155 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

vandalhooch, on 08 May 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

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I do see it from yours. I think I see it a little more clearly than you yourself might. I spent over a decade of my life teaching sportsmanship to dozens and dozens of athletes.

In sports, you have eye-, and physical-contact, and your opponent can hear your tone and facial expression.... That is a whole different concept.

That is why you think gg in an online game is good sportsmanship like real life. It is not. Its an insult by default, unless you can hear him or you know the guy on the other side and are aware of his tone/intention.

Only thing i say to an enemy in a match (win or loss) is complementing the performance of a single individual who was in a duel with me or landed an outstanding shot on my mech. Otherwise, i only say nj to my team and move on.

[vandalhooch]

Navid A1, on 08 May 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

In sports, you have eye-, and physical-contact, and your opponent can hear your tone and facial expression.... That is a whole different concept.

1 - Of course there are more contextual clues in face-to-face contact.

2 - Doesn't stop sore losers from misinterpreting a "good game" from opponents anyway.

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That is why you think gg in an online game is good sportsmanship like real life. It is not. Its an insult by default, unless you can hear him or you know the guy on the other side and are aware of his tone/intention.

Assuming it is an insult by default tells us all about how you are when you win.

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Only thing i say to an enemy in a match (win or loss) is complementing the performance of a single individual who was in a duel with me or landed an outstanding shot on my mech. Otherwise, i only say nj to my team and move on.

And one more vote for letting civility disappear because they think Internet interactions aren't "real."

Edited by vandalhooch, 08 May 2016 - 03:29 PM.

[Baelfire]

vandalhooch, on 08 May 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

This statement tells us everything we need to know about whether you are a sore loser or not.

If trying to explain why some people feel offended by "gg" and why i prefer using "o7" to avoid misunderstandings makes me a sore loser, then i'm guilty of that, i guess.

Edited by Baelfire, 08 May 2016 - 03:46 PM.

[vandalhooch]

Baelfire, on 08 May 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

If trying to explain why some people feel offended by "gg" and why i prefer using "o7" to avoid misunderstandings makes me a sore loser, then i'm guilty of that, i guess.

Using "o7" will not avoid misunderstandings in the long run. Just like "gg" has morphed in many people's minds, so to will "o7." Trying to find a perfect salutation is avoiding the heart of the issue, far too many players of online games are sore losers and poor winners. Why let their attitudes dictate your behavior?

[Baelfire]

Because it is not about bad attitudes in general, its about the different meanings "gg" has for different people. The exact meaning of "gg" is subject to personal interpretation. "o7" on the other hand is a emoticon with a very specific meaning. You will probably still offend sore losers when you use it, but at least you will not offend people who just happen to have a different definition of what a good game actually is. It is the latter group im concerned about, not the sore losers.

Edited by Baelfire, 08 May 2016 - 03:46 PM.

[oldradagast]

Baelfire, on 08 May 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

Because it is not about bad attitudes in general, its about the different meanings "gg" has for different people. The exact meaning of "gg" is subject to personal interpretation. "o7" on the other hand is a emoticon with a very specific meaning. You will probably still offend sore losers when you use it, but at least you will not offend people who just happen to have a different definition of what a good game actually is. It is the latter group im concerned about, not the sore losers.

Agreed, but he doesn't get it. He honestly thinks that anyone who could be offended by "gg" when the game was not good or close at all is a "whiny," anyone who doesn't "gg" every match is a "bad sport," and we're all horrible people because we're "letting other people influence our actions" by not acting as he demands we all behave.

I could mention how civilized people take the thoughts and feelings of others into consideration, while immature people frame everything in one narrow and groundless world-view as he has. But I also am getting too much of a laugh out of his rage that we're "letting other people influence our actions" even as he spouts off how we all need to behave to be "good sports" and let him dictate when and how we all say "gg" based on his world view alone.

I bet he's another one that thinks the First Amendment allows him to say whatever he wants to anyone, anywhere, with no consequences.

Edited by oldradagast, 08 May 2016 - 04:03 PM.

[EgoSlayer]

Navid A1, on 08 May 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

In sports, you have eye-, and physical-contact, and your opponent can hear your tone and facial expression.... That is a whole different concept.

That is why you think gg in an online game is good sportsmanship like real life. It is not. Its an insult by default, unless you can hear him or you know the guy on the other side and are aware of his tone/intention.

Only thing i say to an enemy in a match (win or loss) is complementing the performance of a single individual who was in a duel with me or landed an outstanding shot on my mech. Otherwise, i only say nj to my team and move on.

It's only an insult by default because *you* think it's an insult by default.

Start looking at the gg as an end of game platitude that means "good game" any maybe your stress level/blood pressure will go down.

I use 'gg' in most games winning or losing, and I have *never* used it as an insult. It's entirely up to the receiver of the message to determine intent, and if your default is as an insult that's entirely on you. Try a positive outlook for a change.

[vandalhooch]

Baelfire, on 08 May 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

Because it is not about bad attitudes in general, its about the different meanings "gg" has for different people. The exact meaning of "gg" is subject to personal interpretation. "o7" on the other hand is a emoticon with a very specific meaning.

You seem to operating under a delusion that "o7" could not ever possibly take on any other meaning by different people.

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You will probably still offend sore losers when you use it, but at least you will not offend people who just happen to have a different definition of what a good game actually is. It is the latter group im concerned about, not the sore losers.

And sore losers are also not offended by "gg."

Passing judgement on what is or is not a good game played by your opponents is poor sportsmanship.

[vandalhooch]

oldradagast, on 08 May 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

Agreed, but he doesn't get it. He honestly thinks that anyone who could be offended by "gg" when the game was not good or close at all

And who dubbed you the All Powerful Grand Arbiter of what is or is not a good game? Where do you get off deciding whether a "gg" has been sufficiently earned by your opponents? It's like you never had a grandmother to teach you the ways of civility.

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is a "whiny," anyone who doesn't "gg" every match is a "bad sport," and we're all horrible people because we're "letting other people influence our actions" by not acting as he demands we all behave.

I haven't demanded anything. Repeating the lie doesn't make it true.

I've just pointed out that withholding a "gg" because you don't think your opponents deserve it is a clear indication that you aren't nearly as good a sport as you think.

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I could mention how civilized people take the thoughts and feelings of others into consideration, while immature people frame everything in one narrow and groundless world-view as he has.

Says the guy who thinks he alone can determine whether his opponents have done a good enough job at playing a freaking video game to deserve his recognition.

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But I also am getting too much of a laugh out of his rage

Stop projecting your own emotional state onto me when it was you yourself who declared it's impossible to know someone's intent online without the typical face-to-face contextual clues.

It speaks more to your own attitude than it does to mine.

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that we're "letting other people influence our actions"

You stated that you avoid saying "gg" because someone else might misinterpret it. That is the very definition of letting other people influence your actions.

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even as he spouts off how we all need to behave to be "good sports"

You don't have to do anything. Just don't sit there and think you are somehow a paragon of virtue when you can't be bothered the most basic of niceties in life.

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and let him dictate when and how we all say "gg" based on his world view alone.

So I should bow to your world view instead? Or do you just want me to bow all the time?

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I bet he's another one that thinks the First Amendment allows him to say whatever he wants to anyone, anywhere, with no consequences.

Dumbest red herring in a decade.

[oldradagast]

vandalhooch, on 08 May 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

You stated that you avoid saying "gg" because someone else might misinterpret it. That is the very definition of letting other people influence your actions.

So I should bow to your world view instead? Or do you just want me to bow all the time?

You have got to be trolling at this point. You've spent an entire thread trying to dictate the behavior of others by condemning anyone who disagrees with your world view that "you must say GG after every game or you're a bad sport," and you try to justify using your personal feelings to dictate everyone's actions with the silly excuse: "you shouldn't let other people influence your actions."

Are you honestly incapable of understanding that if anyone followed your viewpoint, by definition, we are doing the very thing you hate - "letting other people influence your actions?!"

By the way, "letting other people influence your actions" on some level is consider a key part of civilized behavior. Otherwise, we'd all just wander around stealing, killing, picking fights, and so on because we "don't want other people to influence our actions." With time, you may come to understand this; not everyone has empathy, sadly.

Pack it in before you embarrass yourself further with your venom-filled posts about how "great a sportsman" you are and how considerate you are of the feelings of others - it's bad comedy. I sure hope you don't act this way in real life, or you've got a long, miserable road ahead of you.

Edited by oldradagast, 08 May 2016 - 05:37 PM.

[vandalhooch]

oldradagast, on 08 May 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

You have got to be kidding or trolling at this point. You've spent an entire thread trying to dictate the behavior of others by condemning anyone who disagrees with your world view that "you must say GG after every game or you're a bad sport,"

Is that dictating their behavior or pointing out what their behavior already is?

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and you try to justify using your personal feelings to dictate everyone's actions with the silly excuse: "you shouldn't let other people influence your actions."

Nice red herring. You claimed that you didn't do that and then went and gave an example of doing exactly that. I caught you out in the lie and now you're trying to change the subject.

Say "gg" at the end of a match or don't. Your choice as always. Just don't go trying to convince me that you somehow possess a higher level of sportsmanship when you can't be bothered to engage in the simplest act of it.

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Are you honestly incapable of understanding that if anyone followed your viewpoint, by definition, we are doing the very thing you hate - "letting other people influence your actions?!"

Yep. Go ahead and change the meaning of my words by leaving out all the context. Standard quote mine.

You are using the poor sportsmanship of others (they will misinterpret what I say) as an excuse to not engage in simple good sportsmanship.

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By the way, "letting other people influence your actions" on some level is consider a key part of civilized behavior.

Says the guy who won't engage in the simplest of civilized behaviors because . . . why exactly?

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Otherwise, we'd all just wander around stealing, killing, picking fights, and so on because we "don't want other people to influence our actions." However, some people - such as you - are not role-models for behavior.

Care to point out where I claimed to be a role-model for behavior? Or are we just supposed to ignore the fact that you are making stuff up as usual?

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Pack it in before you embarrass yourself even more, and I sure hope you don't act this way in real life, or you've got a long, miserable road ahead of you...

And you just couldn't pass up the opportunity to declare yourself the king of arbiters by passing judgement on the quality of my life despite knowing absolutely nothing about me beyond the fact that I play MWO and think you are pompous blowhard.

o7

Make of that what you will.

[Navid A1]

EgoSlayer, on 08 May 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

It's only an insult by default because *you* think it's an insult by default.

Start looking at the gg as an end of game platitude that means "good game" any maybe your stress level/blood pressure will go down.

I use 'gg' in most games winning or losing, and I have *never* used it as an insult. It's entirely up to the receiver of the message to determine intent, and if your default is as an insult that's entirely on you. Try a positive outlook for a change.

I once thought like you... meaning that i always said gg when after a good match.
4 years of MWO play time and some harsh feedback from a good number of people convinced me that gg is an insult and i should not say it.

Do i get offended by it?... not at the slightest (i've been living the puglife^tm for way too long.)
But that does stop me from saying it because everyone gets offended by it.

[vandalhooch]

Navid A1, on 08 May 2016 - 05:44 PM, said:

I once thought like you... meaning that i always said gg when after a good match.
4 years of MWO play time and some harsh feedback from a good number of people convinced me that gg is an insult and i should not say it.

Do i get offended by it?... not at the slightest (i've been living the puglife^tm for way too long.)
But that does stop me from saying it because everyone gets offended by it.

Everyone? Or just the vocal sore losers?

[Hang Jebat]

Anyone who gets offended by gg or takes it the wrong way because they have "sensitive feelings" or "had a bad experience" etc, I don't really care. Its a bloody game guys.


gg

Edited by Hang Jebat, 08 May 2016 - 06:41 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Is this topic about good sportsmanship or bad sportsmanship? I think everyone knows the difference between the two.

[Kelbor]

Actually I only intended this topic to be about not beating up on the poor players and politely giving them a few pointers. I never imagined it would evolve into this.

Saying that, here is my two cents. I actually never use end game text comms at all, but for different reasons.
First off most players sign off as soon as the match finishes, giving my very slow typing skills inadequate time to respond.
Secondly, I stopped using in match text years ago. Most of what I type would never show up and if it did it would fade away in seconds. Too frustrating.
Also of note. It wasn't until this thread that I figured out what o7 even meant. I never took all this "gg" or "o7" to mean anything. To me it's all some code that hardcore players use between themselves. I just move on to the next match.

I do give a vocal shout out to people over VoIP that i think is having a really good match. It boosts there spirits and hopefully keeps their spirits up for the next match.

[Johnny Z]

Kelbor, on 08 May 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

Actually I only intended this topic to be about not beating up on the poor players and politely giving them a few pointers. I never imagined it would evolve into this.

Saying that, here is my two cents. I actually never use end game text comms at all, but for different reasons.
First off most players sign off as soon as the match finishes, giving my very slow typing skills inadequate time to respond.
Secondly, I stopped using in match text years ago. Most of what I type would never show up and if it did it would fade away in seconds. Too frustrating.
Also of note. It wasn't until this thread that I figured out what o7 even meant. I never took all this "gg" or "o7" to mean anything. To me it's all some code that hardcore players use between themselves. I just move on to the next match.

I do give a vocal shout out to people over VoIP that i think is having a really good match. It boosts there spirits and hopefully keeps their spirits up for the next match.

The first few times o7 was used was when a player was telling other players to press the ready button in the top right corner of the screen in closed beta. The timer for match start was different and it took longer back then unless everyone pressed the ready button if I remember correctly. It was very common for players to say "press ready" back then to get the others going. Soon after that the meaning changed.

Other interesting fun facts. All the original mechs are sized strangely because the size of mechs was used as a balancing factor back then. Now quirks are used which is why in June most mechs are getting a size over haul, mostly the original mechs.

Also originally this was a board game with dice and a simple heat scale was used, which has created all sorts of problems(TTK, high alphas, boating, "ghost heat", etc) in a modern online 1st person, real time computer game, so they are looking into that it is rumoured.

I am guessing role playing games and board games such as Battletech were made by book publishers and the paper industry to counter the growing trend of computer/console entertainment and stay relevant, this is why Clans were introduced over powered and served to sell more rule books... this carried on into computer gaming for quite a while but is a disaster in a real time online 1st person computer game, not to mention a total waste of high production value spent on the Inner Sphere mechs. This high production value is present in a 1st person online computer game but not present in the board game, if anyone didn't notice.

Edited by Johnny Z, 09 May 2016 - 01:56 AM.

[adamts01]

Kelbor, on 08 May 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

I do give a vocal shout out to people over VoIP that i think is having a really good match. It boosts there spirits and hopefully keeps their spirits up for the next match.

I have a couple of questions. How do you find the time to gather all the flowers that power your mechs? And how do you keep your cockpit full of sunshine on night missions?

[oldradagast]

vandalhooch, on 08 May 2016 - 05:40 PM, said:

Care to point out where I claimed to be a role-model for behavior? Or are we just supposed to ignore the fact that you are making stuff up as usual?

Based on that first question, you must not read your own replies. As for the rest, you still haven't addressed the absurdities of:

- Claiming to not be telling everyone what to do while then proceeding to demand that everyone behave in the way you tell them - everyone should "GG" every match or they are a bad sport because you, the self-appointed high guardian of proper behavior (when you're not picking fights on the internet with people who don't agree with you), said so.

- Claiming that people "should not let others influence their actions" even as you pick fights with everyone who refuses to agree with you - and thus let "somebody else influence their actions."

- Claiming that any form of consideration for others is "letting them tell you want to do." I bet you must be a blast at parties or in any civilized environment.

Your replies here make no sense whatsoever, particularly your failure to understand the absurdity in demanding that everyone do as you command because "we shouldn't let others influence our actions" when we decide to not say things that could be considered offensive.

Edited by oldradagast, 09 May 2016 - 03:30 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Wow! 7 pages and still going.

Anyway, this is the reason I try not to use "gg" anymore, it is just too controversial and has very different meanings to different players.

As someone that still tries to be sportsman like, I have decided to just do the salute instead. Sure people could be against that too, but I think the chance is a lot less.

I once had someone ask me why I compromised. They thought I shouldn't cave in to some players opinions and should stick to my guns if I felt "gg" was acceptable.

Thing is, it is about the message more than the words. I want to thank the other team for their effort (win or lose), and how exactly i say that is of little importance.

If there becomes a time when a large portion of the player base hates "<o", then I guess I will look for something else. Hopefully there will be something else.

I'd like to think that some players still have some semblance of sportsmanship, or at the least, allow players to voice it without being chastised for it.