80 replies to this topic

[DovisKhan]

Sister RAbbi, on 14 April 2016 - 10:49 PM, said:

When SadCat can boat 6 MLs and a pair of MPLs, and run over 100 km/h without tweak OR MASC, gimme a shout.

Wanna compare Gauss-to-Gauss? Sure. Take the 'worst' Blackjack, the BJ-1DC. What's that? 25% Ballistic cooldown? You're right, that's just not fair. ESPECIALLY when it can run a Gauss with FOUR MLs (SadCat can't run four of ANYTHING, except MGs and heat sinks, and only BARELY has space for the latter).

But then, IS MLs are sad. And that BJ-1DC (or any Blackjack not the -1X) is slower. But then, it has all those structure quirks and other cool stuff. But the SadCat has ... uh ... moar jumpjetz?! I GUESS that's a good thing....

TL;DR- IS and Clam are apples and oranges, but they're not so grossly unbalanced. Pick your poison, but quit picking those cherries please.

1) 6 ML and 2 MPL are way worse than 2 Clan LPL

2) But the Cat does have MASC, so it can run much faster when it's relevant

3) The 1X verion with 8 energy hardpoints you're presenting as better doesn't even have JJ, so the post tweak 114 speed is hardly better than the cats 104

4) ECM, meaning not only better at peek a boo game, but much more valuable to your team overal

5) You sure went to crazy town with dual gauss BJ, no one uses that ever, because you'd have no armor and no ammo (70kph post tweak, no armor and 1.5 tons ammo to be precise)

6) I wasn't the first to compare BJ with shadow cat

7) they're both 45 ton medium mechs, they are not apples and oranges, they're respectively the same mech in their respective factions


Not claiming clan is op in general, but it sure takes the cake in featherweight category


Dominating Light and Medium weights

Being balanced in Heavy and Assault range

Edited by DovisKhan, 14 April 2016 - 11:04 PM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

DovisKhan, on 14 April 2016 - 10:58 PM, said:

1) 6 ML and 2 MPL are way worse than 2 Clan LPL

2) But the Cat does have MASC, so it can run much faster when it's relevant

3) The 1X verion with 8 energy hardpoints you're presenting as better doesn't even have JJ, so the post tweak 114 speed is hardly better than the cats 104

4) ECM, meaning not only better at peek a boo game, but much more valuable to your team overal

5) You sure went to crazy town with dual gauss BJ, no one uses that ever, because you'd have no armor and no ammo (70kph post tweak, no armor and 1.5 tons ammo to be precise)

6) I wasn't the first to compare BJ with shadow cat

7) they're both 45 ton medium mechs, they are not apples and oranges, they're respectively the same mech in their respective factions


Not claiming clan is op in general, but it sure takes the cake in featherweight category


Dominating Light and Medium weights

Being balanced in Heavy and Assault range

7.) Yeah, they ARE very different mechs. They have the same weight, and no hands (well, so SOME SHC LA omnipods have OPTIONAL hands, I suppose). The similarities pretty much end there. BJ is slower, except for one variant. The one variant that's FASTER, has no Jump Jets, like one other variant. BJ has no option for missiles at all. SHC is wider, and has longer legs. SHC can't ditch the JJs or change its engine size. BJ can't do ECM. And so on. VERY different mechs.

But that wasn't even what I meant. More damage at more range, and faster in the heavy and assault weight classes? That's Clan.

Tougher to kill, ton-for-ton, and very specialized per variant? That's IS.

I give you, then, the apple and the orange.

(Ever notice that those two things have VERY similar weights, too? I prefer apples, BTW.)

(PSST: Who said DUAL Gauss BJ? THAT is crazy talk right there, mister. Though, with that ridiculous cooldown quirk, a cooldown module, and so on... Huh... How 'bout that? Someone else already tried it... )

Edited by Sister RAbbi, 14 April 2016 - 11:26 PM.

[M3 SABLE]

Did the clan mechs touch you somewhere?

You sound like a kid that gets pissy when he sees others getting new toys.

They are like the top performers in the game right now.
The only mechs I saw break 1k damage in months, are Black Knights, Maulers, Warhammers, Black Jacks and Banshees.

They are also sturdier, run cooler, and have mechs that trade damage well via PPFLD weaponry and twisting benefits.

In other words, you sound too butthurt and disingenuous. Git Goot

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 14 April 2016 - 06:14 PM, said:

When I want to run AC boat and actually do well I run a mauler.
B/c the speed is the same as the 4x with the same loadout, it has more armor, and more ammo.....AND it can do it without the "please kill me" sign that XL brings you.

... and the mauler has higher hardpoints.
On the other hand, 20 ton lighter 4X has much greater turn rates (both) and arm mounted weapons. This makes it much, much better at tracking fast moving targets, reacting to flanking and backstabbing, shooting down UAVs, fighting against enemies located well above your position and shooting down lights mid-flight.

Now, I don't argue that 4X is a super duper mech. It has those 'worst' disadvantages that are even worse when combined together - low speed and low hardpoints. But still, that makes running it quite a unique experience and if you manage to get into a good position it wrecks face like a charm. 2xAC5+2xUAC5 CTF4 is one of my favourite mechs.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 15 April 2016 - 12:19 AM.

[Templar Dane]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 14 April 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

That's already the max engine.

XL doesn't make an engine faster, it just makes them weigh less.

Then use a 3D. Get bigger engine cap, jump jets, lasers..........

[-Vompo-]

Yes Ebon is much better mech than Cataphract. I don't know how this is a topic.

It is silly to compare the two and it's silly to try to show how catapracht is better.

Next we will probably discuss balance between Timberwolf and Orion or Gargoyle and Battlemaster.

[LordNothing]

i think id rather have the 'phract than the jag. they just seem to hold up better. sure it does 63, but its a heavy, thats enough.

[Corrado]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 14 April 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

Better make this mech have a top speed of 63 b/c it's OP
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9fc54c97fbddec0

But this is fine
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cc50065b7afcd29

Clan favoritism, power creep, and lack of care for your game at it's finest.

dunno my 4xAC5 phract will eat a 2gauss ebj any time. 4 times a double gauss ebj dps.

Edited by Corrado, 15 April 2016 - 05:05 AM.

[TercieI]

Corrado, on 15 April 2016 - 05:05 AM, said:

dunno my 4xAC5 phract will eat a 2gauss ebj any time. 4 times a double gauss ebj dps.

Too bad the Black Widow totally obsoletes it.

[Corrado]

TercieI, on 15 April 2016 - 05:07 AM, said:

Too bad the Black Widow totally obsoletes it.

well yes. missed that. on the good side, my guns aren't in the torso. so i dont lose weapons when armor strips.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Corrado, on 15 April 2016 - 05:24 AM, said:

well yes. missed that. on the good side, my guns aren't in the torso. so i dont lose weapons when armor strips.

Just the arm when the torso blows out

[TercieI]

Corrado, on 15 April 2016 - 05:24 AM, said:

well yes. missed that. on the good side, my guns aren't in the torso. so i dont lose weapons when armor strips.

No advantage of the CTF makes up for the BW's mount positions, IMO.

[Corrado]

Afuldan McKronik, on 15 April 2016 - 05:28 AM, said:

Just the arm when the torso blows out

will still take a lot longer than a torso with critted AC5s as soon as it gets yellow.

[Afuldan McKronik]

By the time the armor is stripped, it really doesn't matter if its a CTF with its terrible mounts but nothing in the torso or a WHM-BW with a critted AC5. Still can't poke with that side anymore.

Not like an AC5 explodes when critted, either.

[TercieI]

Corrado, on 15 April 2016 - 05:46 AM, said:

will still take a lot longer than a torso with critted AC5s as soon as it gets yellow.

??? In a quad AC build, any opponent worth their salt will be shooting your XL STs. They're both 70 tonners, BW has 14 structure buff, CTF has 15, so basically identical. They both require facetime due to being dakka builds, so you can't do much shielding with either. However, the Black Widow can actually peek over things and disengage by using cover. The CTF has to expose literally the entire mech due to low-slung wide-spread arms to bring all four 5s to bear. There's simply no cogent argument for it being better at this build.

[Corrado]

TercieI, on 15 April 2016 - 05:46 AM, said:

No advantage of the CTF makes up for the BW's mount positions, IMO.

for sure. yet the point was CTF-X4 vs EBJ. i still think the EBJ is a superior mech, but a 2gauss ebj still run away from a CTF-4x 4ac5


EDIT:

and yes BW is of course better. i thought i left powercreep leaving world of tanks. not.

Edited by Corrado, 15 April 2016 - 06:01 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Interesting thread. The whole trolly attempt at another cherry-picking "lets point to a crappy mech on one side of the IS/Clan fence to try and make a larger point about overall imbalance" is always a good way to bring out the knives; and it never get old right? So well played, and all that.

But on a serious note, it seems to me that the 4x -and really all the Cataphracts- is exemplary of the bigger problem that many others above have pointed too: current and future obsolescence. As the timeline moves on and new tech is introduced, a lot of our mechs are just going to be worthless in the current game. Cataphracts (not just the 4x) show that the future is already here. They aren't just obsolete when compared to a clan mech having a similar load out, but are obsolete compared to other IS mechs (Marauder and Warhammer are better in just about every way).

Even with quirks, and assuming that the chassis is not completely remodeled and hard points rearranged or changed, there is no way that a phract can compete against the higher and better hardpoints of the similarly quirked Mads and Hammers. What does the future hold? More of the same and with more mechs being affected (ed).

I for one, would really like a mode (or something) introduced at some point wherein only mechs of certain eras or "tech levels" can be played. Otherwise some of the most beloved mechs (Cataphracts, Victors, heck even Thunderbolts and Stalkers) will be rendered effectively unplayable.

Edited by Bud Crue, 15 April 2016 - 06:00 AM.

[Wintersdark]

VompoVompatti, on 15 April 2016 - 12:39 AM, said:

Yes Ebon is much better mech than Cataphract. I don't know how this is a topic.

It is silly to compare the two and it's silly to try to show how catapracht is better.

Next we will probably discuss balance between Timberwolf and Orion or Gargoyle and Battlemaster.

Because he's cherry picking.

The problem with the Cataphract is purely geometry in this case. By the numbers, the two are at least reasonably balanced.

The OP said:

Quote

Clan favoritism, power creep, and lack of care for your game at it's finest.

Favoritism? Power creep? What a load of crap. The CTF suffers from poor geometry (though NOT poor hitboxes), sure. But that isn't PGI's fault - PGI added the mech that the art decreed. Mechs have different geometry, as such some are simply going to be better than others.

This is just the case of someone being disingenuous.

[TercieI]

Corrado, on 15 April 2016 - 05:54 AM, said:

for sure. yet the point was CTF-X4 vs EBJ. i still think the EBJ is a superior mech, but a 2gauss ebj still run away from a CTF-4x 4ac5


EDIT:

and yes BW is of course better. i thought i left powercreep leaving world of tanks. not.

It's a silly comparison, then. The CTF is in a bad place, generally and really isn't great at dual gauss. If you want to talk dual gauss, compare a JM6 and an EBJ. It's a fairly nuanced comparison, actually, considering JM6 quirks. And build your dual gauss EBJ right. It should be asymmetrical. That's one of its advantages.

Edited by TercieI, 15 April 2016 - 06:36 AM.

[Wintersdark]

DovisKhan, on 14 April 2016 - 10:37 PM, said:

still absolute crap, since it requires full body to be peeking due to arms being so low, hands down the worst geometry mech in the game.

Quirks should be double in value for it to even be remotely viable

It's a dog. But it's problems are not power creep or favoritism like the OP says, it's just the result of taking models from a TT game where geometry is irrelevant into a game where geometry is important.