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Imbalance During Certain Times

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#41 Tarogato

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 09:07 AM

View PostLordSkyKnight, on 12 April 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:



All of those people you don't know could still be tier 1. Since, you know, your actual skill level has next to nothing to do with your tier. Matchmaker thinks it's working perfectly when it puts 12 DivA pilots on one team and 12 terribads who just happen to have 10k games played and have been playing in their same LRM atlai since beta on the other.


Exactly. And hopefully we can show that this is exactly what's happening, because I suspect it is.

#42 1453 R

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 09:08 AM

View PostGigliowanananacom, on 12 April 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:


You're open to your opinion, if you are done with your tantrum, have a seat please.

I would also like to point out, that you could not have any insight to this issue, because tier 4 is not placed with 1-3.



Are you going to stop complaining about matchmaking? And/or stop accusing Piranha of Zinga-level shenanery because some Timber Wolf driver in the late-night solo queue indulged in a bit of bad touch?

If you can't be assed to be even remotely realistic in your appraisal of the issue, such as it is, then why should I exert myself to try and beat sense into your headmeats? It's never worked before; people are convinced Piranha is being actively malicious/grossly incompetent with their matchmaking mostly because they're flat unable to comprehend reality. And because blaming the matchmaker for their losses instead of their own averageness is just such a great scapegoat, innit?

(COUNTER) EDIT:: Ahhhh, tier shaming. Yep, classy. "You're too scrub to understand this game. GTFO."

Y'know, mebbe I'll work up that post after all. If you're going to resort to tier-shaming to try and propagate your toxic conspiracy-mongering, actual logic may be required here after all.

Edited by 1453 R, 12 April 2016 - 09:10 AM.


#43 MechWarrior319348

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 09:12 AM

View Post1453 R, on 12 April 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:



Are you going to stop complaining about matchmaking? And/or stop accusing Piranha of Zinga-level shenanery because some Timber Wolf driver in the late-night solo queue indulged in a bit of bad touch?

If you can't be assed to be even remotely realistic in your appraisal of the issue, such as it is, then why should I exert myself to try and beat sense into your headmeats? It's never worked before; people are convinced Piranha is being actively malicious/grossly incompetent with their matchmaking mostly because they're flat unable to comprehend reality. And because blaming the matchmaker for their losses instead of their own averageness is just such a great scapegoat, innit?

(COUNTER) EDIT:: Ahhhh, tier shaming. Yep, classy. "You're too scrub to understand this game. GTFO."

Y'know, mebbe I'll work up that post after all. If you're going to resort to tier-shaming to try and propagate your toxic conspiracy-mongering, actual logic may be required here after all.

shhhh shhhhh. Theres no need for that. Why dont you go have a drink of water and come back to the keyboard after you have calmed down? My intention was not to insult you through "tiers," I try to be as welcoming as possible to players of all tiers. That comment was rather intended to remove your credibility from the conversation. The statement is self explanatory, you cant have knowledge of the issue if you are not present during the circumstances that we are discussing.

Edited by Gigliowanananacom, 12 April 2016 - 09:26 AM.


#44 Afuldan McKronik

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 09:14 AM

Just FYI, Matchmaker WILL open the tier gate to let matches start. Ever have those really long waits before a match? Thats the MM about to loosen the tier regulation to allow up to tier 2 to play with tier 5.

Edit; if that doesnt let the matchmaker start, all tier restrictions are removed and it will put tier 5 first timers with tier 1 overlords.

Edited by Afuldan McKronik, 12 April 2016 - 09:15 AM.


#45 Afuldan McKronik

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 09:17 AM

View Post1453 R, on 12 April 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:



Are you going to stop complaining about matchmaking? And/or stop accusing Piranha of Zinga-level shenanery because some Timber Wolf driver in the late-night solo queue indulged in a bit of bad touch?

If you can't be assed to be even remotely realistic in your appraisal of the issue, such as it is, then why should I exert myself to try and beat sense into your headmeats? It's never worked before; people are convinced Piranha is being actively malicious/grossly incompetent with their matchmaking mostly because they're flat unable to comprehend reality. And because blaming the matchmaker for their losses instead of their own averageness is just such a great scapegoat, innit?

(COUNTER) EDIT:: Ahhhh, tier shaming. Yep, classy. "You're too scrub to understand this game. GTFO."

Y'know, mebbe I'll work up that post after all. If you're going to resort to tier-shaming to try and propagate your toxic conspiracy-mongering, actual logic may be required here after all.


Some people don't get it. The interwebz and all that.

#46 Khereg

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 09:44 AM

Matchmaking is generally better than it's ever been, but I agree tier creep is probably happening and it's going to degrade the matchmaker over time if not corrected.

The heart of the "Tier creep" issue is because of the way PSR is adjusted after each match, there is a bias to increase, even once you hit Tier 1 b/c you have plenty of matches where there's a mix of talent and you can be expected to do "better than average" even if your true skill level isn't in the top X% of the player base, which maintains your upwards PSR trajectory (I've probably benefited from this myself...I'm max Tier 1, but there's no way I'm ready to try out for EmP, SJR, etc.).

Everything flows from that. If I were PGI, I'd be watching the percentage of active players in each tier and plotting that over time. If I saw the percentage of Tier 1 players creeping upwards and getting pretty lopsided (as I suspect it is), I'd do a couple of things:

1) I'd rethink the scoring mechanism that establishes PSR and try to fix it so that it better reflects relative player skill and doesn't maintain an upwards bias. This is easier said than done and, as the long term solution, could take a while to sort out. The new PSR score should be devised in a way that there is no maximum the way there is today. In the shorter term, I might do a couple of things to compensate for the drift:

2) Periodically (weekly?) adjust the PSR Tier cutoff values to keep an appropriate fraction of the active player base in each Tier. In my happy little world, it might look something like:

Tier 5: 10%
Tier 4: 22.5%
Tier 3: 35%
Tier 2: 22.5%
Tier 1: 10%

I'd probably continue to do this even if a new, better PSR scoring system were found.

3) Tighten the matchmaker to +/1 1 tier from it's current +/- 2 tier value. This might make wait times excessive, however and may not help very much. In fact it ould hurt more than it helps..

If the bias continued, eventually more than 10% of the active player base could have the "max PSR" rating and you couldn't adjust the PSR tier cutoff any longer to compensate. If we're anywhere close to this, the method for calculating PSR scores needs emergency surgery and can't wait for the long term solution. In that case, I'd take a number that generally reflects player influence on matches and use the average of their last 500-ish matches to establish a score that has no maximum. We could use Match Score for this today. It isn't perfect, but combined with #2, above, it would keep tiers allocated across similar numbers of players and would be a relative skill measure across the active player base at any given time instead of an attempt at an absolute "skill value" that can become lopsided in its player count.

#47 dario03

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 10:21 AM

View Postdario03, on 12 April 2016 - 02:22 AM, said:


IIRC being in a tier does not mean you are equal to everybody else in that tier. We all still have a hidden player score (kind of like Elo) which is also used to make the matches. Its just now you won't see somebody thats a 500 (T5) on a team to balance out the guy that is a 2500 (T1). (numbers are just a example)

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 12 April 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:


I don't think that is correct, but regardless, its not hard to cap at the top of T1 - my progress bar has been capped since the first day tiers came out and has never moved. I would say i am 'above average' but still not in the same league as the best players.



Well like I said I'm going off memory here so I could be wrong, but I'm almost positive that in a town hall Russ said something like "yes you still have a numerical rating, no I won't show it to you." Also when talking about skill rating differences they use numbers, again pretty sure I recall him doing that in town halls but here it is written after PSR
http://mwomercs.com/...-making-in-mwo/

And yeah it is to easy to fully fill that bar but that still might not mean everybody at T1m is actually rated equal. Could be for example T1 is 2000-2500 and T1m is 2501-3000. Which would explain why it is possible to never have the bar drop below max.

View PostAfuldan McKronik, on 12 April 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

Just FYI, Matchmaker WILL open the tier gate to let matches start. Ever have those really long waits before a match? Thats the MM about to loosen the tier regulation to allow up to tier 2 to play with tier 5.

Edit; if that doesnt let the matchmaker start, all tier restrictions are removed and it will put tier 5 first timers with tier 1 overlords.

Is that group and solo or just group?
And more importantly. Source?

Edited by dario03, 12 April 2016 - 10:23 AM.


#48 XxXAbsolutZeroXxX

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 10:32 AM

View PostGigliowanananacom, on 12 April 2016 - 02:49 AM, said:

For all we know, the people at "the head" could purposefully be cutting corners as much as possible so they can make as much money as possible. You rarely see anyone with a PGI logo helping anyone with an issue in the forums. The devs have town halls, where they sit down, relax, drink a few beers, and ponder about how successful they are. For all you know, they are having conversations off to the side about how "profitable" it is to feed off gamers who are willing to pay for something that they "want" to enjoy. I myself have put in a lot of money, because I want this game to succeed. But there seems to be a gap somewhere between quality and profit. I understand they need to feed their families, but there is a bar here that you can go over.


Sometimes I see 3 players with the same unit tag on the same team & wonder if people actively sync drop in the pug queue. Sync dropping might also explain how tier 1 players end up on one team and terribads on the other. Never attribute to malice that which might be explained by undefined user behavior.

#49 1453 R

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 10:40 AM

REASONS WHY MATCHMAKING WILL NEVER BE THE WAY YOU WANT IT TO BE IN MWO.

1.) ”Skill-Based” Matchmaking is Impossible
I see an awful lot of “well if they had a SKILL-BASED matchmaker instead of all this crappy ELO or PSR junk, then things would be better!”

Okay Mr. Armchair Dev, riddle me this: how do you programmatically determine a player’s ‘skill’? Remember! The matchmaking system is a bunch of code run on servers – you can’t put a line of code that says “match good players with good players and bad ones with other bad ones” in your system and expect it to work. You’re an armchair programmer now – what parameters do you give the system?

‘Skill’, in MWO, is most often/best determined with intangibles such as good twisting, good positional awareness and maneuvering, proper teamplay, and other things you can’t really program a machine or a digital system to recognize. There’s a very distinct difference between ‘Good’ damage that leads to quick enemy kills and victorious matches and ‘Bad’ damage that just inflates your match score – but to a machine, four hundred points of ‘Good’ damage that efficiently eliminated three enemy units looks no different than four hundred points of ‘Bad’ damage that accomplished not much of jack monkey squat.

You can try and program behavior triggers into the system, like Piranha did for the match reward table, but those are iffy and usually very easy for living, thinking, adapting human players to game. Once they understand the system they’ll know how to milk it, and once they start milking it they’re displaying the ‘Skill’ of being able to milk the system, not the ‘Skill’ of winning games in MWO.

2.) ”I HATE STOMPS! Every game should end in 12-8 or better; why can’t Piranha get their stupid matchmaker to stop giving us stomps?!?!?!!!1!!11oneoneexclamationpoint!1!”

One, stop emphasizing. One, or possibly two, exclamation points is sufficient.

Two: ‘stomps’ don’t happen as often as you think they do. A 12-3 fight could be a 12-3 fight with the 12 side being a bunch of ‘mechs with less than forty percent integrity left, out of ammo and on their last legs, to the point where one fresh Timber Wolf could knock over all nine remaining enemies. They just managed to out-attrit you for that fight, and most of them are probably sweating buckets and for once in the history of mankind actually mean it when they ‘GG’ at the end of the match – because to them it was a hell of a thing.

Three: even when you have a legit stomp, there are a million reasons beyond matchmaking why it could’ve occurred. Mechwarrior Online is a game where one mistake made by one player can swing the balance of the entire match. The fundamental structure and nature of this game encourages snowballing – your Whale driver takes a nasty CT shot early in the match and has to play gingerly from there out, his ginger play lessens the firepower your side can throw out, and that in turn makes it easier for the enemy side to get more of those nasty CT shots in. In a sense, that one, single whack to the Whale’s CT was the shot that won the game, because it affected everything else that came afterwards.

Alternatively, maybe some of your guys are drunk-streaming, or testing new builds on unmastered ‘Mechs, or their girlfriend is trying the game on their account, or they have a cat on their head, or are for some other reason not performing to the level the matchmaker expected them to. The matchmaker knows the average performance of any given player; it is not privy to that player’s specific, at-that-instant condition and thus the likelihood of that player living up to the matchmaker’s programmatic expectations of them.

3.) ”Piranha is the DEVIL! They could fix this game if they wanted to! What the hell are they spending two hundred thousand bucks on a tournament for when the game is broke and they’re always complaining about being understaffed?! PIRATES! BRIGANDS! SABOTEURS! SCALLYWAGS!

Calm down. Breathe. Find the little switch under your ear and flip it the other way. All right. Your brain’s on now? Excellent.

For one, a lot of that tournament money is probably a tax write-off somewhere as advertising funds. They’re not shelling out as much as you think they are. For two, two hundred thousand dollars doesn’t go very far, insofar as business staffing is concerned. Game development is a highly skilled position, with a lot of competition for the individuals available. Even assuming Piranha could find someone with the skills they needed – which is not a given, as their eternal quest for more texture artists proves – hiring that person, complete with salary and benefits and other expenses, might well run them in the region of sixty or seventy grand a year, if not north of that. Judging by my own wage, which is itself a skill position of sorts if in a very different industry.

A core systems engineer guy, one of the guts-of-the-game programmers that can work in the game engine itself and do heavy-duty updates? Those guys are rare, expensive, and usually get their pick of jobs. Two hundred thousand is not enough to buy one of those guys for more than a year or two, and nobody’s going to take a job they’re going to lose in a year or two. Hiring people is a constant, ongoing expense that will, over time, pretty heavily exceed 200k. A tournament is cheap next to a programmer.

4.) ”I suck and I don’t want to admit it! The matchmaker keeps rubbing my nose in the fact that I suck, so I hate it and want Piranha to spend time, effort, and development resources Fixing Matchmaking™ for the seventh time so I never have to feel like I suck!”

You don’t always get what you want. I want an Information Warfare system that actually qualifies as Information Warfare. They tried a couple basic ideas on it once, then shelved it forever. You’ve had your way already – half a dozen times. There is nothing more Piranha can do with their matchmaking system, not without a much larger playerbase than they’ve got. Which, by the way, is generally one of the goals of a large, publicized tournament – attract new players.

5.) Shut up, 1453! You’re Tier 4, you suck so bad I’m surprised you can find your keyboard! I’m better than you at MWO so you should let me slander Piranha and incite needless forum nerdrage because off-hours MWO matchmaking isn’t perfect!”

I’m ‘T4’ because my aim is Not Good, I don’t play very often anymore due to work and also other games that warrant a slice of my interest as well, and because I have no clucks to give where it comes to Meta Dominance and/or advancing in tier. I play what I want when I want to play it, and that includes Warhawks with mixed armaments, Shadow Cats, experimental Mad Doges, PPC-armed medium ‘Mechs, and very occasional Krabs with six AC/2s and fourteen tons of ammunition.

None of that indicates that my brain is broken. A realistic appreciation for the trials faced by the matchmaking system, and a working, functional layman’s understanding of the overall nature of game development (or indeed project development of most any sort), does not require madd skillz. Especially given the opinion that many people in this very thread hold concerning PSR – namely, that it’s an XP bar more than a skill-measuring mechanic, and that one’s PSR rating has very little to do with one’s actual skill.

Can’t have it both ways, eh man?

Anything else? Or did I cover it?

#50 MechWarrior319348

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 10:49 AM

Well both sides should be presented.

If that is how you want your side of the argument to be viewed then ok.

#51 MTier Slayed Up

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 10:54 AM

It's probably already been said...But Tiers do not wholly represent skill. Sure, Tier 4 is reserved to new players and Tier 3 is pretty average but tier 1 and 2 just tells me folks play alot, and that's it.

#52 MechWarrior319348

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 11:29 AM

Quote

2.) ”I HATE STOMPS! Every game should end in 12-8 or better; why can’t Piranha get their stupid matchmaker to stop giving us stomps?!?!?!!!1!!11oneoneexclamationpoint!1!”


I should also point out, that there are times when these bad matches are consecutive. I have lost up to 15 times in a row before(yes put your ramblings about how its my fault here). Coincidence is real, yes. But often times it is a precursor to a real issue. We just have to be keen enough to pick out these occasions.

#53 SplashDown

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 11:34 AM

NEWS for you the MM has been putting T1 players in with T5 players ever since the last major patch.

#54 MechWarrior319348

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 11:53 AM

I believe there are enough of us talking about this for them to really go back and take another look.That is all.

#55 dario03

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 12:16 PM

View PostSplashDown, on 12 April 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

NEWS for you the MM has been putting T1 players in with T5 players ever since the last major patch.


Source?

#56 Deathlike

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 01:18 PM

The "math" to calculate PSR suggests that most of the players will increase, regardless of how much of an actual impact they make. Since the formula rarely decreases your PSR (unless you intentionally derp with 0 damage games - though that is magically mitigated on a win), people that grind a lot will inevitably hit Tier 1, but not be of any sort of real "T1 quality" (like EmP/comp level). Even I would categorize myself in that sample size. My XP bar is filled to the max anyways.

Your problems get emphasized more during "NA off hours" due to lower population.

#57 1453 R

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 01:18 PM

View PostGigliowanananacom, on 12 April 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

I believe there are enough of us talking about this for them to really go back and take another look.That is all.


They've "gone back and taken another look" half a dozen times now.

When is it okay for Piranha to stop, stop, stop, stopstopstopstopSTOPSTOPSTOOOOP, wasting development resources on rebuilding the matchmaker AGAIN, and instead devote them to something that will actually help the game?

#58 Deathlike

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 01:26 PM

View Post1453 R, on 12 April 2016 - 01:18 PM, said:

They've "gone back and taken another look" half a dozen times now.

When is it okay for Piranha to stop, stop, stop, stopstopstopstopSTOPSTOPSTOOOOP, wasting development resources on rebuilding the matchmaker AGAIN, and instead devote them to something that will actually help the game?


In the case of PGI regarding the MM, there's always some flaw in the design or the application of how things should work, and thus usually causing a lot of bad behavior... there is good reason to fix the flaw or we'll be spiraling into a new MM every so often because of this.

#59 1453 R

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 01:46 PM

If there is a flaw, I'm reasonably certain the four hundred and seventeen million "The Matchmaker is BROKEN BEYOND COMPREHENSION!!!" threads that get started in this sinkhole every day will have twigged Piranha to that fact. Giggy's venomous rumormongering is bad enough; I am sick unto death of all these nitwits around here who figure that all Piranha needs to do is have a couple of guys spend an afternoon building a Skill-Based Matchmaker™ and everything will be right with the world.

It's rank stupidity and blatant misinformation. Trust me, people - if someone had come up with a way to sort out Skill™ in a game, rank players accurately according to it, and produce tight, 100% skill-based matches quickly and efficiently, that person would not be working for Piranha Games. he would be selling that matchmaking algorithm to every single PvP game in the history of ever and making a staggering fortune, because that is not a piece of code. That is a sorcerous incantation invoking the very highest of arcane magic, and you do not do schlump work if you're a wizard.

#60 Johnny Z

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 02:14 PM

View Post1453 R, on 12 April 2016 - 01:18 PM, said:



They've "gone back and taken another look" half a dozen times now.

When is it okay for Piranha to stop, stop, stop, stopstopstopstopSTOPSTOPSTOOOOP, wasting development resources on rebuilding the matchmaker AGAIN, and instead devote them to something that will actually help the game?


This is right along with maybe 2 or 3 other on the mark replies in this entire topic.

Anyone who knows anything knows that this game has the best match maker ever in a game up till now. It includes many excellent features meant to protect newbies from getting harassed as well as including win/loss, dethreating, rerolls, player experience, and on top of all that, even player scores, which are themselves quite detailed.

Basically this is a troll topic... :)

In fact I don't even see a way this match maker can be improved and I'm sure other games will be trying to copy it, buy it or steal it...... If there is another way it can be improved, I havnt seen it on these forums.

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 April 2016 - 02:30 PM.






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