100 replies to this topic

[Roadkill]

Prosperity Park, on 16 May 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

You call it "more fun" to crush new players; I call it rude.

Yep. That's why I only played one match. I just wanted to see/confirm what Alistair was talking about in the OP - that there is a noticeable qualitative difference that isn't just the ability to shoot straight.

This account (Roadkill) started in T3 when the tiers were implemented, and I can't say that I really noticed much change as I XP'd my way up. There's a slight difference as you move into T1, but I noticed nothing at all between T3 and T2.

But wow... T5 is like the Twilight Zone. 5 minutes of play, no one dead yet, and no one (that I could see) on my team below 80%. Gunfire everywhere, but none of it hitting anything but air/buildings. And no communication at all. None. Zippo.

Freaky.

[Alistair Winter]

pwnface, on 16 May 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

Who is actually posting stuff like that though?

I haven't seen anyone bragging about sandbagging.

I agree, it's fairly rare. I have seen it though.

Then again, I spend more time on the forum than doctors recommend.

[Soldier91]

I was playing non-tier5 players when I was tier 5. A lot of them were better than ELO players before the new tier system. Honestly tier 4 I get a lot of losses but it's been way easier than tier 5. I tend to exit out of a match and bounce into another mech to play again but if it were a bad match up for me or I just got unlucky it's way more likely for me. For some reason tier 4 is must just giving me more points for doing that because my average match where I can do extremely high damage counts for more. A lot of the time though like my assault mech gets outscored and out damaged by a light mech, which is pretty pathetic in itself but that person would of done better in something bigger.

[Aresye]

pwnface, on 16 May 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

Are you defining a Tier 1 match as all 24 players are Tier 1?
That is pretty much the polar opposite of what prosperity park is stating.

My definition of a Tier 1 match isn't that all players are T1. In fact it has nothing to do with tier at all, and if it does, just vaguely.

My definition of a T1 match (in solo queue) is:
- At least half the game's entire population (12/24 players) are recognizable comp players from Div A or B level units.
- Overall coordination and team synergy is as good (or better) than Div C level units.

You pretty much only see them during solo-only leaderboard events. I like to call them "All-Star" matches, and it's unmistakable when you find yourself in one.

For example, when you load into the game and see player names like:
psychih0lic
Fission
GMan129
Proton
UBCSlayer
FearNotDeath
JagerXII
Energy
Ariloc
etc...

...you know you're gonna have a bad time.

[pwnface]

Aresye, on 16 May 2016 - 02:30 PM, said:

My definition of a Tier 1 match isn't that all players are T1. In fact it has nothing to do with tier at all, and if it does, just vaguely.

My definition of a T1 match (in solo queue) is:
- At least half the game's entire population (12/24 players) are recognizable comp players from Div A or B level units.
- Overall coordination and team synergy is as good (or better) than Div C level units.

You pretty much only see them during solo-only leaderboard events. I like to call them "All-Star" matches, and it's unmistakable when you find yourself in one.

For example, when you load into the game and see player names like:
psychih0lic
Fission
GMan129
Proton
UBCSlayer
FearNotDeath
JagerXII
Energy
Ariloc
etc...

...you know you're gonna have a bad time.

I think you'll find that your definition is wildly different from the majority of other people. While it is always fun to drop into all-star matches with uber elite comp players that rarely happens. Unfortunately there is a huge gap between "Tier 1" and "high level competitive" players.

I think most people's definition of a "Tier 1" match would have some kind of relation to the "Tier 1" PSR rating.

[Dingo Battler]

GAGONMYlOCK, on 16 May 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

You dont stay tier 4-5 very long with an alt if you are good. A half dozen matches.

That's not how its done. You use a commando for the first 20 matches, till you hit the very depths of tier 5, literally an empty tier 5 bar. Your first 20 matches matter much more than your next 500, as a smurf deterrent system. Then you seal club your way up the next 1,000 matches till you hit tier 3. Should provide hours of clubbing.

I don't do it often, because it affects my ability to play in real matches,

Edited by KBurn85, 16 May 2016 - 05:02 PM.

[Shakespeare]

KBurn85, on 16 May 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

I don't do it often, because it affects my ability to play in real matches,

...and, of course, there's your conscience to consider.

[Aresye]

pwnface, on 16 May 2016 - 04:07 PM, said:

I think you'll find that your definition is wildly different from the majority of other people. While it is always fun to drop into all-star matches with uber elite comp players that rarely happens. Unfortunately there is a huge gap between "Tier 1" and "high level competitive" players.

I think most people's definition of a "Tier 1" match would have some kind of relation to the "Tier 1" PSR rating.

Hence why I said, "My definition of a Tier 1 match..."

Take a side for one of those all-star matches, and pit them up against a full team of casual T1 players. What do you think is going to happen?

That's why the tier system is stupid, because even if a player fully maxes out their T1 bar, they probably aren't anywhere near the level required to even play Div C games in MRBC. Then you have the Div B players, and the Div A players. Hell, it doesn't even stop there, as even in Div A the playing ability of each player fluctuates wildly.

Proton, psychih0lic, and a few others are definitely at a level higher than most other players, but we're not talking like CS:GO profession level equivalent here. There's no salary, there's no team manager, etc. These players play a lot, and that's why they've gotten very good at the game, but let's not kid ourselves here. If MWO suddenly became a huge esports success, you can certainly bet that the skill required to play at the professional level would increase even further, because at that point it's a job.

With the system right now however, this theoretical "professional MWO player" would be ranked the same as a casual player who just so happens to have played the game long enough. It doesn't accurately reflect skill, it's GOING to lead to future crap matchmaking, and it needlessly inflates player's egos when they reach it, creating a moldy sandwich that eventually nobody is going to want to eat anymore.

Should simply be a bell curve. 5% T1, 20% T2, 50% T3, 20% T4, 5% T5.

[Widowmaker1981]

Navid A1, on 14 May 2016 - 04:10 PM, said:

True.

Damn... fighting for the leaderboard is a bit harder in T1 with this tier system.
You have to wrestle your score out of the claws of some god-tier players... good luck with that!

Leaderboard competitions are a complete joke, because of tiers. If i wanted to top a leaderboard competition, i could do it easily, by simply starting an alt account a few days in advance and being 'overly aggressive in trial locusts' for the first 25 games, then using whatever mech the ladder is for in the depths of T5. Im not going to do that, but i know i could, and i bet others do. To be honest, (and i know this is harsh but its the only way to make them viable), only T1-T3 players should be eligible. Or at least separate the tiers (T1 leaderboard, etc)

[smokefield]

just 3 kills and 900 dmg in that game ?! shame on you !!!!

...i would have expected at least double the amount !!!

Edited by smokefield, 17 May 2016 - 12:17 AM.

[L3mming2]

Aresye, on 16 May 2016 - 02:30 PM, said:

My definition of a Tier 1 match isn't that all players are T1. In fact it has nothing to do with tier at all, and if it does, just vaguely.

My definition of a T1 match (in solo queue) is:
- At least half the game's entire population (12/24 players) are recognizable comp players from Div A or B level units.
- Overall coordination and team synergy is as good (or better) than Div C level units.

You pretty much only see them during solo-only leaderboard events. I like to call them "All-Star" matches, and it's unmistakable when you find yourself in one.

For example, when you load into the game and see player names like:
psychih0lic
Fission
GMan129
Proton
UBCSlayer
FearNotDeath
JagerXII
Energy
Ariloc
etc...

...you know you're gonna have a bad time.

you are describing a comp mach not a "tier 1" mach. nobody said a tier 1 mach was the highest posible skill lvl mach...

[L3mming2]

Aresye, on 16 May 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

Hence why I said, "My definition of a Tier 1 match..."

Take a side for one of those all-star matches, and pit them up against a full team of casual T1 players. What do you think is going to happen?

That's why the tier system is stupid, because even if a player fully maxes out their T1 bar, they probably aren't anywhere near the level required to even play Div C games in MRBC. Then you have the Div B players, and the Div A players. Hell, it doesn't even stop there, as even in Div A the playing ability of each player fluctuates wildly.

Proton, psychih0lic, and a few others are definitely at a level higher than most other players, but we're not talking like CS:GO profession level equivalent here. There's no salary, there's no team manager, etc. These players play a lot, and that's why they've gotten very good at the game, but let's not kid ourselves here. If MWO suddenly became a huge esports success, you can certainly bet that the skill required to play at the professional level would increase even further, because at that point it's a job.

With the system right now however, this theoretical "professional MWO player" would be ranked the same as a casual player who just so happens to have played the game long enough. It doesn't accurately reflect skill, it's GOING to lead to future crap matchmaking, and it needlessly inflates player's egos when they reach it, creating a moldy sandwich that eventually nobody is going to want to eat anymore.

Should simply be a bell curve. 5% T1, 20% T2, 50% T3, 20% T4, 5% T5.

its anoing enoug right now that i have to wait 1min + to get a QP mach dont decrace my bucet further pl...

[Ghogiel]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 May 2016 - 12:09 AM, said:

Leaderboard competitions are a complete joke, because of tiers. If i wanted to top a leaderboard competition, i could do it easily, by simply starting an alt account a few days in advance and being 'overly aggressive in trial locusts' for the first 25 games, then using whatever mech the ladder is for in the depths of T5. Im not going to do that, but i know i could, and i bet others do. To be honest, (and i know this is harsh but its the only way to make them viable), only T1-T3 players should be eligible. Or at least separate the tiers (T1 leaderboard, etc)

Yep. Leaderboard tiers need separating or it's bollocks

Assuming no other T1 player is doing the samething, it's pretty certain to place first in an alt. Or at least 2nd.

Last time I did T4-T3 grind in an alt> I had a match where I did over 2400dmg. Got a legit death star and half a dozen 9 and 10 kill matches in the 1600dmg range. Only had to play 75 matches as well, so easily possible in the time frame of a leaderboard event.

[Rhaythe]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 May 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

#Meta4Lyf

#LocustLivesMatter, bro.

[Aresye]

L3mming2, on 17 May 2016 - 01:08 AM, said:

you are describing a comp mach not a "tier 1" mach. nobody said a tier 1 mach was the highest posible skill lvl mach...

L3mming2, on 17 May 2016 - 01:11 AM, said:

its anoing enoug right now that i have to wait 1min + to get a QP mach dont decrace my bucet further pl...

The point I'm trying to make is that, in order for a match to be considered a T1 match, there must be an overwhelming majority of T1 players compared to T2 and T3 players that may also be in that match.

These types of matches rarely happen outside of dedicated solo queue events, which is why it almost always takes awhile to find a match as a T1 player. You're literally waiting for the release valves to open up for T2 and T3 players damned near every time.

[L3mming2]

Aresye, on 17 May 2016 - 12:00 PM, said:

The point I'm trying to make is that, in order for a match to be considered a T1 match, there must be an overwhelming majority of T1 players compared to T2 and T3 players that may also be in that match.

These types of matches rarely happen outside of dedicated solo queue events, which is why it almost always takes awhile to find a match as a T1 player. You're literally waiting for the release valves to open up for T2 and T3 players damned near every time.

true but if thats the case then why making the t1 even smaller then it is now the only thing that will happen is that now you will have to wait for those valves every single time.. if we had a 10x lager player base then yes i agrea but at the moment using a bell curve would mean t1's and 5's would have to wait loger to get a mach every mach..

[Ghogiel]

L3mming2, on 17 May 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

true but if thats the case then why making the t1 even smaller then it is now the only thing that will happen is that now you will have to wait for those valves every single time.. if we had a 10x lager player base then yes i agrea but at the moment using a bell curve would mean t1's and 5's would have to wait loger to get a mach every mach..

Yep. The PSR system is the answer to the bellcurve of Elo. Specifically the outliers on either end of the spectrum, which russ admitted had unacceptable wait times.
If you were very high or near maxed out in you'll remember how bad it was. wait times were 10x worse than they are now AND all that did was result in long wait for valves to open and get matches full of potatoes anyway.

[Aresye]

L3mming2, on 17 May 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

true but if thats the case then why making the t1 even smaller then it is now the only thing that will happen is that now you will have to wait for those valves every single time.. if we had a 10x lager player base then yes i agrea but at the moment using a bell curve would mean t1's and 5's would have to wait loger to get a mach every mach..

The percentages could be tweaked to account for the smaller player population in order to facilitate matchmaking times. The important thing would be maintaining a consistent percentage in each category.

For example, imagine the player base becomes static (no new players, all existing players remain). Eventually, given a long enough timeline, 100% of players will reach tier 1 max. On the other hand, with a system designed to maintain a consistent percentage, even if the player base was static, the same percentage of players in each tier would remain the same.

This would rank players more accurately than the current system. If somebody in T2 performs well enough to reach T1, then somebody in T1 that hasn't been performing well (or stopped playing for a long enough time) will move down to T2.

[L3mming2]

Aresye, on 17 May 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

The percentages could be tweaked to account for the smaller player population in order to facilitate matchmaking times. The important thing would be maintaining a consistent percentage in each category.

For example, imagine the player base becomes static (no new players, all existing players remain). Eventually, given a long enough timeline, 100% of players will reach tier 1 max. On the other hand, with a system designed to maintain a consistent percentage, even if the player base was static, the same percentage of players in each tier would remain the same.

This would rank players more accurately than the current system. If somebody in T2 performs well enough to reach T1, then somebody in T1 that hasn't been performing well (or stopped playing for a long enough time) will move down to T2.

got no problem with that, but at this verry moment my mach waiting times tell me the population of T1 players is still rather low. so for now a posible tier system would be 3 tiers where t1s never face t3 and t2 suplement ore T1 maches ore t3 maches, no more w8 times, population is split evenly over the 3 tiers acording to there skill lvl. more tiers can only be implemented when the player base grows. this is what curently happens anny way exept now you have to wait for the valves to open....

[Ghogiel]

L3mming2, on 17 May 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:

got no problem with that, but at this verry moment my mach waiting times tell me the population of T1 players is still rather low. .

People in tier 2 or lower are apparently finding matches pretty quick.

Since the KDK patch not one of my waits has been less than 10min. Most are closer to 15min.

So no dice. I'd rather more people T1 than now since I am getting +10min waits then chucked into T2-3 matches most of the time anyway. And the problem of everyone being T1 is probably so far into the future MWO might not even be around for it to be an issue. Just cross that bridge when we come to it.