1 and 0.2 in-game sensitivity at between 800 and 1800 dpi. If I remember correctly, Proton actually runs absurdly low DPI (like 500) with a super high in-game sensitivity (0.8). I personally run 1000 dpi with 0.14 in game.

If you multiply your DPI by your in-game sensitivity, you can compare your settings to others this way. If that number is somewhere between 150 and 350, then you're probably around the range that most people play at (depending on screen resolution as well). I have to feel that you might just be using very poor mouse settings for this game if you're led to believe that the joystick aims better for you, because it simply will not if you have your mouse under control.

Edited by Tarogato, 25 November 2016 - 09:41 PM.

[Lightfoot]

@Tarogato

I am just a casual player. I log 10-20 matches per week (top 20%?, doubt that) so you must be looking at all time numbers? Which includes all those beta test runs I did in un-quirked Awesomes from 2013 on. I always try new builds, new mechs, some are no good. I don't play in a unit right now, just PUGs which pits you against equals so you should end up with a neutral result, right?

Anyway, I play MWO for fun and I am sure you get more fun from MWO with a joystick than a mouse. Just like you would not fly a plane with a mouse and keyboard. Joystick is a much higher level of simulation doing what PGI is trying to portray in MWO.

I could just take the top mechs and loadouts, but there is not much fun in repeating a winning solution, except you win a lot.

[ice trey]

Many players say that they used a Joystick in the Mechwarrior games, but I've felt nothing but frustration using them. I actually used to prefer using all keyboard to using a joystick at all, though MW3's arm-aiming drew me into using the Mouse+Key combo.

However, I do agree that this game should have been made with less emphasis on mah eSports, more on the simulationist perspective. Even in Mechwarrior 4, it was meant to be a Sim, not a Shooter. Somewhere in the decade between MW4 and MWO, the word "Sim" seems to have become a dirty word, and people are actually going around calling this an FPS... like Halflife and Doom... Both of which are favorites of mine, but calling the Mechwarrior series First Person Shooters is like calling tofu "meat". The fact that it's punitive to use a joystick when so many founders built some really impressive Battlemech cockpit rigs for this game is really quite disappointing, especially since using them pretty much guarantees them being relegated to Tier 5.

[KingCobra]

I cant tell you how fun it was to play MechWarrior2-Mechwarrior4 Mercenaries with my joysticks and my favorite one that never let me down in thousands of online battles my Logitech 3D Pro. its to bad MWO is not run on a analog joystick setup the Crytek =(Cry me a river) engine MWO is run on was originally designed just for digital inputs so it could be coded for PC or Xbox/ETC.

Link to us playing MechWarrior4 Mercenaries with joysticks

http://www.youtube.c...ss?feature=mhee

Edited by KingCobra, 19 December 2016 - 09:34 AM.

[Alexandros]

FuDawg, on 08 April 2016 - 09:46 PM, said:

You people are so spoiled I learned how to change my very first video adapter in my 8088 12Mhz system playing the original Mechwarrior. I bet y'all don't even know what an EGA card was

LONG LIVE VESA LOCAL BUS!