88 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 April 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

The Kingfisher was regarded as a mech that was extremely difficult to destroy in lore and table top...

Out of curiosity, were there actually any rules/mechanics that made this mech extremely difficult to destroy in lore and table top?

I'm assuming it spent more tonnage on amor than typical?

[Gas Guzzler]

Ultimax, on 17 April 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

Out of curiosity, were there actually any rules/mechanics that made this mech extremely difficult to destroy in lore and table top?

I'm assuming it spent more tonnage on amor than typical?

Yeah, that and STD engine. The first paragraph on sarna calls it rugged, and says its invulnerability kept it in service.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

I like clan standard engines on mechs ment to be tanky!

[Gas Guzzler]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 17 April 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

I like clan standard engines on mechs ment to be tanky!

Yeah, then the Battle Cobra could get some sweet quirks too!

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 April 2016 - 07:26 PM, said:

Yeah, then the Battle Cobra could get some sweet quirks too!

^this! A million times this!

[Revis Volek]

Torric, on 17 April 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

Ballistic velocity quirks?

Please no, this cancer has to stop.

Do you have any idea how many IS mechs have ballistic velcotiy quirks?

they arent new.

[Torric]

Revis Volek, on 17 April 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

Do you have any idea how many IS mechs have ballistic velcotiy quirks?

they arent new.

That is why i said it has to stop. Meaning, go away. Read my second post on that.

[Gas Guzzler]

Torric, on 18 April 2016 - 03:44 AM, said:

That is why i said it has to stop. Meaning, go away. Read my second post on that.

I mean, I don't mind them, Clan ACs could definitely use the extra velocity on mechs that can't boat them (like the Kingfisher). It may take one shot to get used to but its still helps their precision.

[Odanan]

I want both the Kingfisher and the Turkina! With some well thought quirks they can be great additions to the game.

And I see no problem in adding later the Marauder IIC, the Warhammer IIC, the Bane, the Stone Rhino...

[Odanan]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 17 April 2016 - 07:35 PM, said:

^this! A million times this!

What about a Clan Std Engine omni pack?
Battle Cobra, Stooping Hawk, Lupus and Kingfisher.

[dervishx5]

Odanan, on 18 April 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

What about a Clan Std Engine omni pack?
Battle Cobra, Stooping Hawk, Lupus and Kingfisher.

Lupus is extinct. Crossbow instead.

Battle Cobra and Crossbow would be terrible mechs in MWO unless it was given quirks equal to when they gave the Quickdraw the ability to fire all its LRMs in 2 seconds by accident. No pod space, 95% of the weapons in the arms (not a bad thing but easy to neuter), and the speed is nothing to write home about.

[Gas Guzzler]

Hm. I just thought of something, if you look at commonly used alpha-strike based assault mechs:

BNC-3M: 58 damage (3 LPL, 5 ML, ~73 kph, XL engine)
BNC-3S: 62 damage (2 LPL, 5 ML, Gauss, 60 kph, STD engine)
EXE: 54-61 damage (2 cLPL, 4-5 cERML, 70 kph (91 with MASC))
HGN-732B: 48 damage (3 LPL Gauss, 58 kph, STD engine)
King Crab: 57 damage (3LL, 2 Gauss, 52 kph, STD engine)
Dire Wolf: 84 damage (2 cLPL, 4 cERMLs, 2 Gauss, 52 kph)
BLR-1G: 53 damage (3 LPL, 4 MLs, ~83 kph, XL engine)
Kingfisher: 54-61 damage (2 cLPL, 4-5 cERML, 70 kph, STD engine)
Turkina: 70 damage (2 cLPL, 2 cERMLs, 2 Gauss, 52 kph)

So yeah, the Kingfisher's alpha strike is outclassed by the Dire Wolf (and Kodiak/Turkina too, I know), but not many people even use that build any more, the more common build has 3 cLPL or 3 cERLL or 2 cERPPC to reinforce its distance role (69 or 63 or 50 damage, respectively). But really, it is on par with other assault mechs. Quirks can obviously be used to make up the difference between the Kingfisher and an Executioner, just as they more than make up the difference in the case of the Banshee-3M, which is a mech that really has a striking resemblance to what the Kingfisher would bring to the table, only the Kingfisher is on the Clan side.

Food for thought! Obviously I didn't include mechs like the Mauler or the Atlas because those have slightly different roles, roles which the Kingfisher cannot emulate because of hardpoints, and in the case of the Mauler, podspace.

Edit: Added the Turkina's theoretical alpha-strike build

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 18 April 2016 - 04:16 PM.

[Summon3r]

turkina? YES PLOX

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 April 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

Alright, I know that you guys are not too excited about the current assault Omnimech options, and I had some thoughts about them that I wanted to share, as I think it would be a shame to not include them in game.


For starters, the Kingfisher.



The Kingfisher is a 90 ton Omni-mech with a locked in STD360 Engine and 17 DHS. As such, it has a total pod space of only 24 tons, which is outclassed by several heavy mechs. For this reason, much of the playerbase doesn't want to bother with it, as it is essentially an Executioner without JJs or MASC.



The Kingfisher was regarded as a mech that was extremely difficult to destroy in lore and table top, so to reflect that in MWO, it could be the Clan's "tank" assault mech (they currently don't have any mechs that are considered excessively durable). Taking that theme, if the Kingisher was given significant agility and structure quirks like 40% Accel/Decel, 10-20% torso twist speed, 10-20% turn rate, ~20 CT structure, ~15 RT/LT structure, ~12 Arm/Leg structure, this mech would be a pretty difficult to kill mech, which helps make up for its lack of firepower, MASC, and Jump Jets.



Additionally, the artwork and miniatures suggest high hardpoints on the shoulders, which is another thing that makes this mech interesting, if you focus on giving it higher hardpoints, then it doesn't have to show as much of itself to fire, making it more difficult to kill.



Lastly, weapon quirks. The mech cannot really boat autocannons, so a UAC jam quirk would help the use of single ACs, as would ballistic velocity. Additionally, this mech cannot really get around using lasers, so if it got a ~10% laser duration quirk, it would help its tankiness as it wouldn't have to stare as much.



Stretch goal: ECM. The F variant has ECM on its CT, which would obviously give this mech something other Clan assaults don't have. It would require that its HAG30 be replaced by a Gauss with an extra ton of ammo though. The A and D Kingfisher variants are so similar, and neither really add any hardpoints beyond what other variants already cover, so with the 5-mech per pack plan (plus hero), if the A or D was replaced by the F it would work out, and would definitely give this mech instant appeal.



Next available option is the Turkina. This mech is regarded as an "inferior Dire Wolf". It is 95 tons and moves at 52 kph, with ~42 tons of podspace and JJs. I don't have as much to say about this mech, and it has significant podspace so weapon quirks would likely be out of the question, but if this mech had better torso twist range than the Dire (like ~90 degrees instead of 60), and some minor agility quirks, it could have a place in game, as while it has less firepower than the Dire, and worse hardpoints, it would at least be able to twist further and be less clumsy. The other obvious reason is that it is a staple Clan Jade Falcon assault mech. There currently are not any Clan Jade Falcon assault mechs in game.



Anyway, I just wanted to share my thoughts as I don't want these mechs to get left behind. I definitely think they would both add to the game and are worth releasing.

*IF* The Kingfisher had ECM, you could get me on board.

Turkina might be a nice mech if it had more torso mobility than the DW.

As for the linebacker...being suggested...

Why would you legitimately bring something that has less free tonnage than the HBR with ECM for the same tonnage cost? The HBR does not even have endo/ferro...

For grins and giggles...here is a HBR mounting 2 LPL + 4 ERML with a total of 24 tons of weapons and DHS including internal engine DHS.

If you notice, even the HBR can bring another 4 tons of DHS to help that build become a legitimately viable option...like this.

The reality is, the linebacker will be a poor mech for trading in comparison to the HBR, especially considering the ability of the HBR to side peek and hill poke. The linebacker will also run significantly hotter by comparison as well.

The best option for the Linebacker would look like this, or this...and maybe this. The only option that would include LPLs at all, would look like this...which, unsurprisingly, is exactly the build you see on the SCR with the same weight for tonnage, better side profile, and likely better peeking mounts.

In other words, there is really not a reason to want a SCR speed mech 10 tons heavier, it gives up too much firepower and heat efficiency to get there.

IMO, not worth it. If you cannot do it at 90 kph....then doing 10 more kph is not going to break that situation open into something game changing.

[Gas Guzzler]

Another thing worth mentioning, PGI created a Cyclops variant to give it ECM. To me, that indicates that they would likely do the same for the Kingfisher if we got it. I'm more sure of that now then I was before, as they have demonstrated the willingness to do that.

And yeah, no thanks to the Linebacker.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 19 April 2016 - 07:48 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Turkina would need some serious mobility quirks to make up for that 285 engine...but as someone who likes direct fire mechs I could probably get to liking it. The main issue is honestly the speed. With nascar games the way they are people are going to leave you behind all the time. As for the kingfisher, THAT mech would have to get atlas level quirks be be viable...and have to carry similar armament a bunch of small lasers, one large ballistic and some backup SRMS...but with that limited pod space i doubt thats possible.

Gas Guzzler, on 19 April 2016 - 07:47 PM, said:

Another thing worth mentioning, PGI created a Cyclops variant to give it ECM. To me, that indicates that they would likely do the same for the Kingfisher if we got it. I'm more sure of that now then I was before, as they have demonstrated the willingness to do that.

And yeah, no thanks to the Linebacker.

I thought one variant got ecm anyway?

[Gas Guzzler]

xXBagheeraXx, on 19 April 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

I thought one variant got ecm anyway?

The Kingfisher? Yeah the F does, but its slightly out of timeline and has a HAG 30, that Russ said could potentially be traded out for a Gauss. Some have came back and said "they haven't gone to such lengths to give a mech ECM before so they won't now" and now, they have gone and made up a variant to give it ECM, which is going to greater lengths than just modifying the F variant

[xXBagheeraXx]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 April 2016 - 08:18 PM, said:

The Kingfisher? Yeah the F does, but its slightly out of timeline and has a HAG 30, that Russ said could potentially be traded out for a Gauss. Some have came back and said "they haven't gone to such lengths to give a mech ECM before so they won't now" and now, they have gone and made up a variant to give it ECM, which is going to greater lengths than just modifying the F variant

No i ment the Cyclops.

[Gas Guzzler]

xXBagheeraXx, on 19 April 2016 - 08:27 PM, said:

No i ment the Cyclops.

Sarna says there is not a single Cyclops variant with ECM.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cyclops


PGI made up the variant with ECM that they are selling, to give it more of an Information Warfare feel.

[xXBagheeraXx]

interesting....