222 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Morggo, on 26 April 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

I know several of us keep droning on about it, but it's just frustrating to keep reading how "stupid" we solo's are .. oh, and "just join a unit and/or faction". We looked for an equitable solution so both sides win, the anti-solo crowd however see only their way (join a unit) as the solution. Opposite of compromise and solution.

Out of curiosity, what exactly were you looking for?


I'll admit, I have zero sympathy for soloists in Faction warfare in a team game. They drag everyone down when facing a team.
Solos will never work as well with their team mates as people in a group, or especially people in a unit. It simply doesn't work. (Instant communication, prior willingness to work as a team, complementary builds, etc...)

It wouldn't bother me so much, except the solos do an amazing job of randomizing the results for the organized teams. (The people actually trying to play the map.)

I fail to see why joining a unit is such a travesty.
Apparently, Solos think joining a unit is some massive commitment requiring you to be there all the time, do some stupid paperwork for some "Sergeant Star Commander Useless III" and while there are units that are like that- there are also units that are just chilled out people who show up and play, organize teams and go do things.



From my perspective over here- it looks like the the solos just want to play their FW match however they want, even though they get roflstomped and ***** about it, and at the same time, screw over the people organizing and making an earnest attempt to change the map.
It's the MWO equivalent of that random ****brick the coach foists on your team who just does their own thing, costs you the game, and then *****es about how they lose all the time.

There is a reason they don't allow some random kid off the street to jump into a college football or basketball game.

[Livewyr]

Omaha, on 26 April 2016 - 03:28 AM, said:

Still do not understand, why only units get rewarded for having planets....... Seriously, a unit does not make up an entire faction.

Umm, because it's a team game, and factions are made up of units.


Other than that, I suppose there is no reason to support units in a unit based team game.

[Jables McBarty]

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

Out of curiosity, what exactly were you looking for?

I believe the answer to that question would be:

1. Don't get rid of solo queue.
2. Don't make Freelancer the worst in terms of rewards.

You and Morggo are on the same side here--you hate solos, he doesn't want to solo with you. Solo queue was a win-win, but other conditions (rewards structure) ruined it.

[MrKvola]

A lot of "solo player" salt.

What I do not understand is:
Why do you push solo play in a team based game. In a game mode with team objectives. That is driven by community decisions.

How is it even fun without coordination? Just drop and wait out which side gets a better sum total of skill and 'mechs combined, let random chance decide who wins?

Makes a bit sense perhaps in a 5-minute QP match. FW is designed with groups in mind since it's inception, that is why units were created after all. And if you still want to solo in FW, you are better off in scouting mode anyway. At least the match is shorter in case you get crap teammates/pro opposition.

There are lots of casual units. The difference between being in one and solo pugging is that it is much easier to actually team up, coordinate and possibly score a win. Little to no real devotion and contribution is usually required except for logging in here and there and playing. If you want to run with the top dogs, well that is usually a completely different story.

If you are so antisocial that you are against socializing this way, why even play a game, that is built around teams?

[Jables McBarty]

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

I fail to see why joining a unit is such a travesty.
Apparently, Solos think joining a unit is some massive commitment requiring you to be there all the time, do some stupid paperwork for some "Sergeant Star Commander Useless III" and while there are units that are like that- there are also units that are just chilled out people who show up and play, organize teams and go do things.

So you are saying that the social interface is easy to use, intuitive, or even sufficient?

I'll pose a scenario:
1. I play a solo pug game with a solo pugger who is in [UNIT]
2. Solo pugger from [UNIT] and I get along.
3. He sends me a unit invite.
4. I join the unit.

That's the only way a solo player can join a unit without spending time on forums, on TS, whatever. That's the time commitment I'm talking about.

[Livewyr]

Jables McBarty, on 26 April 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

You and Morggo are on the same side here--you hate solos, he doesn't want to solo with you. Solo queue was a win-win, but other conditions (rewards structure) ruined it.

We would be, if solo fights had their own map to randomize... but since solo queue fights still change everyone's planetary assets, we are most definitely: Not on the same side.

[Livewyr]

Jables McBarty, on 26 April 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

So you are saying that the social interface is easy to use, intuitive, or even sufficient?

I'll pose a scenario:
1. I play a solo pug game with a solo pugger who is in [UNIT]
2. Solo pugger from [UNIT] and I get along.
3. He sends me a unit invite.
4. I join the unit.

That's the only way a solo player can join a unit without spending time on forums, on TS, whatever. That's the time commitment I'm talking about.

Yeah, I mean, it's not like we have faction lobbies and stuff where people could ask about units.

Although, they could definitely do with a lobby for recruitment, and a more intuitive access to units.

[Taffer]

That is very disappointing. So much for FW, I'm going back to quick play. I was really getting into it too. Spent a couple hours messing with my drop deck even. Now I don't give a ****. I'm not going back to that. The very reason I quit CW/FW is because getting rekt by big groups is not fun at all. Seeing the tags and knowing you are about to get spawn camped is lame and a waste of time. Likewise when you are on the good team, just feel sorry for the team that gets matched with hopeless odds. I guess it's hilarious and a great way to get easy rewards when you are a big/good unit.


Always loved the pug matches though, unpredictable. I imagined solo FW as a way to get only pug matches. And it was, and it was cool. Thanks for taking it away without giving it a chance. No event to draw people in, giving people more incentive to play non-solo with extra rewards for 1 man units. The **** were you thinking? What about people who weren't even around for a week? They didn't even get a chance to see it. Why not just leave it and fix it?


ONE WEEK!


What was the point of all that? Like just a couple days after you implemented it I heard it was being removed. Now just a week later you are removing it. Wtf man, you guys have no clue, no real plan or anything for this mode. You are just ******** it out as you go along. CW/FW was supposed to be the main MWO mode and you clearly never had an actual plan for it. Do you think casuals like getting rekt all the time? Why is it even possible? Why are they allowed to drop as ONE person in a hardcore GROUP based mode? They are SUPPOSED to be cannon fodder?


Remember when quick play didn't have a solo queue? So you wanted to make a hardcore niche game? You may as well remove the solo quick play. PLEASE I ******* DARE YOU. Remove solo quick play, please


I can actually group with a friend or two in games like War Thunder and we get a fair match with a like-sized group, the rest filled with solos or other like-sized groups on both sides. If they made us play against a whole clan we would never bother. I wanna play your game with 1 or 2 casual friends and we go straight to tier one and can face a 12man shitstorm.You ever join a server in battlefield and see one clan stacked on one team just annihilating an entire team of pugs against them? We just DC, nobody wants that. Well....apparently there are some masochists out there, or just people who don't know better.



Please consider removing the solo quick play queue as well. I WOULD JUST LOVE to see how that turns out. PLEASE

Edited by Taffer, 26 April 2016 - 09:20 AM.

[Morggo]

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

Out of curiosity, what exactly were you looking for?

Well, since you are asking me I can give you my personal answer (which may be very different reasons other soloists persist in our argument).

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

I'll admit, I have zero sympathy for soloists in Faction warfare in a team game. They drag everyone down when facing a team.

Ummm, exactly. I agree which is why solo's were supposed to be moved out of Unit... to improve your quality of game and let us "ruin" our FW map, as you essentially framed it. We don't want to be in your queue botching up your carefully planned tactics and such.

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

Solos will never work as well with their team mates as people in a group, or especially people in a unit. It simply doesn't work. (Instant communication, prior willingness to work as a team, complementary builds, etc...)

Well, we'll agree to disagree. Again I've had loads of fun the better part of the last year pugging and seeing great teamwork emerge from a random group. True, not your definition of 'great teamwork' but teamwork and fun none-the-less.

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

It wouldn't bother me so much, except the solos do an amazing job of randomizing the results for the organized teams. (The people actually trying to play the map.)

Again, see the part where we don't want to be in your map.

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

I fail to see why joining a unit is such a travesty.
Apparently, Solos think joining a unit is some massive commitment requiring you to be there all the time, do some stupid paperwork for some "Sergeant Star Commander Useless III" and while there are units that are like that- there are also units that are just chilled out people who show up and play, organize teams and go do things.

I don't see it as a travesty. I see it (again here I am speaking personally since you asked) as my preference. I'm a huge introvert. Don't like to be in big open touchy feely social situations. There is a "filter" or "wall" in the pug game that just makes me much more comfortable and able to enjoy dropping with people without all the "socialness" to it. I do play with 7 or 8 others in my group. Many of us are similar, couple are very outgoing. All of us have known each other for 15+ years outside of MWO. Those of you who are introverts understand the difference there and having a few close friends you DO like to socialize with. Joining a unit... meh, perhaps some day, maybe I'll find a few people here or in game and eventually make the leap. Never say never but it'd be a leap.

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

From my perspective over here- it looks like the the solos just want to play their FW match however they want, even though they get roflstomped and ***** about it, and at the same time, screw over the people organizing and making an earnest attempt to change the map.

Yep! *ding* *ding* We have a winner! We DO want to play our FW however we want... against other solo pilots just like in our Pug games! Finally we are on the same page... only... we just lost that and now you get us back into your maps, ruining your matches. Funny that.


TLDR;

You ask what I expected/wanted in a solo queue?
I would like the ability to experience the FW maps. Give the "limited-respawn" action of a drop deck some use for all those weight classes I mastered just for the purpose of building a working deck.
I would like to have the chance to do pug drops with other puggers on the cool FW maps and have the chance to pull together and have fun.

[Livewyr]

Taffer, on 26 April 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

Please consider removing the solo quick play queue as well. I WOULD JUST LOVE to see how that turns out. PLEASE

Well, at least in quickplay, you can solo until your heart's content- and not screw up the efforts of those "evil teams" reking your face in their drive to move the map in some way.

Quickplay is inconsequential outside of the match, so go forth and randomize those, you'll have no complaint from me.

Morggo, on 26 April 2016 - 09:18 AM, said:

Well, since you are asking me I can give you my personal answer (which may be very different reasons other soloists persist in our argument).



Ummm, exactly. I agree which is why solo's were supposed to be moved out of Unit... to improve your quality of game and let us "ruin" our FW map, as you essentially framed it. We don't want to be in your queue botching up your carefully planned tactics and such.



Well, we'll agree to disagree. Again I've had loads of fun the better part of the last year pugging and seeing great teamwork emerge from a random group. True, not your definition of 'great teamwork' but teamwork and fun none-the-less.



Again, see the part where we don't want to be in your map.



I don't see it as a travesty. I see it (again here I am speaking personally since you asked) as my preference. I'm a huge introvert. Don't like to be in big open touchy feely social situations. There is a "filter" or "wall" in the pug game that just makes me much more comfortable and able to enjoy dropping with people without all the "socialness" to it. I do play with 7 or 8 others in my group. Many of us are similar, couple are very outgoing. All of us have known each other for 15+ years outside of MWO. Those of you who are introverts understand the difference there and having a few close friends you DO like to socialize with. Joining a unit... meh, perhaps some day, maybe I'll find a few people here or in game and eventually make the leap. Never say never but it'd be a leap.



Yep! *ding* *ding* We have a winner! We DO want to play our FW however we want... against other solo pilots just like in our Pug games! Finally we are on the same page... only... we just lost that and now you get us back into your maps, ruining your matches. Funny that.


TLDR;

You ask what I expected/wanted in a solo queue?
I would like the ability to experience the FW maps. Give the "limited-respawn" action of a drop deck some use for all those weight classes I mastered just for the purpose of building a working deck.
I would like to have the chance to do pug drops with other puggers on the cool FW maps and have the chance to pull together and have fun.

Except, while solos weren't in the same matches... their matches were affecting the map of the Inner Sphere.
It was no better than having hem combined.

[Taffer]

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Well, at least in quickplay, you can solo until your heart's content- and not screw up the efforts of those "evil teams" reking your face in their drive to move the map in some way.

Quickplay is inconsequential outside of the match, so go forth and randomize those, you'll have no complaint from me.



Except, while solos weren't in the same matches... their matches were affecting the map of the Inner Sphere.
It was no better than having hem combined.

But it's a team based game! Why is there a solo queue at all?

[Fobhopper]

PGI, I am really disappointed to read the merging of queues. I have been here since closed beta. Bought most of your mech packages and supported you in forums in other places. I remember the disappointment of Clan Warfare 1. Dismayed at the disappointment of 'seal clubbing' that Clan Warfare 2 became. And finally Faction Warfare 3 arrives after almost a year of us complaining about the pug vs unit stomping, and you want to revert the changes barely after a week of patching.

DONT!

This is (mostly) what your playerbase wanted. The only problem is that free-lancers literally have no incentive to play because the rewards are utter dogshit. And freelancers can only join if requests are made, which already limits the playerbase to those who are already invested in playing FW either as a solo loyalist, a unit doing drops, or solo merc units and actual merc units.

First off; You want to fix the queues, remove freelancer option entirely, and just have Mercenary and Loyalist careers. Have people be solo mercenary's from the get-go, and then if they want, they can become UNIT mercenaries. Then you have solo loyalist players, and then Unit loyalist players. That will help fix queue times, because if you actually want to play faction warfare, you literally have to go merc and create a unit tag (just for yourself) in order to actually look at the battles going on and choose the battlefield YOU want to fight on. Just remove the Freelance career, and allow merc players to play without making a unit and you will have a lot more people jumping into FW. If you read the forums (particularly new player section) a lot of people refuse to even jump into FW because they have to create a unit before they can even get into match making, and because of that they refuse. You can been a freelance merc, who can drop with anyone, OR you can be a contracted merc (like it is right now) for extra rewards for fighting for a faction.

Simply making the careers either Mercenary solo or Loyalist solo, Merc unit and Loyalist unit will appease most of the people.

Second, a lot of people have been waiting for all the bugs (there have been a lot of them, especially drop decks CONSTANTLY changing every goddamn drop, regardless of whether its scouting or invasion) to get taken care of before they get into the game mode.

Third, DO A FACTION WARFARE EVENT TO GET PLAYERS INTERESTED IN FW! Faction Warfare rarely gets any events as it is, to delay the event you already had planned, and then tell us you want to merge the queues BEFORE you are even finished with catching bugs and doing an event is a disservice to your players. It tells us you have no confidence in US. You are the ones who need to show there is reason to trust you, we have literally spent years trying to trust you, cant you at least give us the same respect?

Fourth, add the 2 last clans that did the invading during this time period. Clan Nova Cat and Clan Steel Viper. This will distribute the clan players out a little more (since there are only 4 factions, its easier to ball up more players into there when there should be more competition happening between clanners fighting clanners). Giving 6 vs 6 faction will help prevent Clan Wolf from just devouring everything like they have the last 2 clan warfare events.

Seriously PGI, dont merge the queues. Yeah there might not be as many players as expected jumping into FW, but we like what we have. We have communities of players building up because of how small the populations are. People are starting to develop reputations (if they didnt have them already) because of how tight knit the Scouting and Invasion communities are. I am actually starting to recognize and learn the players I am playing with/against. WE LIKE SCOUTING MISSIONS, we like how people are actually giving a damn about the planets they take, the people they play with, and the consequences. We actually like this and for the first time it feels like you guys are taking the steps in the right direction in this game instead of just treading water to barely appease us.

Taffer, on 26 April 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

But it's a team based game! Why is there a solo queue at all?

Because we want to support the factions we grew to love and care a bout, but for whatever reason dont have the time to fully dedicate to a unit, but still want to support your faction. Or to at least get rewards like MechBays (one of the major reasons players dropped out of factions so they could get merc rewards and then jump back into their faction to get faction rewards).

I personally LOVE playing faction warfare, even as a soloist merc. I like scouting, I like invasion. And while the wait times can suck, I enjoy the community thats based around FW. I just cant always commit to a dedicated 'raid' schedule because I have a demanding life and needy wife. That doesnt remove the fact that I dont want to play FW, it just means I cant fully dedicate myself to a unit, but I still enjoy the challenging competition that FW provides that you literally cannot get in quickplay because there is no quickplay equivalent to doing a 48vs48 mech drop. Just because I cant drop in for 6 hours to try and take a planet for my unit doesn't mean I shouldn't be ignored/refused the right to play Faction Warfare.

Edited by Fobhopper, 26 April 2016 - 09:38 AM.

[Jables McBarty]

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Except, while solos weren't in the same matches... their matches were affecting the map of the Inner Sphere.
It was no better than having hem combined.

So argue for a separate map!

Frankly I don't know why anybody is arguing with you anymore--the stance that you are advocating (whether intentional or not) is "play the game the way I want to play it or gtfo."

There are ways to make the solo crowd happy without saying "jion group git gud" or "y pley team game if no tem?"

Taffer, on 26 April 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

But it's a team based game! Why is there a solo queue at all?

So you can get matched with other people to make a team!

[Livewyr]

Taffer, on 26 April 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

But it's a team based game! Why is there a solo queue at all?

Because some people just want to play stompy robots and not be a part of a larger force. That's fine. I have no problem with that. (Sometimes I feel antisocial too.)

They should have a place to go and do their anti-social thing, where the only people they screw over (if anyone) is the other 11 players on their team, and only for 15 minutes at a maximum.

Solo play in consequential games are just fine with me.

[Morggo]

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Except, while solos weren't in the same matches... their matches were affecting the map of the Inner Sphere.
It was no better than having hem combined.

Cool, so why not just leave the solo queue, disconnect it from influencing the map, and turn on the rewards for us? Maybe other solo desiring people want to influence the map and play solo.. dunno and can't speak for them. However, what I would want to get out of dipping my foot into FW is more the play and mode features than the Lore affecting side of it (again, personal view point).

If it's easier to swallow, look at it like a new mode for Puglandia then. Give us your maps. Give us your limited respawn drop deck. Put it into our rotation of pug drops.
Turn us lose and forget about us. (well, your wait times may go up without the seals to club but we never liked being fodder anyway)

[Livewyr]

Jables McBarty, on 26 April 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

Frankly I don't know why anybody is arguing with you anymore--the stance that you are advocating (whether intentional or not) is "play the game the way I want to play it or gtfo."

"Don't screw over other people in a team based game mode when it actually counts for something beyond the match."

Fixed that for you.

[Cy Mitchell]

Now that most the changes that were implemented in the "much awaited" FW Phase 3 are being reverted or just abandoned after one whole week of play and we are going back to solo players vs units, I think I have found the perfect solution for one of the only surviving features of Phase 3 ie. the Long Tom.

Give the solo PUG players exclusive access to the Long Tom. Maybe that will even the playing field with the 12 man units a bit.

You know, kind of like arming the baby seals with nukes.

[Livewyr]

Morggo, on 26 April 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

Cool, so why not just leave the solo queue, disconnect it from influencing the map, and turn on the rewards for us? Maybe other solo desiring people want to influence the map and play solo.. dunno and can't speak for them. However, what I would want to get out of dipping my foot into FW is more the play and mode features than the Lore affecting side of it (again, personal view point).

If it's easier to swallow, look at it like a new mode for Puglandia then. Give us your maps. Give us your limited respawn drop deck. Put it into our rotation of pug drops.
Turn us lose and forget about us. (well, your wait times may go up without the seals to club but we never liked being fodder anyway)

I'd be okay with that.

Just leave the real rewards (LP, MC, etc..) to the teams.


(Although given that the solos number didn't warrant keeping it- not sure how much of a loss it would be. )

Edited by Livewyr, 26 April 2016 - 09:34 AM.

[Fastwind]

Morggo, on 26 April 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

But... again, what nearly every pro-unit/anti-solo queue person keeps ignoring when they happily point out "what'd you expect in the solo queue quit crying" when they discuss the long wait times and lack of population in the solo queue.. there was no incentive or reason or reward for playing truly solo/freelancer! Had there been I feel reasonably good saying it would have been much more populated. Instead, we got a rigged system built for obsolescence to be able to stand up and say "well, we gave solo's what they wanted and they ignored/ruined/pick a failmode it so heck with them we'll take it away and push them back into the mode they wanted to get out of... here's your ticket to premades.

I enjoy a challenge. I enjoy a great pug game when 12 strangers pull together, coordinate on the fly, and do well.. even in a loss but even better in a win. You guys don't get it, I see that. But there IS just as much "team play" in that as your Units. You can say "that never happens in Pug". Can't comment on your games, but I just know that I have plenty of pugs that work well together. Sure, there are also collossil fails, but meh, happens and I'm okay with that... Some would argue there's more feeling of accomplishment given the challenge. I see similar happening in a true FW solo... just we'd also get to play in the 'rest of the game' and get rewarded for it too.

I know several of us keep droning on about it, but it's just frustrating to keep reading how "stupid" we solo's are .. oh, and "just join a unit and/or faction". We looked for an equitable solution so both sides win, the anti-solo crowd however see only their way (join a unit) as the solution. Opposite of compromise and solution.

^^ THIS

[Taffer]

Jables McBarty, on 26 April 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

So you can get matched with other people to make a team!

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

Because some people just want to play stompy robots and not be a part of a larger force. That's fine. I have no problem with that. (Sometimes I feel antisocial too.)

They should have a place to go and do their anti-social thing, where the only people they screw over (if anyone) is the other 11 players on their team, and only for 15 minutes at a maximum.

Solo play in consequential games are just fine with me.

They should just remove all solo queues and those antisocial solo players can either git gud and join a unit with LFG or the forums or they can just giiiiiiiiiiiiiiit out!