116 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

ExoForce, on 18 April 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

Sometimes I will fire few missiles and keep moving, just to find the enemy. If I see AMS responding, that usually means he is covering someone. Someone big. With a nearby ECM. Time to find and focus on that big guy. Because he has seen my missiles...

Starbomber109, on 19 April 2016 - 01:37 AM, said:

AMS does tend to give your position away.

LRM recon is hilarious, but AMS only gives your position away when you don't turn it off. There is a hotkey for that, you know. If you do get my AMS, however, it could be any number of 'mechs, from Mediums all the way up to Assaults - and especially if you're running Polar Highlands, I may well be away from the team trying to probe your flank.

Edited by Void Angel, 19 April 2016 - 10:33 AM.

[Void Angel]

The Basilisk, on 19 April 2016 - 05:04 AM, said:

Naaaa try Atleen.....that actualy sounds pretty cool.

[Bilbo]

Void Angel, on 18 April 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

1.5 tons, if you're not skimping on ammo. And you should consider a few things about what you're told about AMS. But first, allow me to thank you for applying brain cells to Polar Highlands! I love that map, but it showcases the... simplicity... of the tactics that the previous maps have taught the player base. Anyway, consider these things:

The first is the nature of common wisdom. Much of what you've been told about the game by other players is correct, but not all of it. Most of the time, the things you get via common wisdom are true, or close enough it makes little difference, but bias confirmation and groupthink can play a major role. There are people to this day who do not know what the Al'kabor spell line was for in Everquest; or believe that it was stupid to mount up and charge the bridge in Alterac Valley in WoW; or think that the trivial investment of a ton and a half isn't worth it just because it only protects you against LRMs.

The second thing is that the grapevine is prone to oversimplification any hyperbole. The weapons and builds accepted as best are good - all the rest are "trash." Similarly, what you're relating being told about AMS is oversimplified. AMS is a small investment, provides reasonable damage reduction against moderately heavy LRM fire, and works for your teammates. Like with widespread vaccinations. Discounting it just because it only works on LRMS (and Streaks, actually) is incorrect: the logic is oversimplified. What you have to consider is whether or not the average benefit over time is worth the small investment - is the benefit you get when facing LRMs enough to offset the small number of times that 1.5 tons of heat sinks or whatever would have turned around a fight? Chances are that it is, unless you're just not seeing any LRM fire in your tier at your playing times. If that's the case, sure; ditch AMS - but if you're seeing LRMs on a semi-regular basis, vaccinate your damn Battlemechs.

I'm Tier 2, and I still see LRMs on a regular basis. Since there's enough of a threat in the tactical environment, I fit AMS onto every build that I can - but it's a design consideration, not a rote dogma. Most of my Light builds have never featured AMS; several Medium, Heavy, and Assault builds are simply too tight to accommodate the system, and I don't value it very highly on ECM 'mechs, even if they have a lot of space like my Atlas. So, what thisexperienced player is telling you is that AMS should never be discounted, but used when it's appropriate - and that based on my experience, it usually is.


PPS: Illiteracy is a terrible thing.

PPS:
I'm as literate as I need to be and will continue to pluralize Atlas as I see fit.

[Mole]

LRMs are a pretty awful weapon. They make a terrible primary weapon and are only good as a side weapon and then only sometimes on certain 'mechs because people who don't know how to avoid LRMs, which is an incredibly easy thing to do, cry and moan and whine about how a weapon system that is already the most difficult one in the game to utilize effectively being OP when quite honestly they are probably one of the crappiest weapon systems to have. They are devestating when used correctly, but it is difficult to use them correctly because they just have so many hard counters. ECM breaks them. Radar Deprivation modules break them. Taking cover behind terrain breaks them. And you get a nifty little warning that you need to hide behind something the second those missiles that have a pitiful travel speed are launched at you. Not to mention how much tonnage and hardpoints the support equipment that makes LRMs only slightly more viable takes up, we're talking a missile hardpoint for NARC, an energy hardpoint for TAG, a bunch of critical slots and extra tons for ARTEMIS. At the end of the day, once you get into tiers where people aren't doing stupid things, LRMs are kind of underwhelming. But PGI will never fix them because every time LRMs receive a buff the forums drown in tears from people who mistakenly still believe that LRMs are "OP EZ mode". And this entire post hasn't even mentioned the fact that LRM launchers have terrible accuracy to the point where you fire an LRM 20 probably 5 of your missiles are going to miss due to spread every single time if not more. I've literally seen people walk out into the open with no cover and get destroyed by LRM rain and then cry about how LRMs are OP. So, you walk into the open with no cover the enemy will shoot you, huh? What a friggin' concept.

Edited by Mole, 19 April 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[Void Angel]

Bilbo, on 19 April 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

PPS:
I'm as literate as I need to be and will continue to pluralize Atlas as I see fit.

No one can make you stop being wrong - you're right about that.

[Aerei]

At low tiers LRMs are crazy for a few reasons. There's the aforementioned lack of skill, situational awareness, and environmental awareness--but there's also the fact that almost no one there has probably invested into Radar Deprivation.

I can't speak for top top play, but at Tier 3, LRMs are essentially a means to punish YOLO players, deter a big rush, and rack up some damage on bigger mechs during a push. In my opinion, LRMs, at least at this tier, aren't bad, but they may be more like a glorified air strike in how they are used.

That said, I don't find LRMs to be as useless at mid-high level as some people claim, but they're definitely not as overpowered as they feel in tier 4 or 5.

Seriously, once you get Radar Deprivation and get good at using cover, LRMs become a lot less threatening. It's important to remember that the cover is good for shielding from missiles, true, but with Radar Deprivation, the cover is better for knocking out a target lock on you. There's a subtle distinction there, but I think it's important to remember when your main source of cover is a slope.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Rogue Jedi, on 18 April 2016 - 04:09 AM, said:

They never could change target, at least not since I joined in mid 2012. what they can do is fire on a target, then loose and reaquire the lock, then if they have Artemus and/or TAG perform a sharp turn to reaquire that target

I'm quite certain I've had missiles in flight (OLD Forest Colony map, 8v8) at a target that disappeared or was destroyed, and locked another target, and those missiles in flight started tracking the new target. MIGHT be I'm wrong here, but I feel VERY strongly that I recall having done exactly that.

[Rogue Jedi]

Sister RAbbi, on 19 April 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:

I'm quite certain I've had missiles in flight (OLD Forest Colony map, 8v8) at a target that disappeared or was destroyed, and locked another target, and those missiles in flight started tracking the new target. MIGHT be I'm wrong here, but I feel VERY strongly that I recall having done exactly that.

I am not going to get into an argument about this, your post is literally the only time I have ever heard of this happening, but if it happened to you fair enough

[SnagaDance]

Who knows? Some things that happened in Beta should just stay there.

[Bilbo]

Void Angel, on 19 April 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

No one can make you stop being wrong - you're right about that.

When did I say anything about being right? I'm just taking a long running forum joke and running with it.

[s1rGr1nG0]

With my "Pirates Bane", radar derp, sonar, and ECM I don't have that problem.

Plus, if I'm behind them or directly underneath them they can't hit me anyway.

If they do start turning in my direction I just vanish behind some structure and speed off at 165kph.

[Starbomber109]

s1rGr1nG0, on 20 April 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

With my "Pirates Bane", radar derp, sonar, and ECM I don't have that problem.

Plus, if I'm behind them or directly underneath them they can't hit me anyway.

If they do start turning in my direction I just vanish behind some structure and speed off at 165kph.

Doesn't that mech also have AMS? I know there's a mech out there with ECM and AMS...which is ideal for trolling

[Rogue Jedi]

Starbomber109, on 20 April 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

Doesn't that mech also have AMS? I know there's a mech out there with ECM and AMS...which is ideal for trolling

you are probably thinking of the Kit Fox, ECM + 3 AMS.
On a Light Mech taking just 1 AMS is pretty much pointless, you are fast enough to evade LRMs and AMS is not very effective against SRMs or SSRMs so you would only be taking AMS to protect teammates, and I think every Mech with ECM has the option for at least 1 AMS.

[Lily from animove]

Because bad awareness and bad placement. LRM's are the best system to counter with proper cover by some hills and buildings.

Amongst the beginner tier they are very strong because they usually don't know the map, cover and stuff. And so, using an hover over to lock and click weapon is a very big and working deal amongst newbies. But the higher in skill your opponens get the taugher it is to make proper use of them.

Boogie138, on 18 April 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

I honestly think half the reason higher tier players claim LRMs are crap is they dont want to get lurmed to death.

It has been discussed to no end in general discussion.
So I have no interest in repeating it here.

such nonsense, no higher league play uses lrm's because they are bordline pointless. Higher tier players don't fear lrm's because all you need is a chokepoint and a hill and all the lrm's the opponent throws are worthless.

LRM's require you opponent to be in the open and at a specific distance, thats already not good. further they need to lock, which takes time and they need to quite some flight time + have an arc they fly. IT's an wy too biased system that has too easily exploitable weaknesses for proper pilots. Then higher LRM volleys spread, which isn't exactly efficient

Edited by Lily from animove, 22 April 2016 - 03:33 AM.

[Digital_Angel]

Lily from animove, on 22 April 2016 - 03:25 AM, said:

LRM's require you opponent to be in the open and at a specific distance, thats already not good. further they need to lock, which takes time and they need to quite some flight time + have an arc they fly. IT's an wy too biased system that has too easily exploitable weaknesses for proper pilots. Then higher LRM volleys spread, which isn't exactly efficient

This is part of why people say that there are multiple skill tiers to using LRMs. Once you get good at dumb-firing LRMs accurately without a lock, they get nasty again. Yes that requires line of sight, and you can argue that more traditional direct fire weapons are better for the weight and space used. Even line of sight dumb firing LRMs have some arc so they can be used to hit an opponent behind cover (to a point) similar to using an artillery or air strike on an opponent behind cover.

[wanderer]

Dumbfiring LRMs without a lock basically requires your opponent to not move.

As if they're moving, you'll miss 99% of the time. Real direct-fire weaponry is absolutely superior in every way.

Put some lasers on your lurmboat. Use them. There's a long line of bad missile lobbers who could have lost 5 tubes or a ton or two of ammo for something to fire without locks.

Also, as a a side note: NARC pods are missiles. AMS will destroy them at range, especially with the overload module or multiple AMS systems. Hate being podded and lurmbombed? Pack AMS.

[Digital_Angel]

My LRM build go pack lasers, any being good at dumb firing LRMs takes a lot of skill and is definitely a second skill plateau for that weapon system. Used correctly, I have decimated opponents with it though when used correctly. Dumb firing doesn't give them the incoming missile warning, so if they are focused on something else (especially in CW where there are more mechs always on the field until late game) you can nail those people who think they are safe poking behind cover from those sniper spots.

[Valar13]

Boogie138, on 18 April 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

that is evidence of two people that do not know how to use them (which is probably 90 perfcent of people that use them at ANY tier) Not they are ineffective.

So when are you marrying LRMs? Because this is at least the second impassioned defense of them I've seen from you.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Valar13, on 16 May 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

So when are you marrying LRMs? Because this is at least the second impassioned defense of them I've seen from you.

Are you personally upset that I possess a skill and understanding of a part of this game that you do not?

Further- I will go to bat for anything that can be made to work well in this game. I could sit here and preach about the glorious cookie cutter laser meta if you would like (full disclosure: more often than I actually run lazorz vomit) but what would be the point? Everybody and their mom talks about laser meta here 24/7 as is.

Also, have you actually followed me arround and read what I usually say about Lurms? More often than not my posts are a cautionary tail of the false sense of superior skill that lurms tend to instill in rookie pilots.

Finally, I dont need to defend LURMs. My results in game with them speak for themselves.

Edited by Boogie138, 16 May 2016 - 07:15 AM.

[Valar13]

Boogie138, on 16 May 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

Are you personally upset that I possess a skill and understanding of a part of this game that you do not?

Further- I will go to bat for anything that can be made to work well in this game. I could sit here and preach about the glorious cookie cutter laser meta if you would like (full disclosure: more often than I actually run lazorz vomit) but what would be the point? Everybody and their mom talks about laser meta here 24/7 as is.

Also, have you actually followed me arround and read what I usually say about Lurms? More often than not my posts are a cautionary tail of the false sense of superior skill that lurms tend to instill in rookie pilots.

Finally, I dont need to defend LURMs. My results in game with them speak for themselves.

I understand LRMs well enough. I've used them before, you know? I had a TBR that I averaged about 5-600 damage in QP with. But pulse lasers and autocannons are simply better weapons, and I only use good weapons. Ones that make my 5-600 damage meaningful.