99 replies to this topic

[Mycrus]

Void Angel, on 16 June 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

No, it's not, and it never has been. Moving with a joystick has always been a secondary option, and unless you have both the game support, software, and hardware to make your joystick a zero-order controller for aiming, you are using an inferior option.

Mechwarrior games have always required a mouse. None of them have ever required a joystick.

Aiming is coded for zero order... mech movement is coded for first order... using an analog device for movement is the best option as it matches exactly how the game is coded... of course for aiming nothing beats a precision gaming mouse

[Void Angel]

That's entirely consistent with what I said.

[ice trey]

I have never used joysticks for MechWarrior games.

There are a few games that are really made for the joystick, usually flight sims, games from the Descent series... but I've never been a fan of joysticks, as I always find that the base just slip-slides all over the place and no amount of suction cup fixes the issue. Same with those little arcade sticks for fighting games. Even using analog sticks for console FPS feels incredibly clumsy to me after learning the good old ASWD

All of the MechWarrior games were well served by Keyboard and mouse. You can still get around by using a joystick if it's for turning and throttle, but if you are trying to use it for aiming, none of the MechWarrior games handled well with one. I don't think MW1 even supported one.

Hell, MechWarrior 3 was the first to bring Arm Swing into play, so now you have turning, torso twist, and free arm swinging that you had to contend with. No joystick did that justice.

While I agree that when it comes to Mechwarrior/Battletech games, immersion is key. Unfortunately, the minute that this game was announced as online only F2P - I knew that the death knell of immersion was a matter of time. The Joystick makes sense in a shaking cockpit, but at a desk playing a video game, it doesn't make sense to go out and buy a 100 dollar joystick (There are so few left on the market that it seems to be high-end or nothing), only to make yourself worse at this game, especially when you can't just go off to a single player campaign where story trumps competitiveness.

Edited by ice trey, 17 June 2016 - 06:10 PM.

[CTsai]

Lightfoot, on 04 June 2016 - 09:38 PM, said:

MechWarrior has always been a joystick game. That's why it should be allowed in MWO's tournaments.

If you have a good joystick the results are similar to a mouse and keyboard.

If MWO supported ranked 1v1 duels you could test that. MWO's tier system just lumps everything together, does not account for the mech used so it is more of a style analysis than a skill measure. Like if I take a certain popular mech (not an assault), I get frequent hat tricks and more, but I don't use that mech very often so those skills do not present themselves for me in the tier rating. Other more stat conscious players use only that mech for the wins and kill count. So you would need a dueling format like Solaris to actually rank players on skill and not style. For the purpose of PUGs, play style is probably the better factor to balance on though.

I guess the Challenges offer a fairly close skill measure though and I usually place in the top 600-500 and once broke into the top 300 with a joystick. But I am not the best player, I am just a casual player now.

https://youtu.be/L0MK7qz13bU?t=1m4s

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Splatshot, on 07 April 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

It only traditional if you used one.

I played since MW2, never used a joy stick, always thought they limited you, with lack of button and choices.

Here's the thing, it's not exactly Joystick exclusive. Even with a HOTAS, you tend to have the Keyboard for additional functionality.

But I can speak from experience, Mechwarrior 2, 3, and 4, all of which I've played with a joystick, as well as Keyboard/Mouse... and on all the old ones, I'll take a HOTAS setup ANY DAY, over trying to fiddle with Mouse/Keyboard controls.

Yes, arguably, you can get more accurate fire out of a mouse, I cannot deny that. But in games like Mech4, when i was outdueling mouse/keyboard players with a Joystick, I can't help but have warm fuzzies for the control setup.

The biggest problem in MWO, that's holding Joystick control back, is that because of the way they decided to handle Torso movement, and arm movement, it makes joystick's basically pointless. To get the most out of a HOTAS, you'd want to arm lock, and rely on torso/leg movement to acquire targets, but every mech's torso movement range is hugely different from one another. As an example, in an Atlas, I'd never be able to aim down to hit something below me if I had to arm lock. It makes brawling with a joystick almost impossible really.

The sad part is, Joystick control in MWO HAS gotten better from the old beta days, and I toy around with it on occasion, but I always come back to Mouse/Keyboard for MWO because well, I can just get more accurate shots that way... it never felt that way in any of the other Mechwarrior games... and that makes me just a little sad.

[Mycrus]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 17 June 2016 - 10:36 PM, said:

To get the most out of a HOTAS, you'd want to arm lock, and rely on torso/leg movement to acquire targets, but every mech's torso movement range is hugely different from one another.

what makes you think that... assume if you really went full HOTAS (not advisable for aiming)

left hand - throttle... typically will have a bajillion buttons & hats to handle other function
feet - pedals... control left & right... will typically have toe or heel buttons (which I use for important buttons)
right hand - joystick... aiming (torso twist), just like a mouse (again don't do it... it sucks...)

I use throttle + pedal + mouse...

[Icebergdx]

Lightfoot, on 04 June 2016 - 09:38 PM, said:

MechWarrior has always been a joystick game. That's why it should be allowed in MWO's tournaments.

If you have a good joystick the results are similar to a mouse and keyboard.

If MWO supported ranked 1v1 duels you could test that. MWO's tier system just lumps everything together, does not account for the mech used so it is more of a style analysis than a skill measure. Like if I take a certain popular mech (not an assault), I get frequent hat tricks and more, but I don't use that mech very often so those skills do not present themselves for me in the tier rating. Other more stat conscious players use only that mech for the wins and kill count. So you would need a dueling format like Solaris to actually rank players on skill and not style. For the purpose of PUGs, play style is probably the better factor to balance on though.

I guess the Challenges offer a fairly close skill measure though and I usually place in the top 600-500 and once broke into the top 300 with a joystick. But I am not the best player, I am just a casual player now.

Totally disagree. Been playing since Mechwarrior the Original, with a trackball (Gotta Love Logitech). Tried to go with a joystick on the original Mech2 and NetMech, but I was more comfortable with a trackball. The only downside is only having 3 buttons, so I have to do a lot of keyboard mapping.

[General Solo]

Why not put a joystick handle on a mouse.
Maybe a better version of this

[Shu Horus]

Actually it's a question of implementing the Joystick Support.


A well programmed use of the axis-movement of the joystick would make a joystick far superior to a Mouse/Keyboard Setup.

Why ?
Number of input axises available !

Mouse/Keyboard: 2 axis support on a Mouse....period. Everything else is Buttons.
Joystick (better said Dual Sticks or a HOTAS): up to 15 axises available (at least 4 even on most cheap single Sticks today). Fairly enough to assign pinpoint accuracy to every single movement option a Battlemech has. In addition to that a joystick axis has a functions, a mouse axis does not have: bidirectional and sustainable states.
Means a joystick can keep an axis-movement-input without moving it further, and other than a mouse a joystick can release an axis movement (while a Mouse just can implement a counter movement by moing in the opposite direction.)

Buttons only have two input options: number of toggles and time to hold.

A quality Joystick these days has an even better Resolution than any up to date gaming mice (there are Joysticks out there which have a 128 bit resolution on each axis - that means millions of steps readable on the axis movement range only, even most modern gaming mice have to move several meters over the mousemat to give a compareable amount of information input to the system or does anyone have a gaming mouse with a few 100k DPI resolution at hand ?).
It's not a question of the device it's more a question of use of it's capabilities.

From my current Hotas (a X52 Pro) I can call on up to 10 axis movements (actually 11 but one is quite bad to reach), having also the option to change Axis-sensivity on the fly (e.g. for sniping)) and 72 button-commands without releasing stick and throttle from my grip, no hovering over my keyboard to find a key, all function intutivly in reach of a finger. If I add the option to release the Stick to reach the switches on its base and the selector-wheel, the number of available button-commands increases to 3x90.
Why do I play with mouse an Keyboard ? Because the multiple axis-translation in MWO is crap. But I do use my pedals for independant and precise leg movement.

Why isn't a joystick only setup working with the current game state: Pinpoint accuracy is not correctly implemented for Joystick axises (maybe it's the resolution, the Axis-detention, i don't know what's the problem). If you could configure your Joystick an a precise manner to syncronise your hand-movement with your mech-movement, the precision and intuivity of the movement would be unparalleled. In all aspects: accelerating, turning, twisting, independent arm movement, head view, etc. could be done with precise directing of your hands and even feet (if you use pedals) which would all accumulate to a highly precision targeting. Not even starting to bring up the immersion into the game that would come with it, as you could actually get some sort of "feel" for your Battlemech.
But what is implemented: automatic control correction of all involved axises, derivated from the two-axis-movement of the mouse. You are not better with the mouse, because it is more precise (which it is NOT), you are better with the mouse because the game helps you more controlling the movement of your Mech (adjusting arm and torso movement based on the "leading point" you provide on the flat screen.)
Do not compare ones performance with out of the box Mouse control and out of the box joystick-control (especially not with a cheap 30-bucks-stick).

A joystick needs adaption to your very own movement and hand-eye-coordination. The same thing you do with your mouse sensivity to intuitivly control the pointer, just with some more movement-axises. If you get this right, you'll be amazed what a joystick control enables you to do.

With a mouse you are just pointing on the screen (you are actually just giving the Mech just some leading pointer), the whole movement control is done by the game, it's not you twisting, pitching your torso and rising and stretching out your arms, it's all the game's doing just aligning everything to where you are pointing with the mouse.
This actually seems to be the reason why aiming with a Joystick sucks so much in the game (which is actually the only reason that keeps me from using a stick). You have your freedom of movement for all the axises you configure, but this "autocorrection" based on the "leading point" given by your crosshair is still active, messing up all your other input.

There is a reason why all remote drones (not only the flying ones) are controlled with a joystick setup and not keyboard and mouse, because only this allows direct input from the operator to all movement axises and not input based on algorythms to apply.


I would throw my money at PGI if they would implement a good joystick support for MWO.
Just for getting the option back to fluently twist my torso to one side and look even more sideways with my headview to shoot with my stretched out arm right behind me at the target I am running from at full speed while manuvering around and jumping over obstacles at the same time...and all that by just moving my hands intuitivly (thats something you could perfectly do in MW3 and MW4 if you configured your joystick accordingly).
Oh you actually can configure your keyboard controls so you "could" do that. But can you ? No because you just du not have enough fingers to press all the neccessary buttons simultaniously, and even if you could it would be a clumsy control, because: it's just buttons.


Cheers,
Nuit


P.S.: and just for all the people crying "Tradition":
Look at your Cockpit when your Mech is fired up: What is your pilot guy using ?

[NeilDeGaussTyson]

I have been a mechwarrior fan for a long time, having happily bought and enjoyed every mechwarrior game since MW2, I can't help but feel that PGI should have joystick support...

Mechs were designed to be piloted, and the feel of a well calibrated joystick is far beyond even the best mouse. Every match played in MWO starts with a JOYSTICK wiggle by the virtual pilot. When my systems come online, I don't see the pilot centering his mouse on some pad.

Traditionally...in the 31st century...a mech is piloted by a stick.

[DAYLEET]

Is it a lore thing?

A joystick only make sense for something that moves on all axis and suffer from gforces and needs to apply direction continualy. A gamepad would be better than a single joystick for aiming while moving on a 2d axis, like they have on tanks. Not that i can fight my way out of a wet paper bag with a gamepad on console but thats because i never use it.

I think that setting a fixed mouse on an arm rest like the F16 F35 have for their small joystick would be much better than either pad or stick and ofcourse it would be set with a throttle/hotas + pedals.

[DJ Mitchell]

ice trey, on 17 June 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

All of the MechWarrior games were well served by Keyboard and mouse. You can still get around by using a joystick if it's for turning and throttle, but if you are trying to use it for aiming, none of the MechWarrior games handled well with one. I don't think MW1 even supported one.

Hell, MechWarrior 3 was the first to bring Arm Swing into play, so now you have turning, torso twist, and free arm swinging that you had to contend with. No joystick did that justice.

Actually that´s a fairytale.

Depending on your joystick, it was possible to change mech movement direction, turn torso, pull out the arm, aim, toggle weapon groups, open zoom and fire arm all mounted weapons in one fluent motion with one hand. Leaving your other hand free for all other functions like, toggling speed, flushing coolant, typing commands, change weaponfire mode and so on. Joysticks which supported this costed 40-60 bucks back then.

Sidewinder 3D Pro comes to my mind, that thing was already capable of all of this. And that's a JS from the 90's.

MW3 - MW4 supported this kind of play and function with a joystick very well right from the start.

The reason was simple joysticks were a common gaming input tool back then, since a lot of "simulation" games needed,recommended or supported one. X-Wing, Tie-Fighter, Comanche, Privateer, Decent, Earthsiege, Mechwarrior and so on...

Also simulation games back then with a mechanical mouse with (ball) which also gathered all dust it could find while rolling around...against a joystick...not really.

Around 2000 when optical mice became a thing and MW4 came out in 2002 - "okay deal", at long ranges opticals were better at short ranges joystick was better.

When it comes to MW:O the game is optimised for Mouse + Keyboard, depending on how good the movement of your mechs arms can be controlled with the top hat of your joystick, a joystick cannot only a viable option, but also an unfair advantage since you could turn your mechs torso in one direction and your arms in the other simultaneously which means spreading dmg while returning fire, don´t think you can do that with a mouse...

[lpmagic]

The joystick was what people in MW3 graduated from, to, keyboard/mouse, when they came of age and started playing more seriously.....typically when they made that merge into comp gaming, not the other way around.....

[Metus regem]

...

I wish I had the time, energy and know-how to get this working for MWO, might actually make the game more interesting...

[Redacted]

As it sits right now, she is gathering dust in the garage....

Edited by draiocht, 07 July 2016 - 04:45 AM.
image of Steel Battalion controller hotlink swapped to an advertisement.

[Thorn Hallis]

Microsoft hosted a tournament for a Microprose game?

[Mazzyplz]

the way i used to run mwo was with steering wheel pedals and mouse+keyboard.

i used the pedals to accelerate and brake initially but then i switched pedals to turn left and right.

so all my left hand was doing was throttle and all the other buttons (map, target button, leaderboard, lock arms, etc...)

i would have used that still but plugging in peripherals to mwo more often than not meant you would be stuck spinning in circles during a match. keyboard + mouse it is.

[ShadowFire]

I loved MW4... It was designed from the ground up to use a level 1 controller (Joystick). Piloting my mech with my M$ Sidewinder Pro I could quickly and easily nail any target out to my max range at any time, jumping or not. (Gee I miss real jumping mechs... buts that's another topic altogether)

But remember level 1 game controllers deal with velocity and vectors and level 1 games inherently can be easily down converted to level 0 controllers (i.e. x, y axis position oriented controller made for mice). So MW4 with a mouse worked just as well if not better for torso twist. We had a almost level playing field.

Now fast forwarded to MWO with its Cry-engine 3 game engine, a pure Level 0 game. Now level 0 game code does not convert up to level 1 easily but with a lot of work MWO finally put something together that works (somewhat poorly).

On top of the conversion issue, MWO went out of its way to program a little "slop" into the controller to simulation a mech's natural inertia when moving. Well that bit of slop influences just a little positional moment on the mouse controller puts a lot of velocity change to the level 1 controllers (sticks)... which really sucks for the stick drivers.

For us stick drivers (not using special 3rd party conversion code) holding a laser on a moving target is really, really, difficult across broken terrain (which influences the slop code) and even just dampening the wobble down after coming to rest takes a lot of time... Basically, if we take snap shots we tend to splash the laser's duration all over the place (wobble fire) and if we wait till our cross-hairs come to rest (controlled fire) we get shot in the face by a quick mouse directed snapshot.

All in all, MWO or most every native 0 level game engine game, you will have a greatly unbalanced playing field. MWO is playable with a joystick but it is a great handicap most players decidedly avoid.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

In MW4 Joystick (love my MS Sidewinder Pres. 2 with 3 Axis, and many Buttons)working very fine and better as Mouse and using for ten Years in League Fights from MBO and EBTL ), here not Joystick Support ,the Game optimized of Mouse ....the aim better with Mouse

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 02 September 2016 - 02:04 AM.

[Harper Steel]

lol I played crescent hawks inception on an apple2 monochrome monitor and the board game was called battledroids

I have used a stick and throttle combo for 3 years now and do just fine

[Lightfoot]

Thorn Hallis, on 05 July 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

Microsoft hosted a tournament for a Microprose game?

Yes, they did. In 1999, the year MW3 came out. The grand prize was a Harley Davidson, their best.

MWO has very good joystick support now. I used a Logitech at first, but the Thrustmaster T-16000m I am using now is better, similar to the Sidewinder 2. Of course I zip-tied two coils of the return spring together as some suggested.

And there are actually more joystick games out now than circa 2000. MWO, Rise of Flight, Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen, Sturmovik, etc. Basically anything sim with multiple axii.