247 replies to this topic

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Gyrok, on 24 April 2016 - 11:35 AM, said:

So you are saying that, in your point of view, Clan mechs were fine and never needed adjustments ever?

I am genuinely curious as to what your response will be.

I agree with the change in clan energy weapon heat scaling and range -- both were necessary, but disagree with the idea that timberwolves were OP.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Honestly, the Oxide is better at what it does than all other IS mechs. Of course there aren't any other SRM boat IS lights besides the Commando which doesn't have the tonnage to pull it off.

The question is Jenner IIC vs Oxide.

Jenner IIC does BnZ better and hits way way harder. Technically it can be faster and have JJ but realistically everyone would rather have the ammo. Oxide has higher DPS and runs cooler and is tankier meaning it can do the TnB and BnZ style fighting making it a better all around mech.

Honestly... I have no problem killing oxides in my IIC (to be fair, I go full 6srm6 splat and fire at point blank range typically) and vice versa (4SRM4 that's pretty close to pin point is quite good and allows you to hunt at range).

Would I say Oxide is P2W? Hmm... not with the Jenner IIC, cheeto, and firestarter around. Is it the best Jenner? Yes but if the other jenners had the same structure quirks they'd be on par with the firestarters IMO.

Would I say it's power level should probably be tapped down a bit? Yes. I'd probably halve the structure quirks for a start and see how that goes.

[Kaveli]

Tarogato, on 23 April 2016 - 08:45 PM, said:

Great match, great commentary. But what it doesn't convince me of is, "The JR7-D (or JR7-IIC) is on equal footing with the JR7-O."

And until that is the case, I'm going to agree that the Oxide is P2W. Which pjsses me off because as somebody who prefers playing lights and is free-to-play... I can't bloody get my hands on it. At all.

Pull $15 out of your pocket. The oxide is cheap and goes on sales 50% off all the time. If you put more than 30+ hours into the game just get the better mech. Don't complain about $15 pay walls.

[Tarogato]

Kaveli, on 24 April 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

Pull $15 out of your pocket. The oxide is cheap and goes on sales 50% off all the time. If you put more than 30+ hours into the game just get the better mech. Don't complain about $15 pay walls.

15$ for the Ember then, $15 for the Huginn later, now 15$ for the Oxide... and what's the next strongest light going to be? 15$ for some hero Wolfhound?

It's not just 15$. If you want to keep up with the meta, you have to keep buying new mechs. After several meta shifts, you have a stable of now useless hero mechs that are long forgotten due to balance changes. This is the issue with the paywall, not that it's "only a 15$ mech".

[Darian DelFord]

Tarogato, on 24 April 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

15$ for the Ember then, $15 for the Huginn later, now 15$ for the Oxide... and what's the next strongest light going to be? 15$ for some hero Wolfhound?

It's not just 15$. If you want to keep up with the meta, you have to keep buying new mechs. After several meta shifts, you have a stable of now useless hero mechs that are long forgotten due to balance changes. This is the issue with the paywall, not that it's "only a 15$ mech".

I think this is another core issue of the perception of OP'ness from the OXIDE. I will agree that i do not understand why it got the lion share of viability and is only MC. Keep it as is, give the structure buffs to the other Jenners and I bet these threads go away.

[DrxAbstract]

Darian DelFord, on 24 April 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

I think this is another core issue of the perception of OP'ness from the OXIDE. I will agree that i do not understand why it got the lion share of viability and is only MC. Keep it as is, give the structure buffs to the other Jenners and I bet these threads go away.

Probably not. While the other Jenners need those structure buffs, the fundamental issue still remains: Dealing damage with them still requires, relatively speaking, a lot more face time than the Oxide, which is the true reason it's popular despite its drawbacks... Making it the 'best' option under the circumstances.

Exposed Lights are vulnerable Lights.

[Tarogato]

[[ present quirks ]]	[[ which quirks tarogato would alter ]]
JR7-D / JR7-D(F) / JR7-D(S)	JR7-D / JR7-D(F) / JR7-D(S)
	Additional Structure Center Torso+7 Additional Structure L/R Arm+8 Additional Structure L/R Torso+5 Additional Structure L/R Leg+6
Missile Weapon Cooldown20% Missile Weapon Velocity10% Acceleration30% Deceleration30% Turn Rate25% Torso Angle Yaw+18° Torso Yaw Speed30%	Missile Weapon Cooldown 25% Missile Weapon Velocity [remove]
JR7-F / JR7-F(C)	JR7-F / JR7-F(C)
	Additional Structure Center Torso+7 Additional Structure L/R Arm+8 Additional Structure L/R Torso+5 Additional Structure L/R Leg+6
Laser Duration-10% Acceleration20% Deceleration20% Turn Rate15% Torso Angle Yaw+18° Torso Yaw Speed30%	Laser Duration-15%
JR7-K	JR7-K
	Additional Structure Center Torso+7 Additional Structure L/R Arm+8 Additional Structure L/R Torso+5 Additional Structure L/R Leg+6
Energy Weapon Range10% Laser Duration-5% Acceleration20% Deceleration20% Turn Rate15% Torso Angle Yaw+18° Torso Yaw Speed30%	Energy Weapon Range 15% Laser Duration -10%
JR7-O "Oxide"	JR7-O "Oxide"
Additional Structure Center Torso+11 Additional Structure L/R Arm+12 Additional Structure L/R Torso+8 Additional Structure L/R Leg+16	Additional Structure Center Torso+7 Additional Structure L/R Arm+8 Additional Structure L/R Torso+5 Additional Structure L/R Leg+6
Missile Weapon Cooldown15% Missile Weapon Heat Generation-10% Missile Weapon Velocity10% Acceleration35% Deceleration35% Turn Rate25%	Turn Rate 15%

[Ultimax]

Yeah man your video anecdote is way more convincing than all of the NA Div A & Div B MRBC Matches this season where oxides were constantly used, often to huge effect.


It's just all of our collective imagination, nothing to see here, no over-quirks at all, 16+ DPS on a light mech is totally fine.

Edited by Ultimax, 24 April 2016 - 01:46 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Tarogato, on 24 April 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

[[ present quirks ]]	[[ which quirks tarogato would alter ]]
JR7-D / JR7-D(F) / JR7-D(S)	JR7-D / JR7-D(F) / JR7-D(S)
	Additional Structure Center Torso+7 Additional Structure L/R Arm+8 Additional Structure L/R Torso+5 Additional Structure L/R Leg+6
Missile Weapon Cooldown20% Missile Weapon Velocity10% Acceleration30% Deceleration30% Turn Rate25% Torso Angle Yaw+18° Torso Yaw Speed30%	Missile Weapon Cooldown 25% Missile Weapon Velocity [remove]
JR7-F / JR7-F(C)	JR7-F / JR7-F(C)
	Additional Structure Center Torso+7 Additional Structure L/R Arm+8 Additional Structure L/R Torso+5 Additional Structure L/R Leg+6
Laser Duration-10% Acceleration20% Deceleration20% Turn Rate15% Torso Angle Yaw+18° Torso Yaw Speed30%	Laser Duration-15%
JR7-K	JR7-K
	Additional Structure Center Torso+7 Additional Structure L/R Arm+8 Additional Structure L/R Torso+5 Additional Structure L/R Leg+6
Energy Weapon Range10% Laser Duration-5% Acceleration20% Deceleration20% Turn Rate15% Torso Angle Yaw+18° Torso Yaw Speed30%	Energy Weapon Range 15% Laser Duration -10%
JR7-O "Oxide"	JR7-O "Oxide"
Additional Structure Center Torso+11 Additional Structure L/R Arm+12 Additional Structure L/R Torso+8 Additional Structure L/R Leg+16	Additional Structure Center Torso+7 Additional Structure L/R Arm+8 Additional Structure L/R Torso+5 Additional Structure L/R Leg+6
Missile Weapon Cooldown15% Missile Weapon Heat Generation-10% Missile Weapon Velocity10% Acceleration35% Deceleration35% Turn Rate25%	Turn Rate 15%

yeah you just made every Jenner worse

Ultimax, on 24 April 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

Yeah man your video anecdote is way more convincing than all of the NA Div A & Div B MRBC Matches this season where oxides were constantly used, often to huge effect.


It's just all of our collective imagination, nothing to see here, no over-quirks at all, 16+ DPS on a light mech is totally fine.

My video is something else entirely, Now look at the rules for drop one of MRBC add in Clan Streaks and I bet they will not be AS prevalent. Once again just because things are removed from league game play does not make it OP.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 24 April 2016 - 01:47 PM.

[Coolant]

Because you can pilot other mechs, OP, has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the Oxide is overpowered.

You are basically saying:
"I can pilot other mechs, therefore the Oxide is not overpowered."

-Ignoratio elenchi (irrelevant conclusion, missing the point) – an argument that may in itself be valid, but does not address the issue in question.-

-Also, Argument from (personal) incredulity (divine fallacy, appeal to common sense) – One cannot imagine how this could be true, therefore it must be false.-

Just because you, OP, are saying you can't imagine how the Oxide is overpowered, therefore it is not overpowered, is a logical fallacy.

-Also, Red herring – a speaker attempts to distract an audience by deviating from the topic at hand by introducing a separate argument the speaker believes is easier to speak to.

It is easier for you to speak of your piloting prowess and defend that point than to speak to the issue at hand which is that the Oxide is overpowered.

Edited by Coolant, 24 April 2016 - 02:01 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

And I am still waiting for those videos that show an OXIDE face tanking 2 assaults and living. I mean hell, everyone says they can't kill the damned thing.

Prove it.

I die very easily if I make a mistake in an OXIDE or any light for that matter. Folks keep bringing MRBC up. As stated above and IMHO MWO CAN NOT be balanced (Any mech) based off of leagues that DO NOT allow all systems of MWO to be used. I am sorry but the MRBC drop 1 deck pretty much nulls the but OXIDE is OP in MRBC

Edited by Darian DelFord, 24 April 2016 - 02:05 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Coolant, on 24 April 2016 - 01:57 PM, said:

Because you can pilot other mechs, OP, has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the Oxide is overpowered.

You are basically saying:
"I can pilot other mechs, therefore the Oxide is not overpowered."

-Ignoratio elenchi (irrelevant conclusion, missing the point) – an argument that may in itself be valid, but does not address the issue in question.-[/color]

-Also, Argument from (personal) incredulity (divine fallacy, appeal to common sense) – One cannot imagine how this could be true, therefore it must be false.-[/color]

Just because you, OP, are saying you can't imagine the Oxide being overpowered, therefore it is not overpowered, is a logical fallacy.[/color]

-Also, Red herring – a speaker attempts to distract an audience by deviating from the topic at hand by introducing a separate argument the speaker believes is easier to speak to.[/color]

It is easier for you to speak of your piloting prowess and defend that point than to speak to the issue at hand which is that the Oxide is overpowered.

I like Darian, but when it comes to Jenners, I do feel he has trouble with objectivity because it's too close to home. Much like Gyrok has good points, or JohnnyZ, once you get them on their blind spots (Clan and IS faction balance) both go off the rails, and can't remotely see it. So I find Darian about Jenners, and I suppose I would become if they ever added the Deputy Dawg Urbie.

It becomes to easy to mistake our wants, play styles, opinions, etc for actual objective fact.

We also regularly see it on almost ANY balance post when you mention nerfing a meta...the metahumpers come out in force to defend how balanced their meta is. It's just human nature.

It's not that he's even entirely wrong, its just the perceived flaws are MORE egregious, etc.

IDK, even talking to all the comps I run into when asking about Light Meta Master Mechs, it's Oxide/Jenny IIC then ACH atm.

And I can't get any two groups to agree on which is better Oxide or Jenny2. But in general, Oxide seems to be in the lead for King of the Lights, atm.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 April 2016 - 02:05 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

Coolant, on 24 April 2016 - 01:57 PM, said:

Because you can pilot other mechs, OP, has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the Oxide is overpowered.

You are basically saying:
"I can pilot other mechs, therefore the Oxide is not overpowered."

-Ignoratio elenchi (irrelevant conclusion, missing the point) – an argument that may in itself be valid, but does not address the issue in question.-

-Also, Argument from (personal) incredulity (divine fallacy, appeal to common sense) – One cannot imagine how this could be true, therefore it must be false.-

Just because you, OP, are saying you can't imagine how the Oxide is overpowered, therefore it is not overpowered, is a logical fallacy.

-Also, Red herring – a speaker attempts to distract an audience by deviating from the topic at hand by introducing a separate argument the speaker believes is easier to speak to.

It is easier for you to speak of your piloting prowess and defend that point than to speak to the issue at hand which is that the Oxide is overpowered.

This guy completely misread the OP's post. /facepalm

[Darian DelFord]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 April 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

I like Darian, but when it comes to Jenners, I do feel he has trouble with objectivity because it's too close to home. Much like Gyrok has good points, or JohnnyZ, once you get them on their blind spots (Clan and IS faction balance) both go off the rails, and can't remotely see it. So I find Darian about Jenners, and I suppose I would become if they ever added the Deputy Dawg Urbie.

It becomes to easy to mistake our wants, play styles, opinions, etc for actual objective fact.

We also regularly see it on almost ANY balance post when you mention nerfing a meta...the metahumpers come out in force to defend how balanced their meta is. It's just human nature.

It's not that he's even entirely wrong, its just the perceived flaws are MORE egregious, etc.

IDK, even talking to all the comps I run into when asking about Light Meta Master Mechs, it's Oxide/Jenny IIC then ACH atm.

And I can't get any two groups to agree on which is better Oxide or Jenny2. But in general, Oxide seems to be in the lead for King of the Lights, atm.

Was wondering when you were going to show up.

Is the Deputy Dawg Urbie actually a thing? (yeah makes me sound like an idiot, I know)

You are correct I am passionate about my Jenners. especially when assaults and heavies who stip armor, don't know how to reverse turn, and get left behind moan and cry about OP'ness. Once again, no one can show me a vid of an OXIDE taking on 2 assaults at he same time and winning handily. Been asking for that for 2 weeks now.

And if you want my opinion I would say the Oxide over the IIC, simply due to durability. I won't let the IIC get close enough to get a good alpha.

[2fast2stompy]

I Zeratul I, on 23 April 2016 - 11:13 PM, said:

Whenever a disproportionate number of skilled pilots use the same mech, it always seems OP.

Timberwolves seemed OP when a lot of good pilots used them, arctic cheetahs seemed OP when good pilots were still using them, oxide now seem OP because a lot of good pilots are using them.

People have a tendency to mistake skill for certain mechs being overpowered.

I see lots of oxides in game that get smashed without doing more than 50 dmg. They only seem OP because there are a lot of really good pilots using them right now.

BEEEEP WRONG ANSWER, sorry, better luck next time

Good players have the experience and knowledge to recognize good mechs.
Just because a potato dies instantly with -5 damage does not mean the mech he died in was not OP.

I'm not making a statement about Oxides, to be clear.

[Bishop Steiner]

Darian DelFord, on 24 April 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

Was wondering when you were going to show up.

Is the Deputy Dawg Urbie actually a thing? (yeah makes me sound like an idiot, I know)

You are correct I am passionate about my Jenners. especially when assaults and heavies who stip armor, don't know how to reverse turn, and get left behind moan and cry about OP'ness. Once again, no one can show me a vid of an OXIDE taking on 2 assaults at he same time and winning handily. Been asking for that for 2 weeks now.

And if you want my opinion I would say the Oxide over the IIC, simply due to durability. I won't let the IIC get close enough to get a good alpha.

If I actually video'd I'd see if I can catch it. I don't see them taking on 2 at once (not off the top of my memory anyhow) but they are damnably common at taking them out 1 at a time then coming back for dessert.

If I do run anytime soon, I'll try to remember to enable shadowplay in case I run into any really interesting Jenny/Jenny II action, period.

IICs do seem to splat a lot easier.

And naw, DD is not a thing, and I doubt ever will be. Just saying I would likely have trouble being objective because it would be "my baby".

I've been pretty good about it, I think in general, but we all fall prey, so I don't see why I wouldn't, too.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 April 2016 - 02:18 PM.

[Ultimax]

Darian DelFord, on 24 April 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

My video is something else entirely, Now look at the rules for drop one of MRBC add in Clan Streaks and I bet they will not be AS prevalent. Once again just because things are removed from league game play does not make it OP.

Drop 1 has lights in it, bringing weaker lights than oxides isn't going to suddenly make your deck better vs. streaks if they were allowed.


You'd still bring the strongest light, and right now that's the Oxide.

[Tarogato]

Darian DelFord, on 24 April 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

yeah you just made every Jenner worse

I mean, all I did was add structure to every jenner and increase one of their quirks (or in the case of the JR7-D traded the velocity quirk for a better cooldown quirk. And then reduced the structure and turn rate on the Oxide.

Yay for reading comprehension?

[Gyrok]

Tarogato, on 24 April 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

I mean, all I did was add structure to every jenner and increase one of their quirks (or in the case of the JR7-D traded the velocity quirk for a better cooldown quirk. And then reduced the structure and turn rate on the Oxide.

Yay for reading comprehension?

Some guys cannot stand to have their crutch tinkered with...like the 2 oxide defending trolls in here.

[DrxAbstract]

Gyrok, on 24 April 2016 - 02:24 PM, said:

Some guys cannot stand to have their crutch tinkered with...like the 2 oxide defending trolls in here.

Crutch troll... Just like most everything else you've said on this subject: Unsupported speculation and fallacious rubbish.