116 replies to this topic

[actionking]

The Count is right !
If you use LRM i kill you with SRM

[Bilbo]

Void Angel, on 17 April 2016 - 08:41 PM, said:

PS:

PS:
I don't care, I like Atlai better.

[Cupid and Psyche _]

LRMs aren't bad necessarily, but they are only really effective when you are a lower tier/less experienced player. This is because they are (usually) the easiest weapon to use for new players and they tend to freak out when it is raining missiles down on their cockpits, so they lose all rationality. As you progress further up, as others have said, the usage of them is much, much less.

From what I remember, even in Tier 3, you do not seem LRMs being used as much.

[ExoForce]

Tell me more about LRMs, please. I like to read about them. Do they need a buff to be competitive?

[Jaguaar]

All the advice you have gotten is true. I am still what I would call "NEW" but I noticed that I don't "Freak out" when I see missiles coming at me. The more games you play the more comfortable you become with "peeking and poking" and always be aware where cover is just in case you really need it. (which you always will) I think I am hitting about 1000 matches and I have noticed that, like driving a car, hiding behind cover when seeing missiles is a natural reaction. I am about to hit tier 3 so I am excited to stop seeing so many LRM boats.

[Morggo]

I've been in tier 3 for a few months now, and honestly still see a pretty fair amount of lurms to be honest. Okay, a bit less than T4, and definitely less then the wild tier 5 4th of July rocket-fests.. but yeah, I still see plenty in T3.

First time I've used lurms was the last event, had to pull out my archers and decided for my third variant to try the all missiles hardpoint one. Tried about six different loadouts and totally hated the thing until I landed on 4xLRM5 chain and 4xSRM4. Basically used the lurms while closing/direct fire and found that it made the brawling/SRM work much easier. But yeah, while I got plenty of kills, not a single one came from the lurms. Plenty of damage, but spread. Other thing I did was take just enough lrm ammo to ensure by the time I close it's depleted and did it's job.

Point being, if you use lurms in mid to higher tiers (or see them used) it's probably this sort of tactic.... direct fire 300-400 metres, then close to brawling.

Edited by Morggo, 18 April 2016 - 12:50 PM.

[ice trey]

Blitxll, on 17 April 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

I've seen atlas' taken out purely with missiles... It seems a bit much to just have to "R" to get indirect fire. it makes narcs and tags seem pointless. To top it all off the majority of my pub matches just become camp fests that are super boring cause no one wants to get ***** by LRM's. is this working as intended?

Often times, targets aren't being locked with "R", but instead, another mech has run in with a UAV and popped it down near the front lines, and all the while, every 'mech on your team is just being ignorant of it. If nobody shoots it down then everyone in it's AoE is essentially targeted with "R". That, and every now and again a light/medium packing NARC will be helping out their team by running in, hitting a few targets, and then moving back into cover. In both cases, you've got to be really close. In my experience, it's really quite rare to have a target who stays out of cover long enough to get a missile lock, so "R" is only really effective once a push has started.

Edited by ice trey, 18 April 2016 - 01:21 PM.

[Thunder Child]

LRMs power are inversely proportional to the skill of the target.

With the right use of terrain, you can completely ignore them (right use does NOT equal cowering like a sissy while hugging a rock). Unlike Direct Fire, which will murder you the moment someone sees you.

LRMs are a force multiplier weapon, rather than an actual Power weapon. They allow one and a half mechs to fire at the same target at the same time (if the target is locked). However, in most situations, two direct fire mechs is preferable to one direct fire mech and an LRM support mech, due to Direct Fire being much more precise, and doing much greater damage on target. The ONLY time LRMs are more useful, is when it is not possible to get multiple Direct Fire mechs into combat with the same target.

[Barkem Squirrel]

Ok so we agree LRMs need a buff to be competitive at higher tiers.

Velocity - increase from 160 m/s to 200 m/s. Just to nail those peakers at 400 m.

Firing arc, allow for a higher angle of decent to 80 degrees. (just for those people hiding behind buildings)

Add some more range quirks up to 15%, just for that satisfying feeling of legging that light at 1225 m just before he gets out of range.

If these are implemented I would love just to watch the forums for all the venomous rage, forget playing.

[Fobhopper]

Barkem Squirrel, on 18 April 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

Ok so we agree LRMs need a buff to be competitive at higher tiers.

Velocity - increase from 160 m/s to 200 m/s. Just to nail those peakers at 400 m.

Firing arc, allow for a higher angle of decent to 80 degrees. (just for those people hiding behind buildings)

Add some more range quirks up to 15%, just for that satisfying feeling of legging that light at 1225 m just before he gets out of range.

If these are implemented I would love just to watch the forums for all the venomous rage, forget playing.

That would be overcompensating for higher tier players, and it would make the weapon too good to pass up for lower tier players to the point that the FOO balance gets broken, fast.

While I DO agree that the angle of fire and descent should be more vertical, increasing velocity and putting range quirks is a terrible idea. While LRM's could be in a better place in the competitive scene the actual problem right now is Alpha striking and then ducking away to burn off your ghost heat until you can pop your 60 point alpha damage again. Right now lasers have completely taken over the meta. You instantly hit what you see, stack enough of them and you can melt the torso/chest of a mech in 1 to 2 full alpha's, and as long as you can hide to dissipate heat they are too good of a weapon to pass up.

Compare that to AC weapons, AC5/10/20/10-X/gauss which have limited ammo, requires much more skill, and is incredibly heavy compared to every other weapon in the game, not to mention your ammo for everything but gauss can explode (same with missiles). The payoff isnt there compared to lasers, or even SRM's. The only 2 things AC weapons do better than lasers is that the damage is immediate and pinpoint.

Similar situation with SRM's, they are very short range, limited firing options, can generate a lot of heat and you still have to worry about ammo exploding as well as leading your target. Not to mention the damage is still spread out.

LRM's in and of themselves are a good weapon system, but has 2 skill curves that takes time and a strong understanding of mechs + terrain. They are easy to use, but hard to master, unlike every other weapon system in the game, which are much more direct. What needs to happen is to drop lasers down from being the top tier weapons is that they need to be nerfed. Either their damage needs nerfs, their heat needs to be increased, firing rate needs to be adjusted so you can only fire so X many lasers at once before other lasers can be fired, or reduce the amount of laser hardpoints so that players are forced to use more than just 5 large lasers.

The problem isnt that LRM's are bad, its that lasers are too good right now and completely outshine every other weapon in the game. I personally love ballistic weapons, and think that ammo per tons need to be increased and/or firing rate needs to be faster on them, but thats just me. But the primary culprit is that lasers have too good of range, deal too much damage, and dont generate enough heat to to put them on par with the drawbacks the other weapon systems have.

LRM's can easily be negated by AMS, modules and terrain, but there is no way to negate a 40 to 90 laser alpha other than to just dont ever make yourself a target, which is impossible in a game like this.

[TercieI]

Boogie138, on 18 April 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

I honestly think half the reason higher tier players claim LRMs are crap is they dont want to get lurmed to death.

It has been discussed to no end in general discussion.
So I have no interest in repeating it here.

No, we rag on them because we're tired of losing matches where we die and discover that our last two mechs are fresh LRM mechs who get mopped up and die with 300 scattered damage. The back gets tired carrying these chumps.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

TercieI, on 18 April 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

No, we rag on them because we're tired of losing matches where we die and discover that our last two mechs are fresh LRM mechs who get mopped up and die with 300 scattered damage. The back gets tired carrying these chumps.

that is evidence of two people that do not know how to use them (which is probably 90 perfcent of people that use them at ANY tier) Not they are ineffective.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Boogie138, on 18 April 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

I honestly think half the reason higher tier players claim LRMs are crap is they dont want to get lurmed to death.

It has been discussed to no end in general discussion.
So I have no interest in repeating it here.

Lol, while its true, I dont want to get lurmed to death... Thats why I equip a radar derp module! Luckilly for me, my mechs have at least 2 mech module slots... And maps have a lot of cover!

If PGI removed all cover from the game and made all the battlefields a flat playing field... Then maybe Lurms would be a viable wea... Wait no, who am i kiding, direct fire weapons will still be superior

[Starbomber109]

Sister RAbbi, on 17 April 2016 - 10:32 PM, said:

GET the enemy LRM boat to lock on to YOU. DO IT! DO IT NOW! (Yes, you SHOULD read that in the Governator's voice.) Get him, more importantly, to WASTE SO MANY MISSILES ON YOU. Get his lock, non-line-of-sight, and get behind/under cover, in into a nest of angry AMS CuteFoxes. Or hang right on the edge of his range, and wait for him to start committing missiles to you before rolling right across that line and watching his missiles burst harmlessly in the air above you.

...MOVE OUT! DRAW FIRE! BANG! BANG BANG!

I donno if this is a good idea. ANYTIME you get shot by multiple mechs it will end bad. Even if you have AMS, or even DOUBLE AMS, you're not going to survive two LRM 40 salvos (or at least, you'll be heavily damaged, yes even with AMS) Edit: plus whatever other mechs shoot you. Granted, AMS can be useful if you're facing lots of LRMs, it can be good support to your team.

Also, Radar Dep is a great tool that can cause LRMs to lose track of you if you break line of sight. Even without it, all you have to do is break lock/line of sight, and the LRMs will home in on the last position you were locked, which you should not be at anymore. That tactic doesn't just apply to clan mechs, it applies to any mech that's fast enough.

Edit2: Someone mentioned maps without cover, enter Polar Highlands. This is the map that TAUGHT ME how to avoid LRMs. Even in a map with minimal hard-cover, you can evade LRMs by exploiting lock mechanics and ensuring your team shoots down UAVs, or you can shoot them down yourself if you have the right weapons for it (USE YOUR ARMS) After I had played a few matches on Polar Highlands, I realized I didn't need AMS to mitigate LRM fire. At least not LRM fire lobbed from 1000 meters. LRMs fired from just outside min range (300-500 meters) is much harder to deal with. Even AMS is hard pressed to deal with LRMs at that range.

I only advise against AMS because literally everyone who I've asked who is more experienced at the game has told me to avoid using AMS. Why? AMS is ONLY useful against LRMs, otherwise it's 1 ton of your mech doing nothing. I guess, it could be worse, but ECM does MORE than AMS does, even if it's limited to certain variants, it's still more useful than AMS.

Edited by Starbomber109, 18 April 2016 - 07:24 PM.

[Void Angel]

1.5 tons, if you're not skimping on ammo. And you should consider a few things about what you're told about AMS. But first, allow me to thank you for applying brain cells to Polar Highlands! I love that map, but it showcases the... simplicity... of the tactics that the previous maps have taught the player base. Anyway, consider these things:

The first is the nature of common wisdom. Much of what you've been told about the game by other players is correct, but not all of it. Most of the time, the things you get via common wisdom are true, or close enough it makes little difference, but bias confirmation and groupthink can play a major role. There are people to this day who do not know what the Al'kabor spell line was for in Everquest; or believe that it was stupid to mount up and charge the bridge in Alterac Valley in WoW; or think that the trivial investment of a ton and a half isn't worth it just because it only protects you against LRMs.

The second thing is that the grapevine is prone to oversimplification any hyperbole. The weapons and builds accepted as best are good - all the rest are "trash." Similarly, what you're relating being told about AMS is oversimplified. AMS is a small investment, provides reasonable damage reduction against moderately heavy LRM fire, and works for your teammates. Like with widespread vaccinations. Discounting it just because it only works on LRMS (and Streaks, actually) is incorrect: the logic is oversimplified. What you have to consider is whether or not the average benefit over time is worth the small investment - is the benefit you get when facing LRMs enough to offset the small number of times that 1.5 tons of heat sinks or whatever would have turned around a fight? Chances are that it is, unless you're just not seeing any LRM fire in your tier at your playing times. If that's the case, sure; ditch AMS - but if you're seeing LRMs on a semi-regular basis, vaccinate your damn Battlemechs.

I'm Tier 2, and I still see LRMs on a regular basis. Since there's enough of a threat in the tactical environment, I fit AMS onto every build that I can - but it's a design consideration, not a rote dogma. Most of my Light builds have never featured AMS; several Medium, Heavy, and Assault builds are simply too tight to accommodate the system, and I don't value it very highly on ECM 'mechs, even if they have a lot of space like my Atlas. So, what thisexperienced player is telling you is that AMS should never be discounted, but used when it's appropriate - and that based on my experience, it usually is.

Bilbo, on 18 April 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

PS:
I don't care, I like Atlai better.

PPS: Illiteracy is a terrible thing.

[ExoForce]

Void Angel, on 18 April 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

1.5 tons, if you're not skimping on ammo. And you should consider a few things about what you're told about AMS.

Hats off for this post.

Sometimes I will fire few missiles and keep moving, just to find the enemy. If I see AMS responding, that usually means he is covering someone. Someone big. With a nearby ECM. Time to find and focus on that big guy. Because he has seen my missiles...

[Starbomber109]

ExoForce, on 18 April 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

Hats off for this post.

Sometimes I will fire few missiles and keep moving, just to find the enemy. If I see AMS responding, that usually means he is covering someone. Someone big. With a nearby ECM. Time to find and focus on that big guy. Because he has seen my missiles...

AMS does tend to give your position away. Idk, for me, I'd rather have a heatsink and a half ton of other amo instead of an ams, but I will admit, if you think you'll get shot at by LRMs, and you have a spare ton, feel free, I just don't feel like I personally need it. (And the only reason to put ams on a light mech is to point-blank ams troll enemy mechs)

[SnagaDance]

I will admit that I, with my limited play time to complete challenges, have indeed pulled out one of my missile boats to go farm those KMD's.

Still, the results vary wildly with the skill of my opponents. When I see a lot of the opposing players have unit tags this is usually an indicator of higher skill/more experience playing the game. And so, even though I consider myself a competent LRM-user who gets his own locks, is not afraid to get his armor gauged and who likes to use his secondary weaponry to kill targets, have much poorer results versus the more skilled players.

But when I get seeded into a match filled with noobs I have to fail spectacularly to not get at least 3 KMD's to be honest.

[invernomuto]

Fobhopper, on 18 April 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

LRM's can easily be negated by AMS, modules and terrain, but there is no way to negate a 40 to 90 laser alpha other than to just dont ever make yourself a target, which is impossible in a game like this.

Agreed.
Lasers are the easiest weapons of the game, you have no ammo to manage and you can adjust your aim during the beam.
They should really make them harder for example adding a "charging up" delay or something similar, or increasing heat generated by lasers...

[The Basilisk]

Naaaa try Atleen.....that actualy sounds pretty cool.