321 replies to this topic

[KahnWongFuChung]

TTK for the normal player in MWO sucks asssss and you all know it why?

(Time to kill is only too fast when one idiot gets focused down by 12 guys.

So stop exposing yourself for 12 guys to focus you down.)

The problem is focus fire AND THE MECHS MOVE JUST TO DAMM SLOW compared to the weapon speeds in the older PC MechWarrior games all the mechs were much more agile and you actually could avoid a lot of focus fire and move into cover much quicker even in reverse.

Now the MWO mechs are just lethargic slow moving pigs once you crest a hill or come out of cover your toast in 3-15 seconds no matter what your skill level is. and trying to back into cover fast is total fail in MWO so your better off trying to rotate and get to the next cover spot taking minimal damage as you can than try to reverse your mech.

Plus in past PC MechWarrior games all damage was spread damage and the mechs took a lot more damage overall even with alpha shots.

MWO is terribly unforgiving on game play match's along with crappy FPS poor matchmaking repetitive boring matches no social atmosphere most players end up going to other more entertaining MMOS.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Time to Kill is in a weird place in my book. Having done a number of mirror 1v1's in the past as well as plenty of 2v2's few 3v3's and a fair bit of the scouting mode tells me that once you have a bit of focus fire going TTK is 3-4 seconds. And when deathballs hit another deathball whatever team is calling targets better and following those orders will win.

However, even with this situation power draw is an appealing alternative due to it prevents alpha strikes that can cleave off side torsos on heavies and mediums while leaving a light with barely any armor or just flat out dead. Yeah people will adapt to just volley fire but that is what we want, sure it only adds maybe 2-3 seconds but that more time to do something. When talking about 1v1's I actually have to say that it takes too long, yeah, TTK in 1v1's is too long when it is the same weight of 'mech. Why? Double armor plus all those structure quirks make it take forever. But, that falls apart as soon as there is another 'mech in the mix due to generally you can only really focus on giving your best armor to one of the two foes and as such you get shot in the *** or your weak side gets bored through. The other awkward thing is that TTK even in tabletop was pretty short, yeah each turn (as in movement, firing, melee for all units) was a 10 second period, but, you (baring exceedingly lucky through armor shots or AC10/PPC/Gauss or any other 10+ damage pin point damage weapon in TT to the head or multiple through armor engine crits, or through armor ammo hits) would take a few turns, 3-4 after 1-3 turns of movement. Average board is roughly 980mx1020m (being two battlesheets being 16x17 hexes across and each hex being 30m) so movement was much less than our current maps that are a couple of kilometers most of the time (roughly 2km-3km on average from what I remember). So when you think about it, average BT TT match would represent the moment where two teams deathballs start to advance on one another with doritos available due to sensor range and it is all over in around a minute. What we see in MWO is about that, which is great if you want a real time TT version where aim matters and you don't care about the fact that due to aim TTK a single 'mech becomes fractions of a second so a proper 12v12 deathball fight would take 20 seconds or so due to you can't shoot through corpses.

This poses a rather nasty problem to me, how do we slow things down without making it feel too slow. The obvious answer is to slow down rate of fire of a mech (note, not the weapons, the 'mech itself), in order to do that we need to much with the heat as it is the limiting factor that TT put in (and thus lore and the setting rely on it a fair bit) to help the same problem of time to kill. So, while 30 damage potential initially sounds silly, it would go a long ways to actually making things more fun, which is key, it is fun to get into a brutal slug fest with a 'mech +/- 10 tons of your own weight, and with having a draw mechanic that limits how much you can fire and how often you can fire that is more restrictive than the current laughable heat bar (seriously it does nothing to stop someone who runs a build that can ignore ghost heat) then you get people playing a more slow fight. Now people worry it will make things a poke fest, no, it won't things already are a poke fest with people poking, alpha striking then hiding behind something, again. Changing Time to Kill to be longer means people can be less timid, this also means you have more people thinking they can be Rambo but really be Leeroy Jenkens and just get splattered for their stupidity, let the potatoes potato. What this is really about is making it so when you have to figure out how to win a match there are more options than bide your time and hope the enemy makes a mistake first so you can alpha strike someone impatient.

To me changing Time to Kill is about making MWO have a more dynamic situation, the power draw system (which is closer to how the TT heat system worked anyways) changes TTK for the better and makes the game have more options. Don't want to see Kodiak 3's running around with quad cUAC10's making everything melt in five seconds or less (or your money back) then changing how damage potential plays out and thus how long TIme to Kill functions is the only way. If you feel things are fine, honestly, that is fine, but, dev's don't like how the game is being played, a lot of people don't like how matches play out, so things are being tried to change how MWO plays.

A nice side effect of the potential slowing of TTK is that the new player experience isn't a brick wall of hot death, it forgives mistakes a bit more which is what allows learning, which in turn helps retain players, which could potentially be paying customers, which is what PGI needs.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

smokefield, on 08 May 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

if you dont think TTK is fine...do some lobby games 1v1.

It'd guess it's about about 10s when you remove all the walking and hiding....and that includes cooldown times.....if you'd remove the cool down times and just count time taking fire....probably about 4 seconds.

Edit: At least I know my tryhard atlas can kill anything in it's firing range in less than that amount of time (assuming I actually hit it)

Edited by Ex Atlas Overlord, 24 June 2016 - 12:29 PM.

[Johnny Z]

PhoenixFire55, on 24 June 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

We've heard this story of yours so very often its gotten old.
Everyone but you cheats, hacks, headshots everyone with SRMs, has 100 damage alphas that they can fire 5 times in a row and yadda yadda.

Your expert opinion on the matter of TTK is very important for us, we will send you your wagon of tinfoil shortly.

You seem upset. Also your true character shows through here a lot. Very brave of you. I wasn't talking to you and your alts by the way.

If your going to be so helpful explain how a srm Jenner got every missile to hit the head?

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 June 2016 - 12:29 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

KahnWongFuChung, on 24 June 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

The problem is focus fire AND THE MECHS MOVE JUST TO DAMM SLOW compared to the weapon speeds in the older PC MechWarrior games all the mechs were much more agile and you actually could avoid a lot of focus fire and move into cover much quicker even in reverse.

This isn't quite right.

In MW4 the fastest useful mech went around 130kph with the fastest being the Dasher at 150kph (though was added by Mektek). Reverse speed was also slower in MW4 as it is 66% of your max in this game I believe compared to something like 33-50% of MW4 (not really sure what it is, I could've sworn it was slower thoguh). MW4 mechs were however more agile which many mechs being able to twist almost at standard FPS levels. At the same time however, MW4 weapon velocities were in some cases, double or triple what we have in this game, for example the AC20 had a 2000m/s velocity (which is what the Gauss is currently).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 June 2016 - 12:27 PM.

[Red Shrike]

PhoenixFire55, on 24 June 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

Everyone is playing for himself rather then for the team. THAT is the reason for peek-a-boo alpha strike meta, not the game mechanics.

Pretty much.

Edit:
You'd think that it's different in FP, sadly everything in FP caters to that "everyone for himself" mentality.

Edited by Red Shrike, 24 June 2016 - 01:13 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Red Shrike, on 24 June 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

Pretty much.

Edit:
You'd think that it's different in FP, sadly everything in FP caters to that "everyone for himself" mentality.

Yeah, and thats been my point for quite some time. Its people themselves who create this peek-a-boo meta and people themselves who allow it to be so dominant. Nothing to do with the game. Except maybe "balanced" maps.

Johnny Z, on 24 June 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

You seem upset. Also your true character shows through here a lot. Very brave of you. I wasn't talking to you and your alts by the way.

Heh. Thats something new. Just out of curiosity, who are my alts supposed to be mr.Tinfoil?

Johnny Z, on 24 June 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

If your going to be so helpful explain how a srm Jenner got every missile to hit the head?

How would I know? These are your fantasies and delusions after all.

[Nightmare1]

Red Shrike, on 24 June 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

If he has hit me for the whole duration of his large (pulse) lasers, I'll have a cored CT. And if I decide to run after him with a cored CT (or even with just a dented CT) I will die within seconds, not because he fires again, but because he has friends, and he damn well knows it.
Similarly, when playing World of Tanks against a tank with a long reload, you don't charge around the corner after he shoots because you know that 3 of his teammates are sitting there waiting for you.

I just wish people would stop peeking and poking like they're playing World of Tanks.

So, to make sure I understand you properly, you're upset because your target has buddies and you don't? Whose fault is that, lol?

Here, us my "Rules for a Gunfight" Primer. It should help you improve your own TTK:




So, when that high-power, slow-shooting enemy is sitting there, you milk his shot to make him miss, then charge in with a pack at your back and rend him limb from limb, along with his buddies, his pet dog, and his teddy bear named "Cuddles."

Lehmund, on 24 June 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

With the new "ghost heat" system coming up, this debate will likely change depending on how it is implemented. The current system allows for high alphas that, if pinpoint CT fielded by a heavy or Assault (laser vomit comes to mind), you'll die on the second alpha, about 3-4 seconds after the first, assuming you don't torso twist, of course (1v1).

Of course, this is noob play if that happens currently and you can't do anything if you're being shot by 5+ alpha strikes no matter how much twisting you'll do.

What was explained about "Ghost Heat 2.0" seems to indicate that PGI wants to make mech pilots spread out their weapons fire over longer periods by penalizing high alphas through extra heat scale, thus forcing mechs to stay longer face to face to deliver the same damage as the previous alpha, or do their Alpha and perhaps having to cool down way longer before being able to shoot all weapons again.

This would promote longer mech lives in general and will provide you with the sense of longer survivability you all seem to be craving. I do mean sense because logically, it only means that instead of dealing with Alpha strikes, you may deal with the same weapons "chain fired" instead.

On the other hand, pilots under such systems, to optimize DPS may just have hybrids builds and use their different systems at different ranges for different targets to maximize effectiveness... and if that is the case, TTK will increase most likely too.

I'm looking forward to seeing what PGI comes with in this regard as I do think taking 2 large alphas in the CT due to bad timing around bends and dying is a bit distressing in a MW game and would prefer getting some decent armor shot off and being able to continue fighting a bit more.

Btw, in this case, TTK while being shot by a few opponent mechs would be just as short 'cause of the dps.

We'll see.

Yeah, I said a while back that this was all pointless until we saw what PGI had in store for us. Anything prior to that is mindless speculation and whining from folks that are upset over TTK. Frankly, even if Alphas were halved from 80 down to 40, it still wouldn't make a difference. Six Mechs firing at you is still six Mechs firing at you; even if the total damage is reduced from 480 down to 240, I don't think that there's a single Mech in the game that can tank that much damage on its CT.

The problem of short TTK isn't a function of Alpha Strikes; it's a function of pilot skill and group firing. Careless, low-skilled, or arrogant pilots that forgo the safety of the group should be expected to be blasted apart via focus fire and have a low TTK. Pilots that coordinate and stay together can expect longer TTKs. It's just that simple.

PhoenixFire55, on 24 June 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

And you don't have "friends"? I think it says it all really. Everyone is playing for himself rather then for the team. THAT is the reason for peek-a-boo alpha strike meta, not the game mechanics.

Yep. You'd probably like my picture above.


I've got lots of vids proving that 1v1 TTK is fine on my YouTube Channel. The issue is 6v1 or 12v1 TTK. There isn't really a good fix for that.

[Red Shrike]

Nightmare1, on 24 June 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

So, to make sure I understand you properly, you're upset because your target has buddies and you don't? Whose fault is that, lol?

At most the random teammates I get matched with (in QP anyway) can be used as distractions for the enemy. Outside of that, I have no friends in MWO, no.

There is no coordination in QP, so any charge that's going to happen is either: 1. Just you or 2. A team wide frenzy to try and get the last kill

[4ries]

Troll response...:

PGI should add powerups to this game. Powerups like Haste and Quad Damage. Oh and also Invisibility. But to be balanced they should put these things in places where only mechs with jumpjets can get. Imagine a locust that does 4x the damage they normally would do...


Sorry...

[Johnny Z]

PhoenixFire55, on 24 June 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Yeah, and thats been my point for quite some time. Its people themselves who create this peek-a-boo meta and people themselves who allow it to be so dominant. Nothing to do with the game. Except maybe "balanced" maps.



Heh. Thats something new. Just out of curiosity, who are my alts supposed to be mr.Tinfoil?



How would I know? These are your fantasies and delusions after all.

Very funny. Your defending cheats by saying those calling them out are having fantasies and delusions? Seriously? Setting a new standard in weak?

Your saying you don't have alts? I know you do because you told me.

Let me guess next your going to say I am the only one that knows/thinks there are some cheating and your just saying this to me only. Right?

By the way this isn't even off topic. This subject effects TTK a lot.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 June 2016 - 05:30 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Red Shrike, on 24 June 2016 - 03:40 PM, said:

At most the random teammates I get matched with (in QP anyway) can be used as distractions for the enemy. Outside of that, I have no friends in MWO, no.

There is no coordination in QP, so any charge that's going to happen is either: 1. Just you or 2. A team wide frenzy to try and get the last kill

To be honest, I didn't have any friends in this game either, so I joined a Unit and made some new ones. All that's on the individual pilot. When you get tired of solo pugging, go join a Unit. That's when the real fun begins!

[Red Shrike]

Nightmare1, on 24 June 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

To be honest, I didn't have any friends in this game either, so I joined a Unit and made some new ones. All that's on the individual pilot. When you get tired of solo pugging, go join a Unit. That's when the real fun begins!

There are a lot of things preventing me from joining a unit. Also, I've tried playing with friends in the past, before they gave up on this game, and it was no fun as our 2 man team was thrown in against 10 man teams.

Edited by Red Shrike, 25 June 2016 - 01:37 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Johnny Z, on 24 June 2016 - 05:25 PM, said:

Very funny. Your defending cheats by saying those calling them out are having fantasies and delusions? Seriously? Setting a new standard in weak?

Your saying you don't have alts? I know you do because you told me.

Let me guess next your going to say I am the only one that knows/thinks there are some cheating and your just saying this to me only. Right?

By the way this isn't even off topic. This subject effects TTK a lot.

Quote where I "told you" that I have alts.
Provide a video where that Jenner headshots you with SRMs.
Provide video proof of hacks/cheats.

Until then, please keep your paranoidal delusions to yourself.

[H I A S]

This thread gets better and better.
i poked against an whole team and died in seconds, nerf alphas! Hue Hue Hue

[Johnny Z]

PhoenixFire55, on 25 June 2016 - 01:57 AM, said:

Quote where I "told you" that I have alts.
Provide a video where that Jenner headshots you with SRMs.
Provide video proof of hacks/cheats.

Until then, please keep your paranoidal delusions to yourself.

This topic is about TTK and I include cheating because cheating shouldnt be able to effect gameplay balance decisions. But cheating does in fact effect TTK in game when and where it is done.

I didn't quote anyone as a target of this or anything like that yet you go full on attack mode and name calling when the subject is brought up.

Your role here is very clear.

I may see cheating more than most by the way because I do fairly well in matches and many players see the need to cheat to compete. Its pathetic that players find reasons to cheat, but it happens.

Better to get experience legit and become a good player. I have been playing since closed beta and try to stick to the same mechs to get good with them and perfect their load outs, is why I can do well in matches with a good team.

One of my best matches was only a couple days ago. Last one on my team in a fairly fresh Cicada X5 vrs 2 fresh Kodiaks and a cored Centurian. Was a win.

Edited by Johnny Z, 25 June 2016 - 04:27 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Red Shrike, on 25 June 2016 - 01:36 AM, said:

There are a lot of things preventing me from joining a unit. Also, I've tried playing with friends in the past, before they gave up on this game, and it was no fun as our 2 man team was thrown in against 10 man teams.

Like? There are a lot of casual Units that won't require anything from you. They don't make you show up at certain hours or contribute financially. The Brethren Pirates, Grog Corps, Outlaw Buccaneers, and, I think, the Praetorian Legion are some of them, just to name a few. You join, no strings attached, and then just run drops whenever convenient.

Johnny Z, on 25 June 2016 - 04:06 AM, said:

This topic is about TTK and I include cheating because cheating shouldnt be able to effect gameplay balance decisions. But cheating does in fact effect TTK in game when and where it is done.

Somehow, I don't think cheating has as big an effect on TTK as you think, lol.

Looking over your posts, you strike me as trying to change the tone of the thread to be about cheating, rather than about TTK. That's called "derailment." Frankly, I'm okay with that since I wish this thread had never been necro'd in the first place, and don't see it doing anything worthwhile. Just thought I'd warn you though, since derailing a thread is against the CoC.

[Red Shrike]

Nightmare1, on 25 June 2016 - 04:58 AM, said:

Like?

First and foremost my fear of strangers and kind of low self esteem means I will not engage in VoIP, unless I know everyone personally and for more than several months. VoIP is somewhat important when trying to drop as a group, although the new command wheel thingy kinda alleviates that.
And while there are certainly units out there who would take me in, no questions asked, I don't feel comfortable applying. Applying means I (personally) need a reason for them to even take me in. Let alone I'd first have to find a unit I like, which is very hard to do since I'd have to get to know everyone in the unit before even applying.

But, what's kinda most important when it comes to units is that it takes a lot of effort to get a group together when you don't know the people you're with. One time in a different game I tried to join a group/squad/whatever and play together for a few matches, not a clan, just a collection of players. So I went to their teamspeak, I waited and waited, but there was no one around to ask me what I was doing there (even though I don't do VoIP with strangers and thus wouldn't have responded anyway), and since I never went to their teamspeak, I didn't know what to do, so I eventually left and never went back to that teamspeak server.

I mean, I'm in a clan (not MWO related) myself but I know everyone, so I just drop by and we can probably get a game going within 10 minutes, but when I don't know anyone, I end up twirling my thumbs in the reception channel and eventually leave. Now that I think about it, it went like that once on one of the bigger MWO teamspeak servers.

But none of this has to do with TTK I'm afraid.

Edited by Red Shrike, 25 June 2016 - 05:23 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Red Shrike, on 25 June 2016 - 05:21 AM, said:

First and foremost my fear of strangers and kind of low self esteem means I will not engage in VoIP, unless I know everyone personally and for more than several months. VoIP is somewhat important when trying to drop as a group, although the new command wheel thingy kinda alleviates that.
And while there are certainly units out there who would take me in, no questions asked, I don't feel comfortable applying. Applying means I (personally) need a reason for them to even take me in. Let alone I'd first have to find a unit I like, which is very hard to do since I'd have to get to know everyone in the unit before even applying.

But, what's kinda most important when it comes to units is that it takes a lot of effort to get a group together when you don't know the people you're with. One time in a different game I tried to join a group/squad/whatever and play together for a few matches, not a clan, just a collection of players. So I went to their teamspeak, I waited and waited, but there was no one around to ask me what I was doing there (even though I don't do VoIP with strangers and thus wouldn't have responded anyway), and since I never went to their teamspeak, I didn't know what to do, so I eventually left and never went back to that teamspeak server.

I mean, I'm in a clan (not MWO related) myself but I know everyone, so I just drop by and we can probably get a game going within 10 minutes, but when I don't know anyone, I end up twirling my thumbs in the reception channel and eventually leave. Now that I think about it, it went like that once on one of the bigger MWO teamspeak servers.

But none of this has to do with TTK I'm afraid.

Roger all that; sorry, didn't mean to pry! Most folks don't like to join Units because they think they'll be required to show up at certain times or contribute financially. I get what you're saying though. Best of luck!

[davoodoo]

Problem with ttk??
Pinpoint alpha at 1000m...

If tt had such accuracy 1v1 would drop mechs in single turn and things like stock kgc would drop 3 locusts in single turn if they all happened to be in front of him.

Edited by davoodoo, 25 June 2016 - 07:02 AM.