122 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Reddit cross post: https://www.reddit.c..._timeline_skip/

So, thinking about this last night...here were some of the ideas I came up with for bringing in future tech.

Resolving Structure quirks

Buff all IS base structure on mechs:

Lights, Mediums, and Heavies would get a 40% structure buff to base value. While Assaults would get a 35% structure buff to base values.

All structure quirks removed from all mechs after base values adjusted.

To offset the increase in IS TTK, Clan ST speed loss penalty is removed, but retains 20% heat penalty.

Agility quirks

Leave the skill tree as it stands, but take all things removed from the skill tree and add them to the base values for each mech in a given weight class proportionally. This leaves the gap between elited and unelited mechs as smaller than before, but restores the mobility mechs need.

All agility quirks would be removed once base values are adjusted, and some edge cases (MLX, CMD, etc.) could possibly have adjustments to offset any perceived performance deficits.

Laser normalization

IS

SL: adjust heat to 2, increase damage to 4, increase range to 160m

SPL: adjust heat to 2, increase damage to 5, increase range to 140m

ERSL: Heat 3, damage 4, range 195m

SXPL: heat 3 damage 6 range 160m, duration 0.65 seconds

ML: adjust heat to 3, adjust range to 300m

MPL: adjust heat to 3, adjust range to 260m

ERML: heat 4, damage 5, range 360m

MXPL: heat 6, damage 7, range 300m, duration 0.75 seconds

LL: heat 7, damage 9, increase range to 495m

LPL: heat 7, damage 11, increase range to 400m, increase duration to 0.8 seconds

ERLL: heat 8, damage 9, range 675m, duration 1.2 sec

LXPL: heat 10, damage 13, range 495m, duration 1.12 sec

All range quirks removed after normalization

Clans

Remove fall off nerf to all medium and small class lasers

ERSL: adjust range to 225m

SPL: adjust range to 180m, adjust duration to 0.65

HSL: heat 3, damage 6, range 180m, duration 0.8

ERML: no changes

MPL: adjust duration to 0.75 seconds

HML: heat 8, damage 10, range 270m, duration 1.0

LPL: no changes

ERLL: reduce duration to 1.4 sec

HLL: heat 13, damage 15, range 450m, duration 1.3 seconds

Ballistics

All ammo counts increased to 200 damage per ton, STD gauss will be 195 damage per ton, Heavy Gauss will be 198 damage per ton

IS

No adjustments to STD ACs

UAC2 and UAC5 will be single projectile

UAC10 will be 2 projectiles

UAC20 will be 3 projectiles

LBX spread tightened across the board

UAC ranges will be within 10% of their clan counterparts across the board

Clans

UAC2 is unchanged

UAC5 has projectile count decreased to 1 projectile for 5 damage

UAC10 is reduced to 2 projectiles for 10 damage

UAC20 is reduced to 3 projectiles for 20 damage

LBX spread tightened across the board

Eliminate STD Clan ACs, or reduce the projectiles to single projectile weapons

Gauss

IS

STD Gauss

Cooldown reduced to 4.25

Heavy Gauss

18 tons - 11 crits

25 damage - 1 projectile

3 heat

360m range, triple fall off

Cooldown 4.75 seconds with 0.75 second charge

Projectile velocity 1200 m/s

Light Gauss

12 tons - 5 crit slots

10 damage

900m effective range with double fall off

Cooldown 3 seconds with 0.75 sec charge

Projectile velocity 2400 m/s

Clans

HAG20

10 tons - 6 crits

20 damage over burst of 3 projectiles

720m effective range double fall off

Cooldown 4.5 seconds

No charge time

Velocity 2400 m/s

Heat 4

10 bursts per ton of ammo

HAG30

13 Tons - 8 crit slots

30 damage over burst of 4 projectiles

540m effective range double fall off

Cooldown 4.75 seconds

No charge time

Velocity 2000 m/s

Heat 6

7 bursts per ton of ammo

HAG40

16 tons - 10 crits

40 damage over burst of 5 projectiles

360m effective range double fall off

No charge time

Velocity 1600 m/s

Heat 8

5 bursts per ton of ammo

Streaks

IS

Streak SRM4: 8 damage, range 270m, cooldown 4 sec

Streak SRM6: 12 damage, range 270m, cooldown 4.5 sec

ATM

Clans

ATM3: 1.5T - 2 crit, heat 2, damage 3/6/9 (ER/STD/HE), range STD 270m, ER 800m, HE 450m, cooldown 2.5 sec

ATM6: 3.5T - 3 crit, heat 4, damage 6/12/18 (ER/STD/HE), range STD 270m, ER 800m, HE 450m, cooldown 3.5 sec

ATM9: 5T - 4 crit, heat 6, damage 9/18/27 (ER/STD/HE), range STD 270m, ER 800m, HE 450m, cooldown 4.5 sec

ATM12: 7T - 5 crit, heat 8, damage 12/24/26 (ER/STD/HE), range STD 270m, ER 800m, HE 450m, cooldown 5.5 sec

Velocity for ATM STD is 300 m/s, ER is 160 m/s, HE is 200 m/s for 200m then accelerate to 350 m/s past 200m

MRM

IS

MRM10: 3T - 2 crit, heat 4, damage 10, range 450m

MRM20: 7T - 3 crit, heat 6, damage 20, range 450m

MRM30: 10T - 5 crit, heat 10, damage 30, range 450m

MRM40: 12T - 7 crit, heat 12, damage 40, range 450m

Velocity for MRMs would be 300 m/s to 200m then accelerate to 500 m/s from 200m to max range

PPCs

IS

Snubnose PPC: heat 10, 6T - 2 crits, no min range, 10 damage, range 450m, velocity 950 m/s

Light PPC: heat 5, 3T - 2 crits, no min range, 5 damage, range 540m, velocity 1400 m/s

PPC: heat 9, damage 10, min range 90m, range 540m, 1200 m/s

ERPPC: heat 14, damage 10, no min range, range 810m, velocity 1600 m/s

Heavy PPC: heat 15, 10T - 4 crits, damage 15, no min range, range 540m, velocity 1500 m/s

Clans

ERPPC: heat 15, damage 15 (PP), no min range, range 810m, velocity 1400 m/s

LFE

10 crits like CXL, 75% weight of STD engine, no heat penalties on loss of ST

Compact Heat Sink

IS

1.5T - 1 crit, +1.1 to max heat cap, +0.21 cooling per second (internal engine DHS remain unchanged)

Thoughts on other factors not mentioned above

The idea with a timeline skip is not to invalidate anything, but provide options based on need and trade off, I think the above situation does that nicely

AC projectile velocity: I think that reducing projectile counts for CUACs and making IS UACs match is a good way to balance the situation there. As far as projectile velocity for STD ACs is concerned, they may need adjusting once the new tech comes in.

Introducing new tech, by default, will more closely balance the game out because the new tech was intended to compete with clans.

I had some interesting ideas for MRMs/ATMs as to how to not make SRMs obsolete when they arrive...I hope that the idea gains enough traction that PGI would consider such a thing.

As for any other questions, comments, or thoughts, feel free to discuss, as I hope this at least shows the people who were concerned about jumping the timeline forward that a reasonable suggestion can be achieved that does not negate the purpose of the older tech.

Edited by Gyrok, 12 April 2016 - 04:45 PM.

[Snowbluff]

HAGs sound stupidly good. o.o

[Gyrok]

Snowbluff, on 12 April 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

HAGs sound stupidly good. o.o

It is the burst of projectiles that are the drawback...picture a UAC20, but gauss...you get the idea.

[Snowbluff]

Gyrok, on 12 April 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

It is the burst of projectiles that are the drawback...picture a UAC20, but gauss...you get the idea.

Pfft, I find UAC20 plenty usable as is. It's like strapping 4 UAC5 to your mech. Imagine me with huge velocity buff and 2 free tons for more ammo. >

No double tap, though.

[FupDup]

These values actually sound...somewhat salvageable. I have nitpicks all over the place, but I don't see very many things that instantly stick out as being terrible. My biggest concern is the lack of buffs for MGs and AC/2s. That, and you copy-pasted the font as too tiny. Right click and use "paste as plain text" next time...

I'm pretty sure that these weren't written by you.


Well, okay, I did remember a few really bad things. Namely, you forgot the Binary Laser Cannon, Magshot, and AP Gauss Rifle.

Edited by FupDup, 12 April 2016 - 05:53 PM.

[Gyrok]

Snowbluff, on 12 April 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

No double tap, though.

Precisely...you are more likely to land some of your shot...but no opportunity for follow up. Also, depending on projectile spreads, it is possible not all 20 would hit a single component.

FupDup, on 12 April 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

These values actually sound...somewhat salvageable. I have nitpicks all over the place, but I don't see very many things that instantly stick out as being terrible. My biggest concern is the lack of buffs for MGs and AC/2s. That, and you copy-pasted the font as too tiny. Right click and use "paste as plain text" next time...

I'm pretty sure that these weren't written by you.


Well, okay, I did remember a few really bad things. Namely, you forgot the Binary Laser Cannon, Magshot, and AP Gauss Rifles.

I did not address MGs and AC2s specifically because the overall focus was on the entire set of new tech.

MGs should end up at about 1.0 DPS, and a MG array should end up somewhere around 2.0 DPS...

What I would suggest for AC2s, PGI would never do...but...we should at least get a cooldown module out of the deal.

[Snowbluff]

Gyrok, on 12 April 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

Precisely...you are more likely to land some of your shot...but no opportunity for follow up. Also, depending on projectile spreads, it is possible not all 20 would hit a single component.

It sounds like it's strictly better than the double tapped UAC10. No chance to jam, and better velocity.

[Gyrok]

Snowbluff, on 12 April 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

It sounds like it's strictly better than the double tapped UAC10. No chance to jam, and better velocity.

It does still explode on crit...and UAC10s are only 2 projectiles per burst with a tight pattern under this proposal.

Edited by Gyrok, 12 April 2016 - 04:46 PM.

[1453 R]

Strict values are the domain of PGI. Been toying with various high-level concepts for FutureTech weapons introductions myself. Realistically, the big one is going to be getting ATMs in - so many FutureTech Clan machines make use of ATM launchers, but Piranha is incapable/unwilling when it comes to ammo switching.

My notion for ATMs was, quite simply, damage dropoff. It's a mechanic that's been in the game since inception, and a three-stage damage dropoff system would keep the flavor of ATMs without requiring ammo switching. Yes, that means that technically all ATM ammo is simultaneously long, medium, and short-range ammo at once...but as I recall, TT ATMs were actually quite bad, and did not compete at all with cLRMs, cSSRMs, or especially regular cSRMs. Having big heavy bulky launchers that fire less missiles than LRMs, weigh more/be fatter than SSRMs, and which require locks, but can cover all ranges of a fight effectively*, may be worth investigating.

I've got ideas for most everything else too, but haven't put the rest of the document together. Nevertheless...methinks you might be overdoing it with the heavy lasers, especially the heavy medium laser. A one-ton, ten-damage laser is probably the entire reason Russ is so skittish about heavy lasers, increased heat tax/critslot count or no. There would need to be additional penalties/risks in using heavy lasers, which I was working on getting into in my own version. A big component of it is how the whole power draw system shakes out, but even without it, Ghost Heat for heavy lasers would have to be very punishing.

On top of the whole self-ECM effect that lore inflicts and stuff.

[Gyrok]

1453 R, on 12 April 2016 - 04:51 PM, said:

Strict values are the domain of PGI. Been toying with various high-level concepts for FutureTech weapons introductions myself. Realistically, the big one is going to be getting ATMs in - so many FutureTech Clan machines make use of ATM launchers, but Piranha is incapable/unwilling when it comes to ammo switching.

My notion for ATMs was, quite simply, damage dropoff. It's a mechanic that's been in the game since inception, and a three-stage damage dropoff system would keep the flavor of ATMs without requiring ammo switching. Yes, that means that technically all ATM ammo is simultaneously long, medium, and short-range ammo at once...but as I recall, TT ATMs were actually quite bad, and did not compete at all with cLRMs, cSSRMs, or especially regular cSRMs. Having big heavy bulky launchers that fire less missiles than LRMs, weigh more/be fatter than SSRMs, and which require locks, but can cover all ranges of a fight effectively*, may be worth investigating.

I've got ideas for most everything else too, but haven't put the rest of the document together. Nevertheless...methinks you might be overdoing it with the heavy lasers, especially the heavy medium laser. A one-ton, ten-damage laser is probably the entire reason Russ is so skittish about heavy lasers, increased heat tax/critslot count or no. There would need to be additional penalties/risks in using heavy lasers, which I was working on getting into in my own version. A big component of it is how the whole power draw system shakes out, but even without it, Ghost Heat for heavy lasers would have to be very punishing.

On top of the whole self-ECM effect that lore inflicts and stuff.

Well, if you note, the range is absurdly short, and the heat is crazy high. Essentially, you get to fire a PPC that only does 10 damage to 270m and starts falling off, with no minimum range. If we consider how asinine that is...I really doubt it would be *that* problematic.

You are also overlooking lots of buffs to IS weapons, particularly lasers, that would offset having all the quirks removed. It would also mean that if you got into range of HMLs, the IS would have a plethora of tech2 grade toys to rip you to pieces with...and they have structure quirks, while you do not.

I did not write this as an authoritative, "this is how it must be done...or else..." sort of thing. I wrote it primarily as a "look what we could do to balance the game with new tech if we did something like this..." sort of thing.

While I propose that none of that is set in stone...hopefully it at least gets some ideas going about how to go about doing this, and even gives them ideas to implement things.

As for ATMs, that was really wishful thinking on ammo switching. The other idea I had about ATMs was to just scrap everything but HE all together and make them the clan equivalent of MRMs.

[Moldur]

It is great that you put down all these numbers, but unless you easily state or organize it in a way the layman can understand, this is a topic that only the nitiest of pickers can find accessible. Yeah, maybe I'm just a ******* idiot, but if 90% of the audience is ******* idiots, then well...

[Gyrok]

Moldur, on 12 April 2016 - 05:10 PM, said:

It is great that you put down all these numbers, but unless you easily state or organize it in a way the layman can understand, this is a topic that only the nitiest of pickers can find accessible. Yeah, maybe I'm just a ******* idiot, but if 90% of the audience is ******* idiots, then well...

Things like cooldown, damage, tonnage, crit slots, and range are too much for you?

I mean, I get if you are not up to snuff on lots of the base game values it may seem foreign.

However, this essentially allows PGI to remove structure quirks, energy quirks, and lots of other quirks that are used as a primary balancing mechanic, and makes the base values closer to parity.

What that means for the layman is that quirks would become actual quirks that make variants a bit different, instead of something that dictates meta. It would also allow the IS to have weapons on par with clans in many cases to make things more interesting for both sides.

[1453 R]

I could put four heavy medium lasers on one of my upcoming Vipers, with four/five additional DHS, and have a forty-damage alpha going ~135 kph with orbital lift capability. Alternately, six heavy smalls on an Arctic Cheetah leaves four tons of room for extra heat sinks, with the exact same firepower as the current hex-cSPL builds.

Heavy lasers that can be ganged break MWO. My ideal fixes for them is to make them the go-to singleton or paired-off energy guns, but set it up such that heavy lasers hit power draw limits/Ghost Heat (ideally power draw, since Ghost Heat is provably easy to end-run) much more quickly than ganged standard or pulse lasers, and inflict much stiffer penalties when they do. If you're short on energy hardpoints, like a Summoner or Ferret or whatever, you can use heavy lasers to add some punch you wouldn't otherwise be able to get to, but ganging four or more heavy lasers starts to be straight-up less effective than ganged standard beams.

That's the only way you don't get things like hex-HML quint-HML Hellbringers with thirty cDHS becoming the utterly undisputed, largely unstoppable Kings of Brawling, Ditto HLL at longer ranges.

Also: the man has a point, Gyrok. I mostly skimmed the list because it's basically a huge long list of semi-random digits that encourages the eye to glaze over while reading it. Some formatting or layout swaps might be in order.

Edited by 1453 R, 12 April 2016 - 05:20 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

No.

The only weapons upgrades that this game needs is:

- IS ER Medium/ER Small; generic Energy range quirks removed
- MRMs
- IS Streak 4s/Streak 6s
- UAC2s
- LB 2-X, LB 5-X

Anything beyond that will do nothing good for the game. Adding way more tech just means that it requires something to be added to the Clans which, in turn, means that the IS needs something else. ER energy weapons are fine to be added because we essentially have that already. MRMs just make missile weapons more flexible and gives the IS a missile range advantage to counter Clan weight benefits. And the added UACs and LBs help Light/Mediums with ballistic mounts.

Gyrok, you're pretty gun-ho for all of this and I get it. But, this game already has pretty crap balance as it is. Adding in all of the things that you want will do nothing healthy for the game. Plus, so much of that added tech is nothing more than what we have already. High Velocity ACs just make normal ACs moot as does the Silver Bullet Gauss (LB/Gauss love child), Light ACs, etc. Again, we need things in game that add flavor and fill a niche not already filled. We don't need a version 2.0 of something we already have in game. Think micro, not macro.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 12 April 2016 - 05:23 PM.

[Gyrok]

1453 R, on 12 April 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

I could put four heavy medium lasers on one of my upcoming Vipers, with four/five additional DHS, and have a forty-damage alpha going ~135 kph with orbital lift capability. Alternately, six heavy smalls on an Arctic Cheetah leaves four tons of room for extra heat sinks, with the exact same firepower as the current hex-cSPL builds.

Heavy lasers that can be ganged break MWO. My ideal fixes for them is to make them the go-to singleton or paired-off energy guns, but set it up such that heavy lasers hit power draw limits/Ghost Heat (ideally power draw, since Ghost Heat is provably easy to end-run) much more quickly than ganged standard or pulse lasers, and inflict much stiffer penalties when they do. If you're short on energy hardpoints, like a Summoner or Ferret or whatever, you can use heavy lasers to add some punch you wouldn't otherwise be able to get to, but ganging four or more heavy lasers starts to be straight-up less effective than ganged standard beams.

That's the only way you don't get things like hex-HML Hellbringers with thirty cDHS becoming the utterly undisputed, largely unstoppable Kings of Brawling, Ditto HLL at longer ranges.

Also: the man has a point, Gyrok. I mostly skimmed the list because it's basically a huge long list of semi-random digits that encourages the eye to glaze over while reading it. Some formatting or layout swaps might be in order.

For HSLs, they are a small laser...it would potentially improve a back hunter laser brawler, but the ERSL would run cooler with more range for slightly less damage.

As for HMLs...you are talking about 48 heat per alpha if they take 6. Yeah, that is 60 damage...and I even upped the TT value because ERMLs are already as hot as TT HMLs (thanks PGI).

By comparison, 6 ERMLs now is 36 heat...or 25% less. If you look at the 61 alpha laser puke TW, you are talking about 61 damage for 50 heat with double the range.

I fail to see where that is game breaking to be honest...

You act like IS mechs will not be running around with 3 LXPLs for 39 damage mixed with a handful of ERMLs getting into the 54 range with lots of DHS to offset...

Trauglodyte, on 12 April 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

No.

The only weapons upgrades that this game needs is:

- IS ER Medium/ER Small; generic Energy range quirks removed
- MRMs
- IS Streak 4s/Streak 6s
- UAC2s
- LB 2-X, LB 5-X

Anything beyond that will do nothing good for the game. Adding way more tech just means that it requires something to be added to the Clans which, in turn, means that the IS needs something else. ER energy weapons are fine to be added because we essentially have that already. MRMs just make missile weapons more flexible and gives the IS a missile range advantage to counter Clan weight benefits. And the added UACs and LBs help Light/Mediums with ballistic mounts.

Gyrok, you're pretty gun-ho for all of this and I get it. But, this game already has pretty **** balance as it is. Adding in all of the things that you want will do nothing healthy for the game. Think micro, not macro.

Look at the values suggested.

Seriously...this would put balance much closer than it is now...by a long shot.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Snowbluff, on 12 April 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

Pfft, I find UAC20 plenty usable as is. It's like strapping 4 UAC5 to your mech.

CUAC20 vs 4ISuac5
Tons: 12 / 36
Heat: 7 / 4
Slots: 8 / 20
Range: 360 / 600
Speed: 720 / 1150
CoolD: 4 / 1.66

Pros: One third of the weight. Less than half the space.
Cons: 3/4 the speed ish. Twice the cool down. Almost 3/4 the range.

And that's only on the few IS mechs you can ACTUALLY put 4UAC5s on.

Wonder what happens when you put more than one CUAC20 on a mech.... b/c you sure as **** can't put eight ISuac5 on anything.

"balance"

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 12 April 2016 - 05:32 PM.

[Sir Wulfrick]

Some interesting suggestions. One observation I'd make in relation to the +35 structure buff to assaults v the +40 to other weight classes: I understand that for many assault mechs this would balance out their increased potential damage output over lighter weight classes, but it runs the risk of being an over-nerf to assaults that are hard point deficient for their weight, e.g. things like the Atlas-K.

[Trauglodyte]

I read it, Gyrok. We don't need things like the HAG, Xpulse Lasers, etc. We need things to fill holes, not to relegate more weapons to the waste pile. The Light Gauss just makes the AC10 pointless, etc. This game needs weapon balance (read: Lasers can't be the ****** way to play this game) and we don't need added weapons that make existing weapons obsolete. That is essentially what you'd be doing.

[Gyrok]

Sir Wulfrick, on 12 April 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

Some interesting suggestions. One observation I'd make in relation to the +35 structure buff to assaults v the +40 to other weight classes: I understand that for many assault mechs this would balance out their increased potential damage output over lighter weight classes, but it runs the risk of being an over-nerf to assaults that are hard point deficient for their weight, e.g. things like the Atlas-K.

That is a % buff.

To elaborate:

The Atlas would get essentially +22 structure to CT across all variants

Meanwhile, a mech like the BJ would get approx +10 CT structure across all variants.

Make more sense now?

When I was doing the math, a 40% boost in structure to most IS assault mechs was a pretty asinine number...dialing it back to 35% we get much closer to about where the "better" assault mechs are in terms of structure now.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Russ has already said he fears the balance of future tech, I think he mentioned Heavy Lasers specifically.