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#121 Deathlike

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 05:16 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2016 - 06:44 AM, said:

I lol'd, tactics aren't any deeper in stock mechs than they are in full custom, I'm definitely calling BS on that. If there were an actual league centered around stock 3025, I guarantee it would be broken down and simplified to a central meta and typical strats just like any other version of this game so far.


IIRC back in even stock leagues in MW3+MW4, people did still gravitate towards the most optimal stock mechs.

The delusion that is "if I limit people with this, these tryhards would be screwed" is pretty sad.

For instance, what good stock non-Champion mechs exists in the game? If such a thing exists (they do, but are far and few in between), would that not literally flood a stock only queue?

I don't enjoy stock... mostly because most of the builds are garbage. What are you supposed to learn by doing stock other than reminding people that SHS suck? Bad builds are still bad builds?

Heck, I bet there would be some people recommending all the optimal stock mechs so people wouldn't suffer with their cadet bonus (Stormcrow-Prime being one of them).


Stock is already a niche within a niche game, so trying to convince people to go back to a flawed system (stock trial mechs before MWO's official launch - not the Steam launch) is like trying to torture people into something far less enjoyable for the majority.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 April 2016 - 05:16 PM.


#122 Jaeger Gonzo

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 05:32 PM

View PostMarmon Rzohr, on 28 April 2016 - 06:24 AM, said:


So where do you feel the difference comes from if it's stock mechs only ?

P.S. I'm not asking about whether it's fun or not (I understand the fun appeal perfectly, I like lots of different weapons to manage and all that myself), but in what way do you think 3025 restrictions contribute to the game being more tactically involving.


Lets say I see there two main levels of tactics involved. First the team level, other one personal managing of your mek and approaching to the opfor mek.

One of Stock game play signatures is slower Time To Kill. That alone provide much more tactics involved. In main stream Full Custom TTK was dropping progressively since closed beta. In the effect even simple hammer&anvil tactics do not work anymore as used too, anvil will fall in 20 seconds, long before hammer will come.
Longer TTK gives unit time to react to the enemy moves and vice versa, react to react and go on. With this super fast TTK the only tactic that really work is death ball, team that push harder and concentrate on one point stomp win, many time games are finished in like what? 3min no longer, I fell like I start match and the game is over before even I get to the front line, if I`m unlucky in some slower mek, game and TTK is that fast.
In Stock we discovered that longer TTK gives overall far more options in game, flank, react to flank, retreat, stand, push, making fire lines, retreat to cool off and go on. In Full Custom commander have a time to give maybe 2-3 orders other then targets and that`s it, game over, win or loss.

The other layer of tactics is personal.
Piloting your mek in Stock is more demanding for several reasons. You need to watch and preserve your heat more closely in Stock, as we got only single heat sinks. Many times you will simply not be able to continue shooting be cause of heat, that lead to other tactics layer, sometimes it is wise to hold a push to simply cool off, or ask your wing partner to cover you while you cooling off, you need to choose what weapon system use in particular case, as most Stock builds have quiet mixed armament, you simply can`t just spam alphas from everything you got as you are used to.
You need to watch and reserve your ammo, in Stock you are not going to spam LRMs or ACs as you are used to, in Stock every shot counts. And I mean EVERY.
Other layer is that you are not choosing mek, in matter of fact the mek is choosing you. As any given mek have its strong and weak points in design and by that, different and distinct playing style. You can`t fit a mek to your playing style, but the playing style TO the mek. I`m hope I am clear enough here. That is one of the strongest Stock signatures, every mek is different and offer distinct interesting game experience. In the main, people ask "what is the point of bringing new meks? this mek will add nothing to the game", like just now in Cyclops thread. That would never happen in Stock. In Stock every mek bring and offer something new to the experience.
In Stock you need to better understand you mek design, hes strong and weak points and style in which that particular mek is more effective. But what is maybe more interesting and what is almost absent completely in main, is that you need to know enemy mek as well, and play it to hes weakness. Everything counts: knowledge about enemy mek speed, armament range, armor, armor placement, even number of ammo tons and placing location.
Something other worth mentioning is that your tanking skill matter more in Stock, as no one will kill your CT in the two alphas, so with little skill you can spread far more damage, no one is capable of putting constantly more then 20 pin point damage on you.

So yeah, I think that explanation can somehow put little light on question why Stock Mode have so many fans and why we want it in. On the side of clear awesomeness of play Classic BattleTech designs from our teenage nostalgia as they were supposed to be played.

#123 Jaeger Gonzo

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 05:39 PM

View Postpwnface, on 28 April 2016 - 04:33 PM, said:


I also know you were part of 9th Sword and have played with you on several occasions, I don't really think you are a particularly standout player. (unless you were in stock mechs every time I played with you then I'm slightly impressed)

I was actually best pilot of 9SD while I was playing there.

#124 Y E O N N E

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 05:51 PM

Increased TTK doesn't change the tactics, it just compresses the time-scale of the game.

Conserving heat? Immensely important in full-custom. We had a scrim last night and we had to remind people to only take guaranteed shots that are dealing max damage so that they could conserve their heat for the inevitable enemy push. Every point counts, and makes the difference between taking some mitigated damage versus being killed from one shot to the rear as you shut down. We stack double cool-shots frequently...because it's absolutely necessary when it's go-time.

Nobody spams SRMs or ACs in comp, because you never know if you might be the last man standing with a chance to win it. I've seen games lost because Oxides ran out of ammo. And believe you me, they were not missing shots.

In full custom, there are still specific 'Mechs good at specific roles. It's just that where custom is all about hard-points, hard-point locations, hit-boxes, and quirks, stock 'Mechs also throws locked equipment into the mix. The only effect that has is changing which 'Mech is best in a particular role, but it doesn't remove those roles and it doesn't remove the fact that there is still an optimum choice for each role.

Knowledge on the enemy is just as necessary in full-custom. Without that intel, you can't possibly mount an effective strategy.

And as a disclaimer, I did play Stock 'Mech Mondays for a bit. It was fun. But it also wasn't any more or less involved than full-custom. I will say that the Custom games require more individual skill, though, because the compressed time-scale forces you to be faster and more accurate with everything you do. Way less margin for error.

Also...I've seen custom games dragged on for most of the timer, so compressed time-scale is not the same as faster games. Go watch some MRBC scrims. Hell, the March Lords vs. AS scrim on Viridian Bog was pretty intense in this regard.

#125 jaxjace

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 06:28 PM

Back because thread grew to 7 pages, shifted to a back and forth argument of stock mode, and here i am.

stock mode would be ****, there are numerous mechs that are flat out better stock than other mechs. Just one that comes to mind right off the bat is the marauder. Your stock cicada is ****, dont make it sound like its viable even in stock mode because its not.

The reason stock mode would be just as imbalanced as custom is that there is a problem with weapon balance. There would be just as many useless mechs in that mode if not more. Hell we already have less than 20 mechs that are worth bringing NOW.

#126 Crotch RockIt

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 06:37 PM

I played Stock Mech Mondays back in the day. It was a fun, dynamic style of play, and I hope that some day Russ will put a Stock button in private lobbies.

That said, it's not any more or less balanced than full customization. It's just a different, fun playing experience.

#127 pwnface

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 09:36 PM

View PostJaeger Gonzo, on 28 April 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

I was actually best pilot of 9SD while I was playing there.


It's funny that you think so highly of yourself.

#128 pwnface

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 09:39 PM

View PostJaeger Gonzo, on 28 April 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

With this super fast TTK the only tactic that really work is death ball, team that push harder and concentrate on one point stomp win, many time games are finished in like what? 3min no longer, I fell like I start match and the game is over before even I get to the front line, if I`m unlucky in some slower mek, game and TTK is that fast.


Just by saying this you are exposing that you have absolutely no experience with competitive play and really have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to tactics or balance.

Edited by pwnface, 28 April 2016 - 10:05 PM.


#129 Jaeger Gonzo

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 08:32 AM

View Postpwnface, on 28 April 2016 - 09:36 PM, said:


It's funny that you think so highly of yourself.

Ask Dremnon maybe? What ever ha can said about me, at this aspect is quiet obvious.

View Postpwnface, on 28 April 2016 - 09:39 PM, said:


Just by saying this you are exposing that you have absolutely no experience with competitive play and really have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to tactics or balance.

Pre Team games can dure longer be cause team camp and watch more closely before push, but when real fight begins is faster then main everyday game in aspect of duration, and in team games is real faster as there is far more fire concentration, so meks fall in no time. If you say that real fight in team organized can dure longer then that, the one that have no idea is you. Besides what % of players do esport thing? And what really that have to do with everyday game here?

#130 pwnface

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 12:17 PM

View PostJaeger Gonzo, on 29 April 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

Ask Dremnon maybe? What ever ha can said about me, at this aspect is quiet obvious.


I don't have to ask Dremnon, I've played with you personally and have seen your skill level.

Conreg and Mighty Wings, both former 9th pilots now in NS, are better than you IMO. Mastachang when active, was better than you as well, but yeah if you think you are the best you keep living that dream buddy.

Edited by pwnface, 29 April 2016 - 12:40 PM.


#131 Death Proof

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 12:48 PM

I like this game and have no major problems with it; It's basically all I expect from a mech-themed game.

When I get bored with a game I walk away and don't think of it ever again. I haven't gotten to that point in the several years I've been playing this game.

Until a better mech-themed game comes along, I'll be staying.

#132 Jaeger Gonzo

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 02:19 PM

View Postpwnface, on 29 April 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

I don't have to ask Dremnon, I've played with you personally and have seen your skill level.

Conreg and Mighty Wings, both former 9th pilots now in NS, are better than you IMO. Mastachang when active, was better than you as well, but yeah if you think you are the best you keep living that dream buddy.

LOL, yeah. Specially with Mighty LOOL.
You on the other hand are lost in crowd as I don`t remember even one play with you.
Now you can blabla, but when I was 9SD, it was quiet agreed around that I`m best with Wako, which I beat several times.
So yeah keep dreaming.

#133 Y E O N N E

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 02:26 PM

View PostJaeger Gonzo, on 29 April 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

LOL, yeah. Specially with Mighty LOOL.
You on the other hand are lost in crowd as I don`t remember even one play with you.
Now you can blabla, but when I was 9SD, it was quiet agreed around that I`m best with Wako, which I beat several times.
So yeah keep dreaming.


You do realize you are speaking about something that happened in the past, right?

#134 pwnface

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 05:13 PM

View PostJaeger Gonzo, on 29 April 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

LOL, yeah. Specially with Mighty LOOL.
You on the other hand are lost in crowd as I don`t remember even one play with you.
Now you can blabla, but when I was 9SD, it was quiet agreed around that I`m best with Wako, which I beat several times.
So yeah keep dreaming.


Well I'm going to let you have this thread where you keep trying to convince yourself that you are the best player and hope you continue to enjoy the stock mech mode which isn't coming. Enjoy!

#135 jaxjace

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 01:30 PM

View PostJaeger Gonzo, on 29 April 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

LOL, yeah. Specially with Mighty LOOL.
You on the other hand are lost in crowd as I don`t remember even one play with you.
Now you can blabla, but when I was 9SD, it was quiet agreed around that I`m best with Wako, which I beat several times.
So yeah keep dreaming.


I think you might want to ask around about Pwnface before you start thinking you are hot ****.

#136 Marmon Rzohr

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 02:14 PM

View PostGRiPSViGiL, on 28 April 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

People always like to think things are this way by over complicating when keeping it simple is often most efficient and best effective. Which is why meta is meta. You can choose to make it complicated but we all know this game is not "tactical" like you say or want it to be in terms of depth. Which is why you do not see team in high level comp deviate much if at all from the things that are most efficient and effective.

Stop trying to act like this game of checkers is chess.


The meta does not describe a single strategy or superior build that wins every time, but rather a system that defines the established strategies and builds and the relationships between them. There is no "one winning strat" but there are several potent ones that work out depending on how and when you execute, how well you read what the enemy is doing and what sort of builds are involved on either side.

This is where the complexity and depth come from.

You can even see it while PUG-ing. If you try really hard you have to constantly think about what is going on, what sort of guns and mechs you are facing, where to apply pressure, what parts of the map you need to control to win the game etc. I'd say that's tactical gameplay.

Though it could (and really should by now -.-) be much, much better.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 02 May 2016 - 02:16 PM.






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