82 replies to this topic

[Adamski]

The Inner Sphere Streak SRM2's need a MAJOR balance pass.

Lets compare, Inner Sphere:
Streak SRM2
1 slot
1.5 tons
4 damage
2 heat
3.5s cooldown
270m range
250m/s missile speed
Ghost heat on 5th launcher

Clans:
Streak SRM2
1 slot
1 ton
4 damage
2 heat
3.5s cooldown
360m range
230m/s missile speed
Ghost heat on 5th launcher


Streak SRM4
1 slot
2 tons
8 damage
3 heat
5s cooldown
360m range
230m/s missile speed
Ghost heat on 4th launcher


Streak SRM6
2 slots
3 tons
12 damage
4 heat
6s cooldown
360m range
230m/s missile speed
Ghost heat on 4th launcher

All told, the IS maxes out at 8 SSRM missiles without ghost heat, while the Clans max out at 18 SSRM missiles without ghost heat.

Clan SSRM have 34% more range

If you are looking for an IS advantage somewhere, I assure you, the 9% speed boost does not make up for the 34% less range and extra 50% weight.

I would like to see PGI increase the Ghost heat on SSRM2s to be 1 less than standard SRMs (this is already the case for cSSRM4 & cSSRM6)

I would also like to see PGI reduce the heat on the IS SSRM2 from 2 heat down to 1-1.5, OR increase the range to 360 to match the Clans.

Anyone else with thoughts / suggestions?

Edited by Adamski, 29 April 2016 - 08:55 AM.

[Mcgral18]

...CT seekers?


Maybe not, but they could prioritise different 'Bones'
They don't have the volume to saturate every hitbox (hoping more hit one than another), but if they only hit the 3 Torso Bones (and arms, due to blocking), while they wouldn't be Anti Light, they would be more effective against larger mechs, due to less wasted shots.

[Adamski]

Mcgral18, on 29 April 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

...CT seekers?


Maybe not, but they could prioritise different 'Bones'
They don't have the volume to saturate every hitbox (hoping more hit one than another), but if they only hit the 3 Torso Bones (and arms, due to blocking), while they wouldn't be Anti Light, they would be more effective against larger mechs, due to less wasted shots.

Maybe a more watered down version is that the IS Streaks ignore Arms, while the Clan streaks don't?

[FupDup]

For a second I thought this thread was going to be about redesigning the lock-on mechanism so that it accounts for aiming at specific different hitboxes rather than counting the enemy mech as just a single gigantic target.

I am disappoint.

Edited by FupDup, 29 April 2016 - 09:16 AM.

[Escef]

Just jump the timeline to 3058 and release IS Streaks in 4 and 6 packs.

[Adamski]

Escef, on 29 April 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

Just jump the timeline to 3058 and release IS Streaks in 4 and 6 packs.

That will still leave the IS SEVERELY outgunned in the Streak missiles department, as they will still weigh 50% more and have 34% less range.

[Alistair Winter]

Make all streaks home in on the component you were aiming at when you fired. If you're not aiming at a specific component, they, won't fire.

Adjust damage, heat, cooldown and spread to compensate for them actually requiring aiming skills.

[Mcgral18]

Adamski, on 29 April 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

That will still leave the IS SEVERELY outgunned in the Streak missiles department, as they will still weigh 50% more and have 34% less range.

People always forget that one.

35-30-35
torso hitbox % would certainly give them an advantage

Not sure what changes have occurred, but according to an archived post, all segments (bar head) have a weight of 1, aside from the torso at 0.35-0.3-0.35
(funny, same values)

So, a 1 for each component, if the 3 torsi were a single component, and the head wasn't.

~17% everywhere, aside from 5% for the CT and ~6% for the STs. 102% with rounding sounds close enough to me.


So, going from 5+6+5% to 35+30+35 might even make them too powerful, if you get the SSRM6s, but with 2s they'll still be inferior to something you can aim (or the outright brute force of SRMs)

That also doesn't account for the obligatory Arm shielding (which may fail and throw ALL SSRMs into one ST)

[Adamski]

FupDup, on 29 April 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

For a second I thought this thread was going to be about redesigning the lock-on mechanism so that it accounts for aiming at specific different hitboxes rather than counting the enemy mech as just a single gigantic target.

I am disappoint.

Alistair Winter, on 29 April 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

Make all streaks home in on the component you were aiming at when you fired. If you're not aiming at a specific component, they, won't fire.

Adjust damage, heat, cooldown and spread to compensate for them actually requiring aiming skills.

How does that help to balance IS Streak compared to Clan Streaks? It doesn't? Then your personal issues don't belong in this thread.

Edited by Adamski, 29 April 2016 - 09:43 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Give IS streaks 2s cooldown, that way they remain different from Clan streaks but gain a significant DPS advantage.

The other alternative I see is to increase IS damage per missile to 3.

[Alistair Winter]

Adamski, on 29 April 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

How does that help to balance IS Streak compared to Clan Streaks? It doesn't? Then your personal issues don't belong in this thread.

Personal issues? Don't be like that.

The point is, you can't really find a good balance for IS Streaks because of the terrible target lock mechanic. If you increase their ROF like IS SRM2s, or remove ghost heat or reduce the heat, you're just going to push towards a threshold where they're smashing light mechs while still being useless against every other weapon. They will either be OP or UP against light mechs, but they'll never be in a good spot. That's what's up. Not every balance problem can be fixed with an .xml edit.

[Adamski]

Alistair Winter, on 29 April 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

Personal issues? Don't be like that.

The point is, you can't really find a good balance for IS Streaks because of the terrible target lock mechanic. If you increase their ROF like IS SRM2s, or remove ghost heat or reduce the heat, you're just going to push towards a threshold where they're smashing light mechs while still being useless against every other weapon. They will either be OP or UP against light mechs, but they'll never be in a good spot. That's what's up. Not every balance problem can be fixed with an .xml edit.

If you want to discuss an entirely new aiming mechanic for Streak SRMs, then create a thread for that. If you want to discuss it in this thread I created to discuss Streak SRM balance between factions, then at least do the bare minimum of including how your new mechanic could be used to improve Streak SRM balance between factions.

[Sjorpha]

Alistair Winter, on 29 April 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

Personal issues? Don't be like that.

The point is, you can't really find a good balance for IS Streaks because of the terrible target lock mechanic. If you increase their ROF like IS SRM2s, or remove ghost heat or reduce the heat, you're just going to push towards a threshold where they're smashing light mechs while still being useless against every other weapon. They will either be OP or UP against light mechs, but they'll never be in a good spot. That's what's up. Not every balance problem can be fixed with an .xml edit.

I actually want them to remain an anti-light weapon. I think specialization of weapons like that is a good thing.

That doesn't mean the mechanics can't be improved, but I see nothing wrong with having specific tools against specific weight classes etc. It's a good thing that you can build dedicated anti-light streak mediums that are weak against other classes, the only problem I see is that IS doesn't have a corresponding tool to the streakcrow to deploy in CW. If IS streak 2s were stronger you could use shadowhawk 2d2 as the IS light hunter medium, that would be nice.

Counters and counter-counters are the recipe for interesting strategic gameplay, IMO we don't have enough of those. Far too many of our weapons systems are just generically weak or strong, that's boring. Different types of damage and armor could be a way to increase counterplay and combat stale meta. Reflective armor that is good against lasers but weak against dakka and missiles, and then two more armor types that are strong versus missiles and ballistics respectively but weak to the other two systems. Then only allow each mech two armor types to different mechs are specialized to face different weapons.

Edited by Sjorpha, 29 April 2016 - 10:07 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Remove ghost heat and unnerf the damage would be a start. Still wouldn't be worth taking in most cases.

[Helsbane]

Dear gods I'm sick of this game being shackled to the lore timeline. Just add the IS SSRM4s and 6s and be done with it already. Set the heat of the IS units to be in line with their Clan counterparts, set their weight a touch higher and make them require an extra slot. Maybe increase the range of IS SSRMs a bit, to make them a decent counter to Clan Streaks, that or increase their damage to make them hit a touch harder to compensate for their inferior range.

A few new weapons may just make this game more interesting for a while, and with the playerbase shrinking more each and every day, you'd think that stoking the fires with some new tech would be the obvious solution. But, nah that's crazy talk. Buy a mech pack so you can bring the same old sh*t on new mechs....

[Adamski]

Helsbane, on 29 April 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

Dear gods I'm sick of this game being shackled to the lore timeline. Just add the IS SSRM4s and 6s and be done with it already. Set the heat of the IS units to be in line with their Clan counterparts, set their weight a touch higher and make them require an extra slot. Maybe increase the range of IS SSRMs a bit, to make them a decent counter to Clan Streaks, that or increase their damage to make them hit a touch harder to compensate for their inferior range.

A few new weapons may just make this game more interesting for a while, and with the playerbase shrinking more each and every day, you'd think that stoking the fires with some new tech would be the obvious solution. But, nah that's crazy talk. Buy a mech pack so you can bring the same old sh*t on new mechs....

You just don't get it do you? Even if we advance the timeline, the IS SSRM4 & SSRM6 are going to be strictly worse than cSSRM4 & cSSRM6

We need to address the fundamental balance issues before we throw more toys in the pot.

[Helsbane]

Adamski, on 29 April 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

You just don't get it do you? Even if we advance the timeline, the IS SSRM4 & SSRM6 are going to be strictly worse than cSSRM4 & cSSRM6

We need to address the fundamental balance issues before we throw more toys in the pot.

And you don't seem to get the long term effects of stagnation on a game like this. There hasn't been anything new introduced to keep interest up in a long damn time. Different game modes are all well and good, but they're nothing but different places to use the same old crap over and over.

We both know that altering the IS tech to be more in line with Clan tech (which is sorely needed in a PVP game like this) would cause every lore-thumping neckbeard fanboi to grab torches and pitchforks and drown us all in a river of bullsh*t about how Clans are supposed to be superior, better pilots, more attractive, smell more pleasant, dance better, etc. so this entire discussion is a moot point. At least if they'd just give timeline a bump or release new IS tech as 'prototypes', it would create a bit more variety in what we can use and therefore generate more interest in the game overall.

[Adamski]

Helsbane, on 29 April 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

And you don't seem to get the long term effects of stagnation on a game like this. There hasn't been anything new introduced to keep interest up in a long damn time. Different game modes are all well and good, but they're nothing but different places to use the same old crap over and over.

We both know that altering the IS tech to be more in line with Clan tech (which is sorely needed in a PVP game like this) would cause every lore-thumping neckbeard fanboi to grab torches and pitchforks and drown us all in a river of bullsh*t about how Clans are supposed to be superior, better pilots, more attractive, smell more pleasant, dance better, etc. so this entire discussion is a moot point. At least if they'd just give timeline a bump or release new IS tech as 'prototypes', it would create a bit more variety in what we can use and therefore generate more interest in the game overall.

Yeah, I imagined the Viper, Cyclops, Phoenix Hawk, Kodiak, Rifleman, Marauder, Warhammer, Archer, etc etc etc etc etc

We get new stuff all the time, what we need is for PGI to balance the stuff we already have.

[FupDup]

Sjorpha, on 29 April 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

I actually want them to remain an anti-light weapon. I think specialization of weapons like that is a good thing.

That doesn't mean the mechanics can't be improved, but I see nothing wrong with having specific tools against specific weight classes etc. It's a good thing that you can build dedicated anti-light streak mediums that are weak against other classes, the only problem I see is that IS doesn't have a corresponding tool to the streakcrow to deploy in CW. If IS streak 2s were stronger you could use shadowhawk 2d2 as the IS light hunter medium, that would be nice.

Counters and counter-counters are the recipe for interesting strategic gameplay, IMO we don't have enough of those. Far too many of our weapons systems are just generically weak or strong, that's boring. Different types of damage and armor could be a way to increase counterplay and combat stale meta. Reflective armor that is good against lasers but weak against dakka and missiles, and then two more armor types that are strong versus missiles and ballistics respectively but weak to the other two systems. Then only allow each mech two armor types to different mechs are specialized to face different weapons.

So are you saying we should have a weapon that is specialized at murdering heavies and assaults but sucks against lights and mediums? Because if you want a game of rock-paper-scissors, you don't get to leave out paper.

I can already imagine the extreme forum rage about it...Streaks don't get complained about as much because lights are almost universally hated and despised. But the moment anything bad happens to somebody's fatty mech, the sky begins to fall...

Edited by FupDup, 29 April 2016 - 10:33 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Beartech, on 29 April 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

Wow, another nerf the Clans buff the IS thread.

Sigh

Move along.

PS. Buff Lights Nerf Anything Bigger... sigh Move along

You don't seem to be very objective

The isSSRM is outright inferior.

Heavier and less range by a fair margin, with identical heat, cooldown and damage



Why shouldn't the isSSRM2 get a bonus over the cSSRM2, while the cSSRM has MANY benefits over the isSSRM2?