88 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Alright, I know that you guys are not too excited about the current assault Omnimech options, and I had some thoughts about them that I wanted to share, as I think it would be a shame to not include them in game.


For starters, the Kingfisher.



The Kingfisher is a 90 ton Omni-mech with a locked in STD360 Engine and 17 DHS. As such, it has a total pod space of only 24 tons, which is outclassed by several heavy mechs. For this reason, much of the playerbase doesn't want to bother with it, as it is essentially an Executioner without JJs or MASC.



The Kingfisher was regarded as a mech that was extremely difficult to destroy in lore and table top, so to reflect that in MWO, it could be the Clan's "tank" assault mech (they currently don't have any mechs that are considered excessively durable). Taking that theme, if the Kingisher was given significant agility and structure quirks like 40% Accel/Decel, 10-20% torso twist speed, 10-20% turn rate, ~20 CT structure, ~15 RT/LT structure, ~12 Arm/Leg structure, this mech would be a pretty difficult to kill mech, which helps make up for its lack of firepower, MASC, and Jump Jets.



Additionally, the artwork and miniatures suggest high hardpoints on the shoulders, which is another thing that makes this mech interesting, if you focus on giving it higher hardpoints, then it doesn't have to show as much of itself to fire, making it more difficult to kill.



Lastly, weapon quirks. The mech cannot really boat autocannons, so a UAC jam quirk would help the use of single ACs, as would ballistic velocity. Additionally, this mech cannot really get around using lasers, so if it got a ~10% laser duration quirk, it would help its tankiness as it wouldn't have to stare as much.



Stretch goal: ECM. The F variant has ECM on its CT, which would obviously give this mech something other Clan assaults don't have. It would require that its HAG30 be replaced by a Gauss with an extra ton of ammo though. The A and D Kingfisher variants are so similar, and neither really add any hardpoints beyond what other variants already cover, so with the 5-mech per pack plan (plus hero), if the A or D was replaced by the F it would work out, and would definitely give this mech instant appeal.



Next available option is the Turkina. This mech is regarded as an "inferior Dire Wolf". It is 95 tons and moves at 52 kph, with ~42 tons of podspace and JJs. I don't have as much to say about this mech, and it has significant podspace so weapon quirks would likely be out of the question, but if this mech had better torso twist range than the Dire (like ~90 degrees instead of 60), and some minor agility quirks, it could have a place in game, as while it has less firepower than the Dire, and worse hardpoints, it would at least be able to twist further and be less clumsy. The other obvious reason is that it is a staple Clan Jade Falcon assault mech. There currently are not any Clan Jade Falcon assault mechs in game.



Anyway, I just wanted to share my thoughts as I don't want these mechs to get left behind. I definitely think they would both add to the game and are worth releasing.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 April 2016 - 11:52 AM.

[zagibu]

I think they could make a good addition with the quirks you suggested.

I don't really care much, though, because it's just differently shaped targets for me.

[ScarecrowES]

My vote has always been Turkina yay, Kingfisher nay.

I don't think the Turkina is fundementally terrible, and it's without the glaring flaws in the design of the Kingfisher. Of course, with the Kodiak coming up, I'm not sure we have a compelling Clan assault option until much later in the timeline. Warhawk and Dire are getting their volume reduced, so both should be a bit more surviveable, and the Kodiak will be a beast for energy, missile AND ballistic output.

Alex will have to make some "improvements" to the Turkina to have it not look completely ********. That super wide stance will have to be toned down a bit, but all your hardpoints will be well up... including the arms which generally run sideways away from the cockpit.

[Gas Guzzler]

ScarecrowES, on 17 April 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

My vote has always been Turkina yay, Kingfisher nay.

I don't think the Turkina is fundementally terrible, and it's without the glaring flaws in the design of the Kingfisher. Of course, with the Kodiak coming up, I'm not sure we have a compelling Clan assault option until much later in the timeline. Warhawk and Dire are getting their volume reduced, so both should be a bit more surviveable, and the Kodiak will be a beast for energy, missile AND ballistic output.

Alex will have to make some "improvements" to the Turkina to have it not look completely ********. That super wide stance will have to be toned down a bit, but all your hardpoints will be well up... including the arms which generally run sideways away from the cockpit.

Did you read the whole post about the Kingfisher? It could be a solid tank that still has a scary enough alpha strike to matter. (54-61 damage)

For somebody who wants the Linebacker, I'm surprised you would write off the Kingfisher for not having enough firepower. To be honest, I think the Kingfisher would actually arguably be more useful than the Turkina in most situations.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 April 2016 - 11:18 AM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

The Kingfisher is the quintessential mech, when it comes to pronouncing that STD engines need some sort of balance incentive. A 90t mech with a STD is a no-brainer, on the IS side, while on the Clan side it's looked at as a joke.

The Clan XL is just too strong for people to take the Kingfisher seriously. The vast majority of players would rather lose 20% of their speed on the ST loss, than to lose so much weight to the STD engine.

[Gas Guzzler]

LT. HARDCASE, on 17 April 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

The Kingfisher is the quintessential mech, when it comes to pronouncing that STD engines need some sort of balance incentive. A 90t mech with a STD is a no-brainer, on the IS side, while on the Clan side it's looked at as a joke.

The Clan XL is just too strong for people to take the Kingfisher seriously. The vast majority of players would rather lose 20% of their speed on the ST loss, than to lose so much weight to the STD engine.

Well at least when a Clan mech is forced into a standard engine, you can make up for it by quirking the mechs durability, knowing that it will not be taken advantage of with an upgraded XL engine.

[Jackal Noble]

Both garbage assault omnis. Go with the battletech Bane(no bias here). Ok fine, if we are forced to stick with the omni route, the Turkina, and even then maybe. The Kingfisher has total garbage podspace for a 90 ton mech. Thing with the Turkina is it looks like the ugly aborted offspring of a Timberwolf and a Ebon Jaguar, that had some serious pituitary glanding goin on. Also gonna be easy to disarm.

[Torric]

Ballistic velocity quirks?

Please no, this cancer has to stop.

[Gas Guzzler]

JackalBeast, on 17 April 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

Both garbage assault omnis. Go with the battletech Bane(no bias here). Ok fine, if we are forced to stick with the omni route, the Turkina, and even then maybe. The Kingfisher has total garbage podspace for a 90 ton mech. Thing with the Turkina is it looks like the ugly aborted offspring of a Timberwolf and a Ebon Jaguar, that had some serious pituitary glanding goin on. Also gonna be easy to disarm.

Sounds like you didn't read the post. Please read the post.

Personally, 54-61 damage is more than enough for me. If you need 8AC2s then that is your problem.

Torric, on 17 April 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

Ballistic velocity quirks?

Please no, this cancer has to stop.

Why? ballistic velocity quirks on 1 UAC10/20 or 2 UAC5s is that scary to you?

[Jackal Noble]

I did read your post lol, and it's not bad. I just gave my opinion, and if you read my response, I grudgingly picked the Turkina.

[Jackal Noble]

and no I don't need 8 Ac2's that's just ridiculous. I'd prefer 5 UAC10's or 6UAC5s

[Gas Guzzler]

JackalBeast, on 17 April 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

I did read your post lol, and it's not bad. I just gave my opinion, and if you read my response, I grudgingly picked the Turkina.

But, the Kingfisher with those quirks would be way more useful than the Turkina, and you still have enough podspace for 24DHS and 54-61 damage worth of weapons. Just seems like an odd opinion to have. I find the Kingfisher 10 times more insteresting..

The Bane is pure vanilla power creep, I don't really think we need that, the Dire can already do 6 UAC5s, and the Kodiak will be able to do 4 UAC10s will moving at ~60 kph... We don't need MORE dakka than that IMO

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 April 2016 - 11:47 AM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Turkina arms are held very high, which helps it compete against low-slung competitors.

[Jackal Noble]

You said that word again. The one that is used to make total garbage cans somewhat able to fit in the world of hairy chested man mechs. You know what, if they unlock the XL option for the fisher, maybe just maybe that would that work.

Edited by JackalBeast, 17 April 2016 - 11:49 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 April 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

Anyway, I just wanted to share my thoughts as I don't want these mechs to get left behind.

Fair enough.

Quote

It seems the community doesn't want them because they aren't blatant power creep like some of the other community suggestions, but I definitely think they would both add to the game and are worth releasing.

Needlessly prejudicial and misleading.

Most don't want them because the Kingfisher would require substantial quirks to not be terrible and we (as I am in this group) feel that adding more heavy quirkage is just the wrong way to go.

The Turkey... Well, it's just very, very uninteresting.

But saying those who don't agree with you are just in disagreement because these mechs aren't power creeping, that's unfair and douchey.

Just because someone doesn't want an objectively bad mech that would require significant quirks to be decent (with a very real risk of remaining garbage or further mangling IS v Clan balance if those quirks aren't right, which is a serious possibility) doesn't mean they only want ever stronger mechs.

I mean, to be honest I don't care if either are added, but I'd be extremely surprised to see either being particularly popular. I definitely don't see them adding much to the game. But whatevs. Not like I actively oppose either, I'm just totally uninterested in both and nervous about the impact of the Kingfisher and what's required to make it non-terrible.

[Jackal Noble]

Still, I for one don't believe quirks should be used to level the playing ground between superior and inferior mechs, but hey that's the current M.O. Maybe just not used to the idea of a clan mech getting some useful quirk love lol

[Gas Guzzler]

Wintersdark, on 17 April 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

Fair enough.

Needlessly prejudicial and misleading.

Most don't want them because the Kingfisher would require substantial quirks to not be terrible and we (as I am in this group) feel that adding more heavy quirkage is just the wrong way to go.

The Turkey... Well, it's just very, very uninteresting.

But saying those who don't agree with you are just in disagreement because these mechs aren't power creeping, that's unfair and douchey.

Just because someone doesn't want an objectively bad mech that would require significant quirks to be decent (with a very real risk of remaining garbage or further mangling IS v Clan balance if those quirks aren't right, which is a serious possibility) doesn't mean they only want ever stronger mechs.

I mean, to be honest I don't care if either are added, but I'd be extremely surprised to see either being particularly popular. I definitely don't see them adding much to the game. But whatevs. Not like I actively oppose either, I'm just totally uninterested in both and nervous about the impact of the Kingfisher and what's required to make it non-terrible.

Okay, I didn't realize that would offend people... but that is why people want the Bane, the Black Python, the Marauder IIC, etc

I didn't think that was offensive, since you have taken such offense to it I will remove it, but.... wow.


And to pick on the whole "not releasing garbage mechs that would require quirks to be decent":

I guess we should just stop releasing IS mechs then?????

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 April 2016 - 11:53 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

hey chill guzzler, it's cleared up, there may be others that have some valuable input on the subject

[Gas Guzzler]

JackalBeast, on 17 April 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

hey chill guzzler, it's cleared up, there may be others that have some valuable input on the subject

I wasn't frazzled until someone told me I was douchey... I don't get how you argue that though.

Bane? Power creep.
Marauder/Warhammer/ IIC? Power Creep
Mad Cat Mk. II? Power Creep
The Kodiak is also Power Creep
Black Python? Power Creep
Blood Asp? Power creep

Its not douchey, its just a fact that the mechs everyone wants are slated to have ridiculous offensive capabilities. There isn't anything wrong with that... I too feel the call of super awesome mechs.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 April 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

Okay, I didn't realize that would offend people... but that is why people want the Bane, the Black Python, the Marauder IIC, etc

I didn't think that was offensive, since you have taken such offense to it I will remove it, but.... wow.

I didn't take "such offense" to it, I just find it irritating when people taint a good post and well reasoned argument with "and i f you don't agree with me you [want something bad]."

I'm sure there's a name for this, some internet discussion fallacy thing, but I don't really care enough to look. It's just a pet peeve.

Regardless, my point stands:

Kingfisher requires substantial quirks, and more quirks is ugly, and the Turkey is just very, very uninteresting. That certainly applies to a hell of a lot of options now, though; Clan Omnimech game design leads to it being really hard to add interesting new mechs.