127 replies to this topic

[DovisKhan]

RangerGee412, on 10 April 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

Ppcs are good against assaults and heavys, but if the target has decent speed it can be more difficulthan to hit them. When they were fast they were the go to weapon. That's all anyone ever used.

The heat sucks, but all I need is a split second to break cover and send the 10 or 20 dmg downrange vs the half second 1 second of exposure to shoot my lasers off. I don't use them as a main weapon just as a prebrawl damage dealer except in the Warhawks or my adder.

Atually ppcs are much more effective against lights, since unlike with lasers, you get a lot of damage to a single component and lights can't take more than a few of these


Since ppcs are my favorite weapon, I tried pulling them off in multiple mechs, BJ-3 doing the best job at it, with 30% heat reduction you can fire ERPPCs almost without overheating and the 50% velocity makes for very good trades vs all lasers in maps like polar.

Edited by DovisKhan, 10 April 2016 - 10:11 PM.

[LordNothing]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 10 April 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

Then again, LBX10 x 4 Mauler or DWF is all kinds of LOL. You should try it.

seconded. just put 4 on my mauler for the event. mostly to spread damage and increase the occurance of kmdds. even if you didnt get the kill, you would pepper it with so much damage that no other sane player with a laser vomit build can top you by coring it out. turned out the build was an excelent brawler, very little heat, great ammo economy. my plan kind of backfired because of the large number of long range camp maps that got played, and the build is only good to about half the "optimal" range.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Just to make sure I had at least a little experience with these, I used ERPPCs for the first time today.

Average damage across my first 5 games: 435.... and a few kills. So definately not carrying anyone, but hardly horrible.

I'm sure if I didn't use a joke build, and got some practice using them that I'd get the same performance out of them as lasers.

My conclusion, they're fine when used properly....people just want an easy mode weapon they can use in every situation.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 10 April 2016 - 10:29 PM.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Now that I think about it they compare best with the AC10.

Heat: 3 vs 10/15
Range 450 vs 540/810
Damage 10 vs 10/10
Speed 950 vs 1100/1200
Tons 12+ vs 7
Slots 7 vs 3

They're high heat, low weight, low space, faster projectile, ammo less...... AC10s

In other words, they're the perfect example of the trade offs between energy and ballistic weapons.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 10 April 2016 - 10:54 PM.

[thehiddenedge]

The Atlas Overlord, on 10 April 2016 - 10:53 PM, said:

Now that I think about it they compare best with the AC10.

Heat: 3 vs 10/15
Range 450 vs 540/810
Damage 10 vs 10/10
Speed 950 vs 1100/1200
Tons 12+ vs 7
Slots 7 vs 3

They're high heat, low weight, low space, faster projectile, ammo less...... AC10s

In other words, they're the perfect example of the trade offs between energy and ballistic weapons.

that clips on all sorts of terrain...

but yeah pretty much.

compared to LPL's though...

Edited by thehiddenedge, 10 April 2016 - 11:49 PM.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

We just need a nice and proper laser nerf - hitscan weapons should never have the best damage profile anyway

[MoonUnitBeta]

kapusta11, on 10 April 2016 - 08:19 AM, said:

Or just increase their speed and remove ridiculous 50% quirks.

Mechs with those quirks aren't the ones that can also equip a gauss rifle with it.

[LordKnightFandragon]

The Atlas Overlord, on 10 April 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:

Just to make sure I had at least a little experience with these, I used ERPPCs for the first time today.

Average damage across my first 5 games: 435.... and a few kills. So definately not carrying anyone, but hardly horrible.

I'm sure if I didn't use a joke build, and got some practice using them that I'd get the same performance out of them as lasers.

My conclusion, they're fine when used properly....people just want an easy mode weapon they can use in every situation.

No, people want PPCs to be punchy, hot, long range, fast moving weapons. Right now, they are hot as ****, slow as hell and damage is not worth it. Their collision with terrain is terrible and the hit reg on them sucks. No, they are terrible weapons. You do 435 dmg with a PPC, take a LPL, you would easily get like 200 more, since the thing wouldnt miss, wouldnt lol hit an invisible wall, will actually register, will actually hit...

My best games have been in my 4x LPL WArhawk. My 4x CERPPC Warhawk, its best game came in Clan's first PTS, I got like 600 damage, my next best is like 640 or so. Best LPL game? Like 800 dmg and 4 kills or so.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 April 2016 - 11:43 PM, said:

No, people want PPCs to be punchy, hot, long range, fast moving weapons. Right now, they are hot as ****, slow as hell and damage is not worth it. Their collision with terrain is terrible and the hit reg on them sucks. No, they are terrible weapons. You do 435 dmg with a PPC, take a LPL, you would easily get like 200 more, since the thing wouldnt miss, wouldnt lol hit an invisible wall, will actually register, will actually hit...

My best games have been in my 4x LPL WArhawk. My 4x CERPPC Warhawk, its best game came in Clan's first PTS, I got like 600 damage, my next best is like 640 or so. Best LPL game? Like 800 dmg and 4 kills or so.

1) As I stated already, they seem to be designed to be the energy equivalent of AC10's. You seem to want them to be the energy equivalent of gauss rifles. Guess what? PGI tried that already, everyone used them together...and it was stupid.

2) The only thing that you not being able to get performance out of them tells me is that you're trying to use them for situations they're not supposed to be used in.

3) I use LPL on almost all of my atlas's. They work great....when I'm brawling. The fact that you can use a clan LPL to snipe says more about how those things need their ranges brought down than it does about the PPC pair.

PS. don't quote all the videos... it just clogs the thread.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 10 April 2016 - 11:56 PM.

[kapusta11]

MoonUnitBeta, on 10 April 2016 - 11:31 PM, said:

Mechs with those quirks aren't the ones that can also equip a gauss rifle with it.

Are they?

MAD-3R

WHM-6R

FIREBRAND

For some reason, I hardly see any of those in game. Maybe it's becasue Gauss + 2 (ER)PPC loadout is not as OP as people claim it to be, even with super quirks?

Edited by kapusta11, 11 April 2016 - 12:13 AM.

[DovisKhan]

kapusta11, on 10 April 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

Are they?

MAD-3R

WHM-6R

For some reason, I hardly see any of those in game. Maybe it's becasue Gauss + 2 (ER)PPC loadout is not as OP as people claim it to be, even with super quirks?

Exactly, at current state 2XPPC is comparable in the end match sheet as 4 ML and those cost 10 less tons and are less heat demanding...


Only mechs that get some mileage out of ppcs are those with energy heat reduction + ppc heat reduction.

Only then ppcs are at least somewhat comparable to lasers

[LordKnightFandragon]

The Atlas Overlord, on 10 April 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

1) As I stated already, they seem to be designed to be the energy equivalent of AC10's. You seem to want them to be the energy equivalent of gauss rifles. Guess what? PGI tried that already, everyone used them together...and it was stupid.

2) The only thing that you not being able to get performance out of them tells me is that you're trying to use them for situations they're not supposed to be used in.

3) I use LPL on almost all of my atlas's. They work great....when I'm brawling. The fact that you can use a clan LPL to snipe says more about how those things need their ranges brought down than it does about the PPC pair.

PS. don't quote all the videos... it just clogs the thread.

I dont use my LPL to snipe, I use them like a machinegun and pretty much shoot the **** out of stuff. I tried using PPCs at distance, the velocity is trollzy bad, and trying to hit a light, ******* forget it...

[MeiSooHaityu]

Hit registration with PPCs might be the biggest issue besides velocity. I think heat is a big one too, but I can deal with more heat for 10pt FLD damage, IF I knew the shots would register properly.

Example: This is a recent by Sean Lang with a dual ERPPC Nova. Skip to 3:15m mark.

If that was me, I'd be sad panda

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 11 April 2016 - 03:51 AM.

[occusoj]

MoonUnitBeta, on 10 April 2016 - 11:31 PM, said:

Mechs with those quirks aren't the ones that can also equip a gauss rifle with it.

It got just 40% speed but this CPLT-K2 is another mech that can equip a GR with 2xPPC.
With current "balance" its terrible and not used in matches at all. Havent seen one in ages and stopped running mine long ago.
No way some decent buffs to PPCs (or nerfs to certain lasers) would make this build OP.

[DerMaulwurf]

kapusta11, on 10 April 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

Are they?

MAD-3R

WHM-6R

FIREBRAND

For some reason, I hardly see any of those in game. Maybe it's becasue Gauss + 2 (ER)PPC loadout is not as OP as people claim it to be, even with super quirks?

I agree. Running fast PPCs with a Gauss Rifle has been an option for months by now. If it was a strong one, you would see it more often.

The comparison with the AC/10 is actually fitting, since both weapons are marginal in power and rarely seen in matches. Even on the mentioned heavily quirked variants you still see lasers more often than not.

I am quite baffled how people can continue to make nice theoretical arguments, when the current state of the game easily disproves their argument. You can make deductions on a weapon's power from how often it is actually used. And even in T1 I see more lurms than PPCs, although the former is supposed to be trash tier.

[Saltychipmunk]

I use the firebrand from time to time , but i would never ever use both ppc and gauss at the same time. the two weapons have radically different aiming and firing styles.

They dont mesh well.

It is easier to just go dual gauss firebrand with some back up medium lasers.

ppc on firebrand are kind of meh because you want 3+ ppcs but only have 2 high mount points. and 2x ppc on a heavy mech is extremely weak sauce.

Its a sad mech really. boating on it kind of demands running xl engines , but the low mounts and broad torso effectively make doing so a death sentence. so either you go dual ppc and do little at range and use the torso mounts for heat sinks or medium lasers or you go gauss and use the torso mounts for ammo or medium lasers.

Edited by Saltychipmunk, 11 April 2016 - 05:31 AM.

[PyckenZot]

Will Hawker, on 10 April 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

Since I got hold of the Warhammer and extensively tested it I've begun to understand the frustration others share with PPCs.

Why bother with them when you can take lasers that do just as much damage and sometimes more but don't cost as much heat or space or guess work to hit targets. Large Pulse Lasers do 11 damage and cost 7 heat and it pulses to the target for more direct application.

Pinpoint vs beam duration

Will Hawker, on 10 April 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

The only advantage the PPC and ER PPC have over it is the range, but that it's negated when you consider it does 10 damage costs 10 or 15 heat, has to travel to the target like a ballistic and also costs an additional slot. There's a definite imbalance there and it's quite concerting, because I want to use PPCs on mechs that are known to use them and in specific positions.

True, and that is why PPCs are restricted to heavily buffed mechs. But on those mechs, they are the definite choice over LPL. As per location of weaponry, that is an issue plenty of mechs have. Adapt and adjust your playstyle.

Will Hawker, on 10 April 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

Not only do Warhammers use two, they also use them on the arms which are underslung and lower than their other weapon points so in fact the main characteristic of the Warhammer, not only has inadequate stated weapons but they are also in the least useful position.

Did anyone oblige you to keep the PPCs in the arms? I never took my WHM out with the PPCs mounted there. ;-)

Will Hawker, on 10 April 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

There has to be some payoff for using them, range means nothing when it's mitigated by several circumstances and it's not even the best ranged weapon because of the gauss. They either need their heat drastically reduced or lasers have their heat increased or they need to do more damage than lasers to compensate for their heat expenditure.

They could use a tad more speed. Anything else and one can start the next "nerf PPC-meta" threads. Keep in mind that they are pinpoint sniper weapons with unlimited ammunition,...

[Richard Hazen]

PyckenZot, on 11 April 2016 - 05:38 AM, said:

They could use a tad more speed. Anything else and one can start the next "nerf PPC-meta" threads. Keep in mind that they are pinpoint sniper weapons with unlimited ammunition,...

Pin point? Are you ignoring the giant orb that deals splash damage? If anything is a pin point sniper weapon it's a ER Large Laser.

[PyckenZot]

Will Hawker, on 11 April 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

Pin point? Are you ignoring the giant orb that deals splash damage? If anything is a pin point sniper weapon it's a ER Large Laser.

IS PPC/ER-PPC does 10 points of damage on a single component.
Clan ER-PPC does 10 points of damage on a single component PLUS 2.5 points of damage on up to 2 adjacent components.

Seen that I was talking IS-PPC, I am indeed, ignoring the giant visual aspect and just referring to how it works in game.

And did you just call a 1.25 seconds burn time laser pin-point?

Edited by PyckenZot, 11 April 2016 - 06:32 AM.

[Richard Hazen]

PyckenZot, on 11 April 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

IS PPC/ER-PPC does 10 points of damage on a single component.
Clan ER-PPC does 10 points of damage on a single component PLUS 2.5 points of damage on up to 2 adjacent components.

Seen that I was talking IS-PPC, I am indeed, ignoring the giant visual aspect and just referring to how it works in game.

And did you just call a 1.25 seconds burn time laser pin-point?

It hits the spot you want it to hit if you're precise enough all of it will go to that single component. It's so much easier to use ERLL as a sniping weapon than PPC imo, you don't have to worry about terrain or invisible walls cause you can always move the laser (and still get damage) and it applies straight onto the target rather than having to guess like ballistics. Considering the difficulty between the two then the PPC should have a bigger pay off for actually hitting.

Due to the heat and travel etc you can probably fire several ERLLs and apply double the amount of damage for half the amount of heat of a PPC, plus the ERLL doesn't have a min range. If it's going to be a snipe weapon it has to be better than a general combat weapon otherwise you may as well do it all with the general combat weapon which is where we find ourselves at the moment.

Edited by Will Hawker, 11 April 2016 - 06:40 AM.