247 replies to this topic

[DrxAbstract]

Scout Derek, on 25 April 2016 - 06:57 AM, said:

You know exactly who you are.

(Thread thread cleaned up a bit)

Not exactly, so either it's improper word use or a misunderstanding.

[Jikil]

I think there has been plenty of evidence from MRBC matches to just what lights are showing up in games. I haven't seen an ember in probably 200 games. But I see Oxides at least once every few matches. Not as much as the Jenner IIC, but you can buy one with cbills and the other with MC.

If PGI wants the opxide to be the best light mech for light brawling. To be the terror of Daishi's and other assaults, I'm fine with that. Many light mechs have been that terror.

But you can't lock something because a paywall and expect us to just accept it.

The Misery is probably the 2nd or 3rd best Stalker. The 4N clearly remains king but the Misery can do things other stalkers can't so its an interesting choice to play.

No other Jenner can do what the Oxide does or even come close. That's just a fact and its not acceptable. If the Oxide stays like it is, I won't be surprised to see it get cut out of the tournaments like streakcrows did. If PGI won't balance the game, then MRBC has to step in and do it for them.

[Mavairo]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 24 April 2016 - 12:40 AM, said:

Weren't you just the guy that said we should be comparing mechs based on what they were capable of in and of themselves and not based on gut reactions?

Maybe after that you could put the 100 worst in oxides for a week, followed by commandos for a week....and then compare their performances.

Spoiler alert: There's a reason every 3'rd person uses the oxide, and no one uses commandos.

P.S. If you're going to quote and blow things up.... get the whole sentence and keep it in context rather than trying to cherry pick.

No one with a brain, used Commandos....ever. And that's still the case. Using the Worst Mech In The Game as your baseline for what is good or what sucks, is an invalid comparison by default.

[The Smoking Man]

Jikil, on 25 April 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

No other Jenner can do what the Oxide does or even come close. That's just a fact and its not acceptable.

Not acceptable to you. And I guess I should count those two trolls too... so three people. Let's vote.

[VxSPEC]

That smurfy link has got to be the most paper thin Mech I have ever seen lol, but to compare that is like Krillin to Goku during the cell saga, ok maybe not that dramatic but you get the picture. Someone said earlier about the hitboxes not registering, I have to agree with seeing that, but I'm not going to say its just the oxide, the spider and the locust, and some cases even the wolfhound having a 'Lag shield' its going to be had to fix this because of connection issues. What I want is something of similar tonnage and speed to be able to combat the oxide, that is my problem, because lets face it, most lights have a 'lag shield'

[DrxAbstract]

Jikil, on 25 April 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

I think there has been plenty of evidence from MRBC matches to just what lights are showing up in games. I haven't seen an ember in probably 200 games. But I see Oxides at least once every few matches. Not as much as the Jenner IIC, but you can buy one with cbills and the other with MC.

If PGI wants the opxide to be the best light mech for light brawling. To be the terror of Daishi's and other assaults, I'm fine with that. Many light mechs have been that terror.

But you can't lock something because a paywall and expect us to just accept it.

The Misery is probably the 2nd or 3rd best Stalker. The 4N clearly remains king but the Misery can do things other stalkers can't so its an interesting choice to play.

No other Jenner can do what the Oxide does or even come close. That's just a fact and its not acceptable. If the Oxide stays like it is, I won't be surprised to see it get cut out of the tournaments like streakcrows did. If PGI won't balance the game, then MRBC has to step in and do it for them.

MRBC has rulesets and limitations on dropdecks. It's an indication of absolutely nothing other than what people prefer to use under such restrictions and are directly responsible for the situation they've created because of it. The Ember hasnt been viable in years... That's on PGI. ACHs, Locusts, Ravens, Firestarters, Jenners, Adders, Kitfoxes and even Myst Lynx are represented in Quick Play, to a lesser degree FW... Commando seemingly being the estranged Light family member.

Instead of nerfing the Oxide, despite there being other viable Lights in actual MWO gameplay, why dont we try bringing the other, under-performing Jenners and various Lights up a bit because the ACH, Oxide, Locust and FS9 are bar other Lights should be brought up to, and that bar itself should be raised a bit higher, if you want the Light class in general to continue existing in a manner other than a bad joke. The questions I have yet to see anyone in these discussions ask is:

1. If you didn't have to bring a Light Mech, would you?

2. If MRBC didnt have the restrictions on Streaks and multi-copy dropdecks, which Mechs would you actually see being used?

Oxide isnt OP. It's the 'best' choice under the circumstances, which is not proof of excessive effectiveness nor a valid argument for nerfing it... And yet that's the main argument against it, which is what makes this whole charade laughable and disappointing at the same time as misguided 'comp' players support it anyway... That, though, is proof just because you play in competitions doesnt mean you know what you're talking about.

[Darian DelFord]

Jikil, on 25 April 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

I think there has been plenty of evidence from MRBC matches to just what lights are showing up in games. I haven't seen an ember in probably 200 games. But I see Oxides at least once every few matches. Not as much as the Jenner IIC, but you can buy one with cbills and the other with MC.


But you can't lock something because a paywall and expect us to just accept it.



No other Jenner can do what the Oxide does or even come close. That's just a fact and its not acceptable.

1. The problem with MRBC is for the Drop 1 deck you can not bring Clan Streaks. 1 Jenner IIC with streaks and or Crow would decimate the OXIDES on the other team, just a fact. So you AUTOMATICALLY REMOVE a HARD COUNTER TO ALL LIGHTS. This is where "PART" of the issue is coming from

2. I agree the OXIDE is a strong light and the strongest Jenner and I will never deny that fact. I do not agree that it is in fact locked behind real money as the strongest Jenner. However the OXIDE is right where it needs to be. The other lagging lights need to be brought up a tad. Lights should be feared on the battle field, just like the damn Dire Wolf. However at the moment with the exception of a few, they are a laughing joke

3. I do not agree that no other Jenner can do what the Oxide can. I agree that the Oxide has the easiest time doing it. But the Jenner D with 4 SPL's and 2 x SRM 4's can come pretty damn close, and I have proven that many times, the vids are in my link if you doubt it.

People want their heavies and assaults to be impenetrable from the back, this is why they strip their armor and front load everything. Assaults especially need to understand that a light mech is their nature hunter. Just like mediums hunt lights heavies hunt mediums and assaults hunt heavies. This is the formula PGI has adhered to since launch. I agree with this formula. NO ONE wants to play a mech that continuously gets pounded simply because they are not heavy enough. There is no fun in that. ALL WEIGHT CLASSES SHOULD BE FUN TO PLAY and VIABLE

If I see 2 assaults together I will not attack, if I see an assault actually have a clue on how to fight I will not attack, if I see an assault who is keeping up with his team or his team escorting I will not attack. It is actually very easy to deter a light mech from fighting, it really is.

I personally think the Oxide the Cheetah and lesser extent FS, are the bar that all the other lights need to be brought up to.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 25 April 2016 - 08:53 AM.

[pwnface]

Darian DelFord, on 25 April 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

2. I agree the OXIDE is a strong light and the strongest Jenner and I will never deny that fact. I do not agree that it is in fact locked behind real money as the strongest Jenner. However the OXIDE is right where it needs to be. The other lagging lights need to be brought up a tad. Lights should be feared on the battle field, just like the damn Dire Wolf. However at the moment with the exception of a few, they are a laughing joke

3. I do not agree that no other Jenner can do what the Oxide can. I agree that the Oxide has the easiest time doing it. But the Jenner D with 4 SPL's and 2 x SRM 4's can come pretty damn close, and I have proven that many times, the vids are in my link if you doubt it. .

Just because you don't agree doesn't make it less true.

The Oxide is objectively the strongest Jenner available currently. The vast majority of competent players would agree with this. The Oxide is currently only obtainable with real money.

Based on these observations how can you say that "I do not agree that it is in fact locked behind real money as the strongest Jenner." The Oxide, according to your own assertion, is the strongest Jenner and it is a fact that it is locked behind real money. You are absolutely contradicting yourself.

The JR7-D is not comparable to the Oxide at all. The Oxide is objectively stronger. There is a reason lots of teams are doubling up on Oxides in MRBC and the JR7-D is non-existent. I get that you fancy yourself a great "Jenner pilot" but your bias is clearly showing here.


Is the Oxide OP? Not really, I don't think so. I also don't think it's a good idea for arguably the strongest light mech in the game to be real money purchase only. I'm not gonna cry about it either way though.

Edited by pwnface, 25 April 2016 - 09:05 AM.

[thehiddenedge]

Until PGI has achieved reliable hitreg with SRM's, I'm not going to agree with any argument that the Oxide is OP. It's strong, but in a 1v1 situation, ACH, FS9, WLF, even the JR7-D, can outfight it easily. As an assault hunter it's strong, when it sneaks up on one, but if you pick a fight with a competent assault pilot you're going to die very fast.

[pwnface]

thehiddenedge, on 25 April 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

Until PGI has achieved reliable hitreg with SRM's, I'm not going to agree with any argument that the Oxide is OP. It's strong, but in a 1v1 situation, ACH, FS9, WLF, even the JR7-D, can outfight it easily. As an assault hunter it's strong, when it sneaks up on one, but if you pick a fight with a competent assault pilot you're going to die very fast.

I don't agree with this at all. The raw damage output, heat efficiency, and structure quirks means the Oxide wins the majority of the time. Have you tried this yourself? NS has tested this a few times internally and the Oxide has almost always come out ahead.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pwnface, on 25 April 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

I don't agree with this at all. The raw damage output, heat efficiency, and structure quirks means the Oxide wins the majority of the time. Have you tried this yourself? NS has tested this a few times internally and the Oxide has almost always come out ahead.

As has most comp teams, the Oxide is relatively unmatched in a brawl.

[Gyrok]

thehiddenedge, on 25 April 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

Until PGI has achieved reliable hitreg with SRM's, I'm not going to agree with any argument that the Oxide is OP. It's strong, but in a 1v1 situation, ACH, FS9, WLF, even the JR7-D, can outfight it easily. As an assault hunter it's strong, when it sneaks up on one, but if you pick a fight with a competent assault pilot you're going to die very fast.

When I drive an oxide...I have almost no fear.

I know a bad situation when I see it, and I avoid those...but in a 1v1, I will take the odds against any mech in an oxide, and very rarely will I ever come out on the bottom end.

In fact, last night I ended up in a 2 on 1 against a cicada and a Jenner IIC, and had the Jenner IIC pilot jumped in about 5-8 seconds later than he did, it would have been 2 dead mechs.

[Khobai]

its pretty telling that the only players denying the oxide needs to be nerfed are players that use oxides. Thats usually a good indication something is overpowered... when the only people defending it are the ones abusing it.

it absolutely needs a nerf. at least 5% less srm cooldown. 15% is too much. 10% would be okay.

I think nearly all weapon quirks (particularly range and cooldown) should be capped at 10% because weapons get unbalanced/lopsided when they get bigger bonuses than that.

Edited by Khobai, 25 April 2016 - 09:59 AM.

[pwnface]

Khobai, on 25 April 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

its pretty telling that the only players denying the oxide needs to be nerfed are players that use oxides. Thats usually a good indication something is overpowered... when the only people defending it are the ones abusing it.

it absolutely needs a nerf. at least 5% less srm cooldown. 15% is too much. 10% would be okay.

I think nearly all weapon quirks (particularly range and cooldown) should be capped at 10% because weapons get unbalanced/lopsided when they get bigger bonuses than that.

Honestly, I think removing some of the structure quirks would be enough. I don't care that it hits so hard it just shouldn't be one of the tankiest lights on top of having a big bang.

[Khobai]

Quote

Honestly, I think removing some of the structure quirks would be enough. I don't care that it hits so hard it just shouldn't be one of the tankiest lights on top of having a big bang.

Thats another possibility. Either/Or.

But I would still like to see some consistency for weapon quirks in having them all capped at 10% to avoid future problems.

[Scout Derek]

pwnface, on 25 April 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

Honestly, I think removing some of the structure quirks would be enough. I don't care that it hits so hard it just shouldn't be one of the tankiest lights on top of having a big bang.

I think they should be lowered, if it is ever considered toning them down a bit.

Although arguably enough a reason why it may have structure quirks is because it's ammo based and no Jump Jets, however I think it would make more sense to add a new ammo quirk to replace the structure quirks and the CD on it, figuratively speaking if we were to remove them, though I'm against changing it entirely, but not against changing for leagues.

[Cy Mitchell]

Darian DelFord, on 23 April 2016 - 08:00 PM, said:

SNIP Don't nerf my Oxide justification.

I am sorry but anytime someone goes to these lengths to argue that a Mech should not be adjusted then it just leads me to believe that it is too strong, you know it is too strong and you really hope it stays too strong so you won't have to find a new toy to play with.

Edited by Rampage, 25 April 2016 - 10:24 AM.

[Jikil]

Darian DelFord, on 25 April 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

1. The problem with MRBC is for the Drop 1 deck you can not bring Clan Streaks. 1 Jenner IIC with streaks and or Crow would decimate the OXIDES on the other team, just a fact. So you AUTOMATICALLY REMOVE a HARD COUNTER TO ALL LIGHTS. This is where "PART" of the issue is coming from

MRBC wanted more interesting matches and every single team last season used a streakcrow, which in that circumstance can make up more than 50% of the power in a light/medium brawl.

Darian DelFord, on 25 April 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

2. I agree the OXIDE is a strong light and the strongest Jenner and I will never deny that fact. I do not agree that it is in fact locked behind real money as the strongest Jenner. However the OXIDE is right where it needs to be. The other lagging lights need to be brought up a tad. Lights should be feared on the battle field, just like the damn Dire Wolf. However at the moment with the exception of a few, they are a laughing joke

Bringing up all the lights to being OP is only going to lead to more powercreep. Every game that does this ends up with ridiculous levels of power creep, because now the other classes have to be quirked twice as much to keep up with light mechs.

Darian DelFord, on 25 April 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

3. I do not agree that no other Jenner can do what the Oxide can. I agree that the Oxide has the easiest time doing it. But the Jenner D with 4 SPL's and 2 x SRM 4's can come pretty damn close, and I have proven that many times, the vids are in my link if you doubt it.

I'm not doubting your pilot skill, but personal vidoes don't account as solid evidence other than you had some fabulous matches in your Jenner.

I got 6 kills in a 3 AMS kitfox, and no one is going to say those are OP by any stretch.

Darian DelFord, on 25 April 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

People want their heavies and assaults to be impenetrable from the back, this is why they strip their armor and front load everything. Assaults especially need to understand that a light mech is their nature hunter. Just like mediums hunt lights heavies hunt mediums and assaults hunt heavies. This is the formula PGI has adhered to since launch. I agree with this formula. NO ONE wants to play a mech that continuously gets pounded simply because they are not heavy enough. There is no fun in that. ALL WEIGHT CLASSES SHOULD BE FUN TO PLAY and VIABLE

I brawl pretty well with Jenners in my assault but its hard when they literally have the same dps as an atlas does but the mobility to also use it. Aside from streak mediums, mediums don't really counter light mechs, only focus fire does. Or maybe a better light mech pilot on your team.

Darian DelFord, on 25 April 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

If I see 2 assaults together I will not attack, if I see an assault actually have a clue on how to fight I will not attack, if I see an assault who is keeping up with his team or his team escorting I will not attack. It is actually very easy to deter a light mech from fighting, it really is.

So I should just hide with my Daishi buddy and live in constant fear that an oxide might find me?

Darian DelFord, on 25 April 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

I personally think the Oxide the Cheetah and lesser extent FS, are the bar that all the other lights need to be brought up to.

Again thats just more powercreep, which is not good for the game. The tallest nail gets hammered down, and that nail is the Oxide. If you want to make a case for other mechs needing changes thats fine but they are independent of the oxide.

[pwnface]

Scout Derek, on 25 April 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

I think they should be lowered, if it is ever considered toning them down a bit.

Although arguably enough a reason why it may have structure quirks is because it's ammo based and no Jump Jets, however I think it would make more sense to add a new ammo quirk to replace the structure quirks and the CD on it, figuratively speaking if we were to remove them, though I'm against changing it entirely, but not against changing for leagues.

By remove I meant remove some structure quirk points not remove entirely. Sorry for being unclear.

[Scout Derek]

pwnface, on 25 April 2016 - 10:39 AM, said:

By remove I meant remove some structure quirk points not remove entirely. Sorry for being unclear.

Ahh okay, I thought you wanted to remove them all.