321 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 May 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

because that is what Heat cap is doing... by changing just how long it takes to get there with the same rate of heat build up The end result is the same, but superior dissipation does in effect give a superior cap. It's the same as your overheating CPU. If you get to that temp, it's still toast, but you add this gonzo system that keeps you from getting to that temp. Essentially the heatsinks are banking (and disposing of) waste heat to keep them from frying the system sooner.

That's not what the MWO heatcap is doing here. It's changing the top limit.

Say the top limit is 300.
Whether you're sinking heat at 25 per second or 50 per second...
If you generate heat at 75 per second, whether you shut down in a little over 5 seconds or it's 12 seconds, your cap is still 300.

Your cap will never change. The time it takes to GET to that cap is what changes.

Thus.
Say the top limit is 300.
You have one unit sinking at 25 per second. Another sinking at 50 per second.
Now they generate heat at 100 per second.
Does that change what the cap is?

Same units.
You have one unit sinking at 25 per second. Another sinking at 50 per second.
Now they generate heat at 200 per second.
Did the cap change?

Same units.
You have one unit sinking at 25 per second. Another sinking at 50 per second.
They now generate 300 heat per second.
Did the heat cap change? They are, however, gonna shut down super quick this time.

Same units.
You have one unit sinking at 25 per second. Another sinking at 50 per second.
You generate 49 heat per second.
Did the cap change? No. Sure only one will ever shut down, but the Cap. Does. Not. Change.

There is no rising ceiling. The Cap. Does. Not. Change.
It will never change.

Even if you made one cool at 150 units per second, it will never change the maximum heat.

We're talking about real time. Changing the heatsink will not change the maximum heat, if it builds too quickly, say an alpha strike, it should always fail. This is why the action is a last ditch effort by a desperate pilot, not a common occurrence. Even Awesomes fire two PPCs then one PPC to keep up a constant rate of fire over 20 seconds and in any breakdown of tabletop into real time, at no time can the Awesome fire all 3 PPCs at exactly the same time in a fixed cooling rate as it would shut down. Even if you gave it 20 DHS.

Thus is why I'm hoping you understand why I stated we need to have a fixed heat ceiling. I don't care what they set it at, but it needs to be fixed. (When Clan mechs first came out, the maximum possible heat ceiling was nearly 140, it's currently 121.2.
That's 4x the source material, and slightly more than 2 times Mechwarrior 4 which suffered horrendously from laser vomit metas.... and our weapons are colder.

Instead of this ghost heat nonsense, they need to get some sense.

Edited by Koniving, 16 May 2016 - 03:55 PM.

[Koniving]

Nightmare1, on 16 May 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

There are still problems with this. Take 1) for example. If you base it on Mech speed, then it would kill Light Mechs and Medium Mechs. Slower Mechs would be the only Mechs capable of hitting anything while moving. If it was based on weight, as in heavy footfalls and ponderous movement, then it would kill the Heavies and Assaults. Trying to use both speed and weight would likely prove to be too complicated and problematic.

Then, if you consider 3), it really only nerfs weapons that don't need nerfing. Right now, the big problem is with energy weapons; not ballistics and PPCs. Yet, recoil based CoF wouldn't do anything to curb the overuse of energy weapons. The end result, is that CoF will just bolster the use of such weapons, while continuing to marginalize Mechs that rely on ballistics, such as the Hunchback, Shadowhawk, King Crab, etc.

In my opinion, CoF is a can of worms that really just shouldn't be opened. PGI did at one point, but was smart enough to clamp the lid back on before the worms spilled out; let's not do that again.

I respect the thought you put into that, and interestingly enough, Battletech has already thought of that! After all this system has already been in Battletech since... several years before 1987

Compare if you will, a Dire Wolf and a Locust.
Lets assume both have the same pilot. I'll be using tabletop as it makes it easier to demonstrate, but try to imagine this in MWO. So the pilot has a gunnery skill of 3 in this case; I know that makes him borderline elite but hey, pinpoint FLD! The higher the number, the worse it is.
A Locust at 20 tons has a base accuracy of 3 while stationary. Its cruising speed is 8 units and its full speed is 12 units.
While cruising, its accuracy is +1 (4, so slightly worse).
While going full speed its accuracy is +2 (5, so much worse than stationary).

This means with a stock engine, the Locust can go (what is that, about 86 kph? So 81 in MWO?) with minimal accuracy issues. Try 129 and focusing lasers is gonna be a little harder.

A Dire Wolf at 100 tons has a base accuracy of 3 while stationary. Its cruising speed is 3 units and its full speed is 5 units.
While cruising its accuracy is +1 (4).
While going full speed its accuracy is + (5, so much worse).

For fun, the accuracy while jump jetting is +3. So basically what we have now with random reticule movement, huzzah!

Now what if by weight...
Basically lights win, assaults are kinda meh.

The key is you don't base it on just one specific trait.

You base it on a multitude of traits.
How fast is the machine?
How flexible is the machine?
How well does it balance?
How does it move?
How does it handle angles and can the ankles support its weight and keep it right side up on a 25 degree slope? 45? 60?
What kind of 'bounce' does the machine have? How would this affect range accuracy: Up close? Medium range? Long range?
How quickly can the targeting system compensate?

See, there are dozens of little factors that can be adjusted to improve or reduce the quality of the mech without going into "Quirks" or "Ghost heat."

An example is already in MWO and it is already functional. It does need tweaking. But for that it needs Developer Attention.

Short version. Watch the TAGs in each 'view'.


Long version. Has several mechs to demonstrate.


Again, it needs some serious tweaking, but it is a start.
It also effectively requires inverse kinetics to be re-enabled.

Now take into consideration this fight in third person.
We have the Highlander.

And the Dire Wolf.

Notice they both move very differently.

When designing it overall, what you effectively require is Jedi Curve of where we think each weight class's unit should be and then allow them to deviate slightly.

Then, when comparing them as a whole.. they should compare as Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock.
Or in a simpler way... See the following. At least the power creep one.

Edited by Koniving, 16 May 2016 - 06:48 PM.

[Davegt27]

smokefield, on 08 May 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

I keep seeing people complaining about ttk beeing too short and demanding to be increased by all sorts of mechanics. And I fear that 90% of them have no idea of what they are talking about.

TTK is in a pretty good spot now. even too long in some cases.

this is an online shooting game. it is not TT. You can start a new game at any moment. you can pick a new mech whenever you want. no one wants a drop to take several hours to complete.

if you dont think TTK is fine...do some lobby games 1v1. same weight class, similat mechs. see how long it takes a mech to be killed.

we dont need a longer ttk, we need people to learn to play a mech. we need a better tutorial, we need a better training ground, and people need to take those courses and learn.

For those who die too fast - TTK can be doubled if you learn to twist well...tripled if you learn to twist and spread the damage.

How low can you go ? have you played this game ? you will see that ttk its pretty fine where it is. stop asking for artificial mechanics to increase it.

Why do you feel TTK is at a good spot?

Seems you need to play more from what I can tell

Let me try to explain

People get the most enjoyment out of the game if they get a chance to participate in the game

Participation takes on a few forms

1) Movement
2) Tactics
3) Shooting their weapons
4) Recovery from mistakes
5) Rewards for the effort they put in

Now if you think back to the old arcade games played for money how do you feel MWO compares?

I think the most enjoyment comes from shooting your weapons
No matter win or lose if you get to fire a good amount do some damage you will feel go even if it’s a loss

My opinion is TTK is ok but if Mechs where more durable it would be a lot better

Right now if you’re a newb and you pick the wrong Mech or wrong tactic make a mistake
You’re done for

It’s hard to "get good" if you only pull the trigger 3 or 4 times each drop

[Thunder Child]

I would just love to see Heat play a bigger role.
Right now, it's "Can I fire an Alpha". If yes, then Fire. If no, then either Override and Fire, or hide for Cooldown.
Few people stagger their fire for sustained DPS.
It'd be nice if DPS was more of a thing.

[Nightmare1]

DPS used to be pretty important until PGI nerfed the ever living daylights out of ACs by reducing their range and projectile speed. Add in gimped JJs and ridiculously long-range lasers, and there's no reason to play dakka in most cases.

Before the range and projectile velocity got nerfed, long-range DPS dakka was a real thing.

Edited by Nightmare1, 16 May 2016 - 04:34 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Nightmare1, on 16 May 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

That wouldn't be quite so bad. The recoil based CoF would still be an issue though.




Previously, your crosshairs shook with your Mech's footfalls, influencing your shot placement. This didn't work very well, exacerbating the problem of bad hit-reg. It was also really frustrating to accurately hit targets with it.

On a side note, Mechs used to be able to destroy enemy actuators and such, which also affected your reticle and movement. That was all scrapped too.

Was that in early closed alpha/beta? I could see that being scraped early on simply due to how things were working with the net code and such at that time AND with IGP in the mix (maybe Paul/Russ too )

PGI could also simply remove the structural quirks then triple the armor/structural points instead of the current doubling while working on balancing/reining in the laser vomit/alphas.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 16 May 2016 - 04:32 PM.

[Kotev]

It was more fun in closed beta when we had longer fights and very exciting standoffs. Today mechs with 80 dmg alpha with 2 coolshots can kill you quick. Where is fun of that?!?!?

[Nightmare1]

Tarl Cabot, on 16 May 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

Was that in early closed alpha/beta? I could see that being scraped early on simply due to how things were working with the net code and such at that time AND with IGP in the mix (maybe Paul/Russ too )

It was very early. I don't remember it very well; I played one or two matches with it and then had to stop because of RL stuff. When I came back, it was gone. I just recall having a hard time hitting stuff and getting aggravated when I did because it didn't register. My PC also wasn't up to snuff back then, which is one of the reasons why I dropped the game for a little while.

[Targetloc]

I always felt the game was the most fun during the beta before double heatsinks were implemented. That plus 8v8 meant you were taking less than 50% the focus fire you take on average now.

Altases seemed way, way tougher then. I almost exclusively piloted the Hunchback and I remember every time you ran into an Atlas it was a serious choice whether you would try to focus it down (which you really couldn't do quickly because the heat cap was so low) or count on the fact that he was also fairly heat capped and try to put terrain between you and focus his friends.

It was a completely different game when assaults were these massive pieces that would plunk down and you'd either need 3 or 4 mechs (half your team) to focus them down quickly, or you needed to just deal with them being there, tensely counting down the seconds before they'd have the heat capacity to lash out and smash something.

It had its own balance issues like gausskats, and most fights devolved into circle of death brawls, but there was a lot more focus on piloting and trying to force position so you'd have a good shot when the heat cleared or you'd be out of LOS or behind the target.

In a medium there were way less instances of getting smashed instantly, and being able to get up close on heavier mechs and use tighter turning to limit their shots. A calculated move to cut tight in front and take a shot so that you'd get behind and out-turn them for a couple shots was a lot better when 5 seconds meant 1 or 2 shots for 20-40 damage versus 3 alphas for 70-100 damage.

Edited by Targetloc, 16 May 2016 - 04:55 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

Koniving, on 09 May 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

I have a fantastic example of this in an unrelated front. The new ghost in the shell f2p game that Nexon is pumping out is literally an updated Combat Arms minus a few of the broken issues. Without the I.P. it wouldn't have nearly the same attention as it still runs the same basic formula with a bit of new condiments sprinkled on.

Nah M.W.O isn't as bad as that, I saw this and jumped on the founders programme, half drunk, o.k very drunk, there and then, at 1am in the morning, amazed I could read off my credit card number to be honest.

I saw the G.I.T.S fps and though wow what a load of crap, which is rather meh, as that remains my favourite Anime of all time, and was looking forward to giving it a try.

[Belacose]

As an unbiased, well balanced leveled headed player, yes, it's fine right where it is now.

/end discussion

[Nightmare1]

For Pete's Sake, why did you have to necro this thread???

[Belacose]

Nightmare1, on 23 June 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

For Pete's Sake, why did you have to necro this thread???

As one who works well with animals and can flip a mean pancake, I'd venture to say it's because there's only 12 pages thus far.

[Nightmare1]

Belacose, on 23 June 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

As one who works well with animals and can flip a mean pancake, I'd venture to say it's because there's only 12 pages thus far.

ROFL

That's about the best answer one could expect.

[Lykaon]

YourSaviorLegion, on 08 May 2016 - 03:22 AM, said:

OH NO TORSO TWISTING IS TOO OP!

KDK 3 fires you twist arm pops off it fires again you twist side torso breached fires again other arm pops off fires again and your mech is down from an XL engine kill. The entire time twisting and not having the opertunity to actually fight. Just not getting whacked in 1 second and "tripling" the survival time all the way up to three fire cycles of a clan UAC10.

A 65 ton mech can have without quirks 30 structure in a side torso. It may also have up to 60 armor on that torso so let's assume a typical 50/10 split front to rear leaving 80 armor on the side torso.

4x clan UAC10s a typical loadout on a KDK 3 does 80 damage in less than .5 seconds.
An Executioner can have 7x small pulse and a UAC20 that can also tear a heavy mech in half in under a second
6x UAC5 Direwolf can deal out 120 damage in under 2 seconds.(1.66 second cooldown on a clan UAC5)

So yeah TTK is fine if you like the nigh instant "BLAM! headshot! game play" of a typical FPS.

[White Bear 84]

In tier 1 drops, matches can turn in an instance - player aim is good and mechs go down fast..

TTK definitely needs a bit of work, which probably as per usual comes down to dealing with alpha strikes and boating..

[Nightmare1]

Lykaon, on 23 June 2016 - 04:10 PM, said:

KDK 3 fires you twist arm pops off it fires again you twist side torso breached fires again other arm pops off fires again and your mech is down from an XL engine kill. The entire time twisting and not having the opertunity to actually fight. Just not getting whacked in 1 second and "tripling" the survival time all the way up to three fire cycles of a clan UAC10.

A 65 ton mech can have without quirks 30 structure in a side torso. It may also have up to 60 armor on that torso so let's assume a typical 50/10 split front to rear leaving 80 armor on the side torso.

4x clan UAC10s a typical loadout on a KDK 3 does 80 damage in less than .5 seconds.
An Executioner can have 7x small pulse and a UAC20 that can also tear a heavy mech in half in under a second
6x UAC5 Direwolf can deal out 120 damage in under 2 seconds.(1.66 second cooldown on a clan UAC5)

So yeah TTK is fine if you like the nigh instant "BLAM! headshot! game play" of a typical FPS.

ROFL, I've gone toe-to-toe with Kodiaks and won via torso twisting with standard engine Mechs. You just need to place your shots right. You fire, twist and take the hit, fire as you twist back again, take the hit, and then twist forward and fire a third time to finish the KDK. It comes down to your personal agility, aim, and grit. Success demands all three.

Now, XL engines aren't supposed to take that kind of abuse. They're designed to be glass cannons and, given the IS quirks, they are fitting. The standards give you tenacity while the XLs give you firepower. You have to decide which one you want to pursue. Trying to brawl with an XL engine is, generally speaking, a stupid move in most situations. I would say that is your number one problem right there, not the assumption that TTK is too short. You're just not doing anything to boost it. XL Mechs should be your snipers and skirmishers while standards should be your brawlers. It's that simple.

For laughs, here's a video of a Standard Engine Archer killing a KDK-3 in a brawling situation, then going on to clinch the match for the team (KDK brawl at 4:20):





My TTK in that match was ~9:10, or in other words, the entire match length. This is because I knew how to play the Mech and the map to the best effect for both. If you just Rambo it, you'll get your butt killed quickly regardless of what you're piloting.

You can't just arbitrarily fix TTK. It comes down to pilot performance. You first have to fix that, and then you'll see your TTK increase.

In other situations, I've brawled 1v1 many times, and found that TTK is very satisfactory in this area, assuming that you're running a true brawler and not laughably trying to brawl using an XL Mech. That's like trying to get into a close-range gunfight with a sniper rifle in other games; the SMG guy with body armor is going to win against your slow-shooting rifle and cloth gillie suit. Fight in your role, and your TTK will be good.

If you won't fight within your role, then don't come to the forums and gripe about TTK because the problem is you; not the game.

White Bear 84, on 23 June 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

In tier 1 drops, matches can turn in an instance - player aim is good and mechs go down fast..

TTK definitely needs a bit of work, which probably as per usual comes down to dealing with alpha strikes and boating..

That's more a function of concentrated group fire at that point; there's no fix for that because Teamwork is OP. The only real way to fix it is to prevent teams, which is something I don't think any of us want to see, lol.

[Red Shrike]

People are either complaining that you shouldn't necro threads, or they're complaining that instead of making new threads people should use the search funtion. Make up your mind already.

Onto the subject of TTK, I feel that the damage numbers of individual weapons is in or near a good spot. But what makes TTK an issue is things like people boating weapons to get single click 80 point damage and the the ability to sit at 99% heat without any penalties whatsoever.

Rather than tinker with the weapons to try and fix what isn't broken, I think a heat scale with a fixed cap and progressively worsening penalties is something in the right direction.

White Bear 84, on 23 June 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

TTK definitely needs a bit of work, which probably as per usual comes down to dealing with alpha strikes and boating..

Pretty much.

Edited by Red Shrike, 23 June 2016 - 04:32 PM.

[Khobai]

The main problem is 12v12

Quickplay needs to be 8v8, only CW should be 12v12 (because it has respawns)

Even the MWO world tournament isnt 12v12... its 8v8 for a reason... because 12v12 makes TTK suck and it makes individual player skill less meaningful and as a result its not as enjoyable to play or spectate.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2016 - 04:33 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Khobai, on 23 June 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

The main problem is 12v12

Quickplay needs to be 8v8, only CW should be 12v12

Even the MWO world tournament isnt 12v12... its 8v8 for a reason... because 12v12 makes TTK suck and it makes individual player skill less meaningful and as a result its not enjoyable to spectate.

I'm more willing to see it go back to 8v8 now that we have CW. It might even help boost the CW population a little bit.

That being said, I'd like my Death Star first, lol.