56 replies to this topic

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Teer5, on 16 October 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

I have 2 ER-L lasers on both, plus ECM obviously

This is your problem. 2 ERLL on a Kit Fox with ECM can only come about from two possible builds, neither of which are good for differing reasons.

You can put it on two different arms, but that causes problems with having to fully expose legs and the entire torso to bring both weapons to bear. Not good for a slow light.

You can put both ERLLs on the KFX-C LA or KFX-Prime LA, both of which have 2E hardpoints. The problem with this is that the KFX's left arm E-mounts are actually on the UNDERSIDE of the already low left arm, which means that you have to expose the whole torso and some of the legs to fire over a hill. Not good. Plus, given the way that counterclockwise NASCAR is everywhere, you will find yourself at a disadvantage when having to right peek. An exception occurs on HPG, where you can find up-ramps that let you side peek on the right side of the NASCAR to hit to the left, but that's a very specific condition.

C-ERLL is also notorious for having very long burn time, which in a large, slow light is not a good thing. If you must use long-range lasers, do consider using C-LPL instead. That extreme range difference is far offset by the shorter burn duration and higher damage of the C-LPL. Or, if you can, switch over to C-ERPPCs. These minimise your required face time, and allow you to drop PPFLDs on the enemy from quite some distance away.

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 16 October 2016 - 09:48 PM.

[Stealthrider]

I've been running one the past few days with either two LRM 15s w/Artemis+1 ERML+ECM or three LRM 10s+1ERML w/o ECM, can't decide which I like better. God this thing packs a punch, most fun I've had in a light since I bought an Urbie.

Edited by Stealthrider, 31 October 2016 - 02:01 AM.

[NighthawK1337]

The Purifier builds are exactly what I was thinking about when I was about to preorder the Purifier. The high torso energy mounts is exactly what the Kitfox needs. What I like about the dual ERPPC build is you're essentially an Adder with jumpjets and ECM, or a mini Shadowcat. The build I'm also looking forward to is 6 ERMeds with 6 DHS + ECM. Another possible build is 3 AMS, ECM, 7 ERSL, basically allowing you to support while still packing a huge punch.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

NighthawK1337, on 31 October 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

The Purifier builds are exactly what I was thinking about when I was about to preorder the Purifier. The high torso energy mounts is exactly what the Kitfox needs. What I like about the dual ERPPC build is you're essentially an Adder with jumpjets and ECM, or a mini Shadowcat. The build I'm also looking forward to is 6 ERMeds with 6 DHS + ECM. Another possible build is 3 AMS, ECM, 7 ERSL, basically allowing you to support while still packing a huge punch.

The main problem with doing the JJ-ERPPC build is that it will run HOT. VERY HOT.

Consider that with a deadside and two ERPPCs, you'd be running with only 4 additional heatsinks in a KFX. This is a total of 14 DHS (7 engine + 7 external), which is 0.20 * 7 + 0.15 * 7 = 2.45 heat/sec dissipation. With the 15% heat dissipation quirk, this goes up to ~2.85 heat/sec on a neutral map. Now consider that 2 C-ERPPCs cause the mech to gain heat at 7.50 heat/sec. You're going to have to wait for quite some time before being able to safely fire again, as it is.

Now if you were running KFX-S legs, you will be discarding 0.345 of that already poor heat dissipation, due to the fact that you will be running 2 DHS less than normal. With only 2.40 heat/sec dissipation, you'll have to wait for almost a full 8 seconds between double fires to maintain heat neutrality, or about a 30 second wait from near overheat to cold. Not to mention that jump jetting actually adds enough heat to cancel cooling.

I must therefore ask whether the added 4 JJs is worth the poor poptarting ability, as light JJs have been turned into hoverjets some time ago. The Kit Fox is short as it is; most hills that won't hide other mechs will hide you. Just run up a ramp at an angle, fire a shot, and then duck back down.

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 31 October 2016 - 03:37 PM.

[NighthawK1337]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 31 October 2016 - 03:35 PM, said:

The main problem with doing the JJ-ERPPC build is that it will run HOT. VERY HOT.

Consider that with a deadside and two ERPPCs, you'd be running with only 4 additional heatsinks in a KFX. This is a total of 14 DHS (7 engine + 7 external), which is 0.20 * 7 + 0.15 * 7 = 2.45 heat/sec dissipation. With the 15% heat dissipation quirk, this goes up to ~2.85 heat/sec on a neutral map. Now consider that 2 C-ERPPCs cause the mech to gain heat at 7.50 heat/sec. You're going to have to wait for quite some time before being able to safely fire again, as it is.

Now if you were running KFX-S legs, you will be discarding 0.345 of that already poor heat dissipation, due to the fact that you will be running 2 DHS less than normal. With only 2.40 heat/sec dissipation, you'll have to wait for almost a full 8 seconds between double fires to maintain heat neutrality, or about a 30 second wait from near overheat to cold. Not to mention that jump jetting actually adds enough heat to cancel cooling.

I must therefore ask whether the added 4 JJs is worth the poor poptarting ability, as light JJs have been turned into hoverjets some time ago. The Kit Fox is short as it is; most hills that won't hide other mechs will hide you. Just run up a ramp at an angle, fire a shot, and then duck back down.

I think it's doable, 8 seconds between shots is not bad and I've tried 2 ERPPC Cutefox before and that's usually the time between aiming properly and relocating before getting shot back. A significant number of Shadowcats i've seen runs the same build with only 3 external DHS and no 15% extra dissipation. Would also run cooler with LPLs. I think you only need 2 JJs to poptart with it, as you have said you're a lot smaller than poptart mediums and 2 JJs would mostly be enough. JJs could also be used to get to vantage points that the Adder can't go to like the wall in HPG or the cliffs at Viridian Bog or in the new Terra Therma, near the mouth of the volcano. The sustained DPS is small, but overall I'd say it's still more useful than the landlubber no ECM 2 ERPPC Adder. I think the ST solves my biggest problem running the build, the really low slung LA energy hardpoint.

I think 6 ERMeds will also be really hot, 3.16 Heat Dissipation vs 8.67 Heat Generation, but a 42 alpha on a light from 400m is really good, it's like having a pocket medium.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ce90ac5d38f8c8c

4 ERMeds would be a lot cooler and has more sustained fire, 3.5 Heat Dissipation vs 5.78 Heat Generation.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6d0192d26980c4c

I'd prefer the 6 ERMeds though because facetime isn't what I want when I'm piloting a cute fox so a higher alpha is usually better when playing as a medium range DPS.

The ECM 3 AMS 7 ERSL on the other hand is probably what I'd run with most of the time. Cool enough that you don't need that much DHS, but will actually help the team while still providing a 35 alpha at manageable range.

I'm on the fence about SPLs, I don't think the Cutefox has enough speed to put it to maximum use, I've had problems against circle strafing mediums and heavies so I think I'd prefer ERSLs.

This theory crafting is really getting me excited. I just hope that the mounts is as high as the ballistic mounts in the S side torsos.

Edited by NighthawK1337, 01 November 2016 - 01:32 AM.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Updated to include Purifier builds.

[Yumoshiri]

the kfx-c side torso has -5% heat generation on lasers. This means you could run it with 5 medium lasers and use this wonderful quirk. a nice bonus is the increased structure, making you keep your side torso slightly longer.

However, as others pointed out, im super annoyed by the low lasers on the arms, and losing that awesome purifier side torso to -5% heat generation is still questionable.

My favorite purifier build currently runs at 6 small lasers and 2 machine guns. 4x side torso on 1 shot, and 2x small laser + 2x machine gun from the arm.

[NighthawK1337]

I have tried a lot of builds with the Purifier and this is what I think of them

2 LPL
Heat is very manageable but takes too long to deal damage with only 26 alpha

1 LPL + 3 ERMeds
Hotter than 2 LPL but can deal more damage. Range difference is annoying though, 1 LPL isn't that good at sniping, might as well go all out ERMeds

2 ERPPCs
Really hot but you can poptart and hill hump quite good. I got the best results using chainfire when hill humping. Getting ignored with this build is so common because there's no burn time, small stature compared to heavier mechs and ECM cover,

6 ERMeds
Too hot, even hotter than 2 ERPPCs because it has lower cooldowns. Doesn't break ghost heat but you need to wait a few seconds before you can alpha a second time.

5 ERMeds
Like goldilock's preferred porridge. Can alpha 3 times.

4 ERMeds
Quite cool but I find that it lacks a punch, also it kinda wastes resting heat.

7 SPLs
Good DPS but range is too low, I find myself dying a lot faster compared to the other builds.

7 ERSLs + 3 AMS
Really useful but don't expect to do top damage or get a lot of kills. Since the LRM buff its been lurmageddon again so I find this build winning more games than the other builds

4 SRM6s + 4 SPLs
Better alpha and can manage heat better than 7 SPLs but also suffers the lack of range. Also you're a lot noticable without ECMs so you need to be more careful with your movement with this one.


In conclusion, I think the Purifier just made the Adder obsolete... Yay. The high mounts are good but I think the hardpoints themselves are what made it great since you can put the tonnage to good use now.

[STEF_]

NighthawK1337, on 31 October 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

The Purifier builds are exactly what I was thinking about when I was about to preorder the Purifier. The high torso energy mounts is exactly what the Kitfox needs. What I like about the dual ERPPC build is you're essentially an Adder with jumpjets and ECM, or a mini Shadowcat. The build I'm also looking forward to is 6 ERMeds with 6 DHS + ECM. Another possible build is 3 AMS, ECM, 7 ERSL, basically allowing you to support while still packing a huge punch.

Esactly the builds I was thinking.
I hope to get it on black friday sale.... this Fox is yummy

[Yogge Mothi]

NighthawK1337, on 18 November 2016 - 12:37 AM, said:

5 ERMeds
Like goldilock's preferred porridge. Can alpha 3 times.

5xERML Smurfy build: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=476&l=ee1bcdb40b0cc432498e3f78b887025f8975d526
Please note: For some reason the smurfy link isn't saving the actuators.

You're absolutely right. I started w the ERSL +AMS +ECM support build, but this 5x ERML build is what I'm getting the best results with.

Edited by Yogge Mothi, 18 November 2016 - 04:21 PM.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Updated to include 8-SPL and 8-ERSL builds of the Kit Fox.

[DivineTomatoes]

I've found the best way to do things is simple.

Buy purifier.
4x srm6 and 6 tons of ammo and JJ legs.
Put your big boy pants on and slap your massive brazen brass balls in the direction of anyone who opposes you.
Go and purify anything in front of you head on.

For some reason some people discount the KitFox as a threat, so unload a flight of missiles into their face, jump over them and kick them in the ***. Then proceed to purify at your leisure.

[StealthdragonB]

I sort of made and use a pop tart kit fox

It's basically a kit fox S with a ER PPC in each arm and a bit of extra armor, with the additional -10% energy heat generation quirk with normal omnipods.

I find it's really just a smaller, faster, less protected nova A, with similar heat generation, I recon it would be kinda flat out better than the 2xER PPC build you posted, (and you can still have both PPCs on one arm if you want, I just prefer them split up) but then again it requires you to own a kit fox S.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

Fox has definitely got an idea behind running it that way. The convergence is absolutely superb.

I still can't believe how good he is in general with KFXs.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

StealthdragonB, on 31 January 2017 - 05:37 AM, said:

I sort of made and use a pop tart kit fox

It's basically a kit fox S with a ER PPC in each arm and a bit of extra armor, with the additional -10% energy heat generation quirk with normal omnipods.

I find it's really just a smaller, faster, less protected nova A, with similar heat generation, I recon it would be kinda flat out better than the 2xER PPC build you posted, (and you can still have both PPCs on one arm if you want, I just prefer them split up) but then again it requires you to own a kit fox S.

Let's just put it this way.

Kit Fox suffers badly from heat generation on builds with big energy weapons (LPL, ERLL, ERPPC, or even massed ERMLs). With 2x ERPPC, and some armour (read: all except 5 + quirks) stripped from arms, and 5 shaved from legs + 17 from head, you get 4 free tons left over after 2 ERPPCs. This leaves you with only 7 truedubs + 7 poordubs on a mech that's generating ~7.50 heat/sec; which is a paltry (7 * 0.20 + 7 * 0.15 = 2.45 heat/sec) heat dissipation, before quirks or skills. With having weapons on both arms, this means that you have to put either more armor on each arm for one fewer heatsink on your already poor heatsink count, or go with less armour than usual.

And then you propose putting on jumpjets. Note that the Class V jumpjets are completely worthless at this point; they produce so little thrust that you need 6-8 of them to produce an appreciable amount of lift. With only four provided by KFX-S legs, you will end up with very little thrust for an extra 2 tons spent on jumpjets; all you are at that point is a floating, wide, easy-to-hit target with a predictable trajectory. You cannot easily change directions while in the air, if at all. Not to mention that using JJs actually generates enough heat to stop you from cooling down, in addition to the heatsinks lost to tonnage, and that your legs become even more squishy than they already are.

[StealthdragonB]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 02 February 2017 - 12:45 AM, said:

Let's just put it this way.

Kit Fox suffers badly from heat generation on builds with big energy weapons (LPL, ERLL, ERPPC, or even massed ERMLs). With 2x ERPPC, and some armour (read: all except 5 + quirks) stripped from arms, and 5 shaved from legs + 17 from head, you get 4 free tons left over after 2 ERPPCs. This leaves you with only 7 truedubs + 7 poordubs on a mech that's generating ~7.50 heat/sec; which is a paltry (7 * 0.20 + 7 * 0.15 = 2.45 heat/sec) heat dissipation, before quirks or skills. With having weapons on both arms, this means that you have to put either more armor on each arm for one fewer heatsink on your already poor heatsink count, or go with less armour than usual.

And then you propose putting on jumpjets. Note that the Class V jumpjets are completely worthless at this point; they produce so little thrust that you need 6-8 of them to produce an appreciable amount of lift. With only four provided by KFX-S legs, you will end up with very little thrust for an extra 2 tons spent on jumpjets; all you are at that point is a floating, wide, easy-to-hit target with a predictable trajectory. You cannot easily change directions while in the air, if at all. Not to mention that using JJs actually generates enough heat to stop you from cooling down, in addition to the heatsinks lost to tonnage, and that your legs become even more squishy than they already are.

You forgot the 2 extra jump jets (a total of 6) in the side torsos, also I'm not really familiar with what is good or bad heat for a ppc, tends to generate 20-30% depending on ambient heat, which in my mind is normal, I seem to do well with it, but then again I use some builds with ridiculous heat generation (I have a triple PPC hellbringer and a Dire wolf with 6 medium pulse lasers bound to one firing group). I find I don't get shot a lot, possibly because other people are drawing fire or because no body suspects me.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

StealthdragonB, on 02 February 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

You forgot the 2 extra jump jets (a total of 6) in the side torsos, also I'm not really familiar with what is good or bad heat for a ppc, tends to generate 20-30% depending on ambient heat, which in my mind is normal, I seem to do well with it, but then again I use some builds with ridiculous heat generation (I have a triple PPC hellbringer and a Dire wolf with 6 medium pulse lasers bound to one firing group). I find I don't get shot a lot, possibly because other people are drawing fire or because no body suspects me.

If you have the S side torsi, you are not getting the 10% heat reduction provided by the KFX-C STs. This is huge for an ERPPC kit fox, as it accounts for what is essentially a 33% boost to effective DPS (relative to overall cooling power). That, and your STs get popped even faster than usual due to the KFX-S STs' lesser struct bonuses. The C STs actually allow you to pop out an extra alpha before having to duck out for cooling, and even that takes almost a good 6 seconds less with 14 heatsinks over 10 heatsinks.

For the record, the 2-PPC builds with KFX-C STs x 2, and 4 additional DHS, will allow you to rapid-fire 8 PPC bolts before having to stop firing on cold maps, and 6 on Terra Therma. Cooling down doesn't take an overly long time, either.

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 02 February 2017 - 06:03 AM.

[Flak Kannon]

Hi Fox.

Ijust bought all the Kits so I will delve into this thread deeply.

My first 8 matches in the Prime weren't great. I build it with 3 AMS, 3 ML, 2 MG and a TON of AMS ammo with Overload and range modules. But, seeing I pay in Tier 1 matches, there seems to be little LRMs around. I struggled.

I switched it up to 2 ML 1 Lbx10 2 1/2 tons ammo, and really really did well. I will look at all your ideas shortly..

I tend to like to keep stock sets of 8 omni pods and work around the limitations of that. Its a pride thing.


Enjoi

[Nean]

I finally bought a kit fox again, and I'm wondering what happened to the old crazy builds? Dual ultra ac2s, UAC20, gauss rifle with legs... what happened to all that? I've ran at least one of these even with the new tech and it seems perfectly viable.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

It's still possible, but the Adder has always been able to do ballistic builds better because it has more podspace, and now the Cougar has come along and is able to do it with even more podpsace, ECM, and jets... the only reason to do a ballistic Fox, IMO, was the one shoulder mount with the S pods, which is an option if you want to go that way. You can run a KFX-S RT and do UAC10 with 2xERML... but you need a PR LT to really make that shine, because then you can stick the lasers on the other shoulder, peek better, and strip some armor for the tonnage to bring ECM or a third ton of ammo.

There are just better options, though.