1016 replies to this topic

[FLG 01]

The original designs clearly and unmistakenly shows Marauder heritage:




The arms the biggest difference, the torso got a little bigger with additional bulges, which is to be expected in a Mech much heavier than its progenitor, and it lacks the torso mounted cannon - but other than that...

[TheArisen]

FLG 01, on 25 January 2017 - 06:26 PM, said:

The original designs clearly and unmistakenly shows Marauder heritage:




The arms the biggest difference, the torso got a little bigger with additional bulges, which is to be expected in a Mech much heavier than its progenitor, and it lacks the torso mounted cannon - but other than that...

Wow... The side by side really drives it home. The Nightstar is basically a IS Marauder IIc that's not the Marauder II. Kinda sorta like a Marauder III

[FLG 01]

TheArisen, on 25 January 2017 - 09:13 PM, said:

Wow... The side by side really drives it home. The Nightstar is basically a IS Marauder IIc that's not the Marauder II. Kinda sorta like a Marauder III

It is also quite obvious in the configuration, imo. I can imagine how they started 25 years ago designing the Nightstar:
First they remembered that the old Marauder fluff spoke of it as the first of a new generation, so they thought of an assault Mech/ big brother. Then you upgrade the torso cannon to something much bigger, a Gauss rifle, and - realizing you still have a lot of tonnage - you swap the GR and the PPCs, upgrade the ML to MPL and the PPC to ER-PPC... and there you are: the Nightstar.
It is a straight line of evolution, at least it appears like that. In its base characteristics the Marauder and the Nightstar are remarkably similar, even if the playstyle ends up being very different.

That is one reason I like the Nightstar. It is an evolution of one of my favoruites that is not boring. I mean the Marauder II is nice, but this one literally is bloated Marauder which was oversinked to allow continuous fire (which, btw. works much better in TT than it would in MWO, I am afraid).

[TheArisen]

FLG 01, on 26 January 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:

It is also quite obvious in the configuration, imo. I can imagine how they started 25 years ago designing the Nightstar:
First they remembered that the old Marauder fluff spoke of it as the first of a new generation, so they thought of an assault Mech/ big brother. Then you upgrade the torso cannon to something much bigger, a Gauss rifle, and - realizing you still have a lot of tonnage - you swap the GR and the PPCs, upgrade the ML to MPL and the PPC to ER-PPC... and there you are: the Nightstar.
It is a straight line of evolution, at least it appears like that. In its base characteristics the Marauder and the Nightstar are remarkably similar, even if the playstyle ends up being very different.

That is one reason I like the Nightstar. It is an evolution of one of my favoruites that is not boring. I mean the Marauder II is nice, but this one literally is bloated Marauder which was oversinked to allow continuous fire (which, btw. works much better in TT than it would in MWO, I am afraid).

Yeah it's kind of surprising to think a mech that's basically an upgraded version of such a famous mech wouldn't have been more popular. I do agree that the Nightstar would need some work in the mechlab but with the way MWO is that's just the norm.

The Dragonfire and Maelstrom are also evolved versions of the Marauder but both look very different and the Nightstar looks so similar... hmmm strange.

[TheArisen]

New artwork from Shinypants!
https://mwomercs.com...-a-mech-design/
His Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ablackwe/

Edited by TheArisen, 29 January 2017 - 10:24 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Night Star: the really, really fat Shadow Cat.

[TheArisen]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 January 2017 - 10:11 PM, said:

Night Star: the really, really fat Shadow Cat.

I think I'm gonna go with super buff Marauder.

[Y E O N N E]

TheArisen, on 28 January 2017 - 10:20 PM, said:

I think I'm gonna go with super buff Marauder.

But that's not what the above picture looks like.

[TheArisen]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 January 2017 - 10:27 PM, said:

But that's not what the above picture looks like.

Are you sure? Look at the torso shape. The Shadowcat has a pretty boxy torso compared to the flatter slopped Marauder.

[Y E O N N E]

TheArisen, on 28 January 2017 - 10:38 PM, said:

Are you sure? Look at the torso shape. The Shadowcat has a pretty boxy torso compared to the flatter slopped Marauder.

I am absolutely certain it looks way more like this:



...just scaled up.

[TheArisen]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 January 2017 - 10:41 PM, said:

I am absolutely certain it looks way more like this:



...just scaled up.

I guess it's just how you look at it. To me the Scat has boxy torsos that are pretty vertical where the Marauder's torso slopes back like on Shiny's Nightstar.

[Y E O N N E]

TheArisen, on 28 January 2017 - 10:48 PM, said:

I guess it's just how you look at it. To me the Scat has boxy torsos that are pretty vertical where the Marauder's torso slopes back like on Shiny's Nightstar.

The details might reveal the Marauder lineage, but the silhouette is way more SHC than MAD. 'Mechs are identified in combat based on the silhouette, not the minutiae. Were the NSR and SHC to be the same size, you would confuse the two constantly from just a glance, but you would never incorrectly ID an NSR as a MAD.

[TheArisen]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 January 2017 - 11:29 PM, said:

The details might reveal the Marauder lineage, but the silhouette is way more SHC than MAD. 'Mechs are identified in combat based on the silhouette, not the minutiae. Were the NSR and SHC to be the same size, you would confuse the two constantly from just a glance, but you would never incorrectly ID an NSR as a MAD.

Fair enough but I'd bet at 95t size it might get confused with the MADiiC without the dorsal gun.

[FLG 01]

Common, don't be so quick to agree.
Even without the enormous size difference it would be hard to confuse the silhouette of the Nightstar and that of the Shadow Cat. We are not dealing with minutiae; we are dealing with basic and drastic differences in proportions and shapes.

• The Shadow Cat's torso is broad, short, and boxy without protruding bulges or fins. The Nightstar's torso is slim, long, and round, and it has those bulges on top and on the bottom.
  
• The lower legs of the Shadow Cat are joined to the sides of the upper legs and protrude to the back of the Mech, whereas the lower legs of the Nightstar neither protrude nor are they attached to the sides of the upper legs.
  
• The upper arms of the Nightstar are far longer, and both weapon barrels extend far beyond the arms and actuators, dominating the silhouette. The Shadow Cat's arms are not only asymmetrical as opposed to the symmetrical arms of the Nightstar, and sometimes missing a hand actuator (creating a totally different shape), its weapon barrels are relatively short. Do I need to point out again that the arms of one are boxy and squat, while the others are round and elongated?

It reminds me a bit of my time in the air force. Of course, an untrained civilian might confuse a F-15 and a F-14 based on superficial similarities (two engines, shoulder wing, bubble canopy etc.), but you would be hard pressed finding an air force soldier, much less a pilot, who would do so.

Thus I have my doubts that a trained Mechwarrior would be capable of confusing a squat and boxy 45 ton Mech with a slim and round Mech more than double its mass.

Edited by FLG 01, 29 January 2017 - 08:05 AM.

[TheArisen]

FLG 01, on 29 January 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

Common, don't be so quick to agree.
Even without the enormous size difference it would be hard to confuse the silhouette of the Nightstar and that of the Shadow Cat. We are not dealing with minutiae; we are dealing with basic and drastic differences in proportions and shapes.

• The Shadow Cat's torso is broad, short, and boxy without protruding bulges or fins. The Nightstar's torso is slim, long, and round, and it has those bulges on top and on the bottom.
  
• The lower legs of the Shadow Cat are joined to the sides of the upper legs and protrude to the back of the Mech, whereas the lower legs of the Nightstar neither protrude nor are they attached to the sides of the upper legs.
  
• The upper arms of the Nightstar are far longer, and both weapon barrels extend far beyond the arms and actuators, dominating the silhouette. The Shadow Cat's arms are not only asymmetrical as opposed to the symmetrical arms of the Nightstar, and sometimes missing a hand actuator (creating a totally different shape), its weapon barrels are relatively short. Do I need to point out again that the arms of one are boxy and squat, while the others are round and elongated?

It reminds me a bit of my time in the air force. Of course, an untrained civilian might confuse a F-15 and a F-14 based on superficial similarities (two engines, shoulder wing, bubble canopy etc.), but you would be hard pressed finding an air force soldier, much less a pilot, who would do so.

Thus I have my doubts that a trained Mechwarrior would be capable of confusing a squat and boxy 45 ton Mech with a slim and round Mech more than double its mass.

Well they were saying if both mechs were the same size the silhouette would be similar which really is a pretty general thing to say. I didn't agree Shiny's or anyone else's Nightstar looks like a Scat just that broad statement that if they were the same size and you were looking at them from a distance you might confuse them. It seems silly to me but I guess the EBJ is also a fat Scat in their eyes... If they were the same size and far away.

[FLG 01]

I can understand the comparison to the Cauldron Born a bit better, because at least it has the elonged round torso.
Recognition capability is based on expertise and interest. At a certain level, even a flight sim enthusiast cannot confuse F-15 and F-14. Obviously I am no MechWarrior, but with a little background in the air force and in archaeology, and thus having a little training in shape recognition in two rather different fields (), my eyes cannot overlook the huge difference between Shadow Cat and Nightstar.

... at least when talking about the miniatures. Yes, some artwork here makes the Nightstar more boxy and perhaps creates more similarities to other Mechs. And I am sure MWO would eliminate some of the round shapes, too.
Also, I do not know how computers in the 31st century work (who would?). Perhaps the same computer that had trouble identifying the Mad Cat (switching between Marauder and Catapult) would also confuse Shadow Cat and Nightstar (though I hope not).

In the end, it matters little. Even if the Nightstar ends up like a bigger Shadow Cat, I would pilot it.

[Shinypants]

Lots of very serious discussion about a drawing that is only a front view and is hard to extrapolate how the other views might look. I'll admit I didnt do a whole lot of planning when drawing it. I was trying to have a little fun and see if I could come up with something that looked like it might be cool.

[Y E O N N E]

It's the fists on the straight-out arms, man...

[FLG 01]

Shinypants, on 29 January 2017 - 05:45 PM, said:

Lots of very serious discussion about a drawing that is only a front view and is hard to extrapolate how the other views might look. I'll admit I didnt do a whole lot of planning when drawing it. I was trying to have a little fun and see if I could come up with something that looked like it might be cool.

Don't worry I wasn't talking about your art in particular, nor would I judge it (and certainly I would not judge it negatively since it does look nice!)
It is perfectly in line with the BattleTech evolution of art to reimagine the classics. In fact it is good that the Nightstar can be interpreted in so many ways, because there is a lot to choose from.

[Shinypants]

FLG 01, on 29 January 2017 - 06:10 PM, said:

Don't worry I wasn't talking about your art in particular, nor would I judge it (and certainly I would not judge it negatively since it does look nice!)
It is perfectly in line with the BattleTech evolution of art to reimagine the classics. In fact it is good that the Nightstar can be interpreted in so many ways, because there is a lot to choose from.

No offense taken Just an interesting observation. I agree with a lot of the points made. I think to a degree its hard to come up with newer designs that fit within the universe. Looking back i feel like it has a lot in common with the EBJ... Anyway...