82 replies to this topic

[Nightshade24]

Bud Crue, on 16 May 2016 - 05:50 AM, said:

As to your initial comments: aye, I hear ya, I agree and I sympathize. I think however that the content we have (with the exceptions of new mechs) is all there really is ever going to be. FP is essentially done with only minor tweeks from here on out, so I expect nothing more there (unless of course PGI decides to surprise us).

As to your missing Phract, I know you are not keen on Heros, but the IM really is excellent. The 4X for a trollish 3LBX is fun too. I'm up to 118 mechs all mastered, and am still trying to put unique load outs on every mech (this is where much of my concern over the Phract being outclassed comes from). I expect my predilection for novelty in my builds (plus my general terribadness at this game) will assure that I will always be T3. Next up for me are Victors and Vindicators so I will get a feel for what a really outclassed mech feels like. Just in time for the Kodiak! I expect you and many, many, others are going to be in the Kodiak zone for a good long while. Thank Blake for group queue, at least that will limit them a bit...I hope.

Well, Faction play has still much to offer!

PGI said they will not do patches in huge waves, they didn't say they stopped making huge changes (and said there is still a lot to come!)
With PvE in production we may start to see escort missions and better invasion matches. With the up coming union and overlord dropships we can easily expect FP to have very unique game modes with these bad boys involved.
And the interactions of solaris to FP as well as many more maps (ie how about playing on Tukayiid for the battle of tukayiid, for eg) and stuff would expand a lot. I doubt FP is 'done', It's just at a stable satisfactory state atm.

It's kind of funny. I got vastly unique builds across every single of my 200 (minus like 10 which is 100% stock or stripped atm which I will have to get to editing soon and do not count as my builds/ load outs on these mechs as they are not intended as such) and I am having no problem with the cataphract atm. (mainly because most are inspired from stock, lore, canon, the mechs general aesthetic. It may explain why a Marauder in my mech bay is vastly different to a Cataphract.
Because both are vastly different stock, Both are used similarly but quite differently in lore and their aesthetics and such.
Of course this doesn't really skew my view on which mech is better. I do not pretend a Marauder can not use an AC 20.

I do not want the hero one (It is nice but-) due to the fact MW: O shifted away from Karma koin my main way of buying MC and mech packs sort of... stopped. On top of that I got in my 200 mechs like 8 specials, 1 planed to be (urbie collectors upgrade)and and a dozen or so hereoes including the Jester, Misery, Hellslinger, Huginn, Pirates Bane, Sparky, etc...

I am not too mad to get the Cataphract (I might if it was a hero from lore like the boars head but sadly not)

The 4X catches my eye (I want to do something more softer then the two builds I mentioned for it, I want to do maybe an SRM 4, Large pulse laser, and quad AC 2... the alternative is more unique with an SRM 4, twin LBX 10, twin Machine guns, large pulse laser. BAP just because the excess tonnage. CTF-4X looks kinda nice for my build (if it doesn't turn out well I can drop the BAP and large pulse laser for an ER large laser and use AC 10's instead of LBX 10's. I just want to try it out with the LBX first)

I do not want the 1X as my 0XP and 3D is very similar to that, if I get 3 cataphracts I would want them to be as wide and different to the other ones. So the 2X and 4X is what is catching my eye

We could easily get some matches soon this weekend if you would like to see my Cataphracts in Action.

Last note though 1 future advantage of a cataphract over the marauder and warhammer is the fact the Cataphract 3L is in the game files and is in a way a 1X with MASC however. that's something I should mention. It was not added yet due to having

Vaskadar, on 16 May 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

Phracts should have good structure quirks to make up for their XL engine dependency, and better generic quirks to compensate for fewer hardpoints than their counterparts.

Maybe on the 1X (the most 'standard' or 'bland' out of all of them, making it more tankier would be a good attraction for it... however I am kind of against specifically making a mech run XL instead of Standard engine.

Joshua McEvedy, on 16 May 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

This one...the original experimental 0X:

I swear that's the 3rd timethis is posted here.

Bud Crue, on 16 May 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

Okay. So because you are used to a mech with low hard points that makes it as good as a mech of the same weight with objectively better hard points? No. It just means that you are used to it, not that low hard points are good or even acceptable.

well to be quite honest high hardpoints is pretty marginable (as I said earlier) better. It's situational. It only helps when you are around low ridge syou can peak over, You still got corners to peak around if you love peaking and there is the whole fact that this game isn't 100% about peaking and ridges.
It's partly why I do not have a strict problem with most low hard point mechs in game. I was going to say when was the only time I had a problem with it but then I realised I had nothing really to say. My only problem about hardpoint location is also involved with weapon models.

The EBJ for eg for the arm that has E in the arms if you got a ER PPC as your main weapon it should be where the ballistics are normally are adn be longer. instead you got energy stubs above and bellow. You also got the mist lynx with huge weapon models and stuff. Also when things randomly go somewhere else... for eg 3 B in the marauder... 1 is the normal location... 2 is up there as well... 3 is low ST... what? I can understand it can't all be bunched up tightly but I expected it to be a little bit higher...
Or the Mauler how it randomly has 2 high ballistic hardpoints with 6 ballistic... like two AC 2's up there will be any different when the other 4 are down low.

[Bud Crue]

Nightshade24, on 16 May 2016 - 09:07 PM, said:

well to be quite honest high hardpoints is pretty marginable (as I said earlier) better. It's situational. It only helps when you are around low ridge syou can peak over, You still got corners to peak around if you love peaking and there is the whole fact that this game isn't 100% about peaking and ridges.
It's partly why I do not have a strict problem with most low hard point mechs in game. I was going to say when was the only time I had a problem with it but then I realised I had nothing really to say. My only problem about hardpoint location is also involved with weapon models.

This is really the only point where I think we disagree and it is a subtle one I suppose. The nut of it is that I simply see higher hardpoint locations as being of greater significance than you (I think). To me if two mechs that are otherwise equal or at least potentially very similar in stature and potential builds, and one has the majority of its hardpoints lower than the other (even marginally so); that mech with lower hard points will be objectively worse in over all performance than the mech with the higher mounts. That's really it.

So in the case of the Phract: yes all us Phract phans (so sorry, I couldn't not go there) have gotten used to its low mounts, but the Warhammer (and to an extent the Marauder) with similar builds to a Phract will perform objectively better, because most -if not all- of its points are higher up on the mech body. Be it going up out of a channel on Polar, climbing the hills on Terra, shooting a sniper on top of mount try hard on Alpine, etc. there are a lot of situations wherein low hard points are a perceptible limitation; the higher the hard points the less the terrain interferes. Thus, if you have a choice between a build with low points (mixed ballistics and laser Phract builds) and the same build but wherein the weapons will end up higher on the mech (Warhammer) then you are better off taking the build with the higher points.

I think this objective drawback that the Phract currently suffers from (regardless of how used to it one may be) should be alleviated, by at a minimum moving the arm mounts to the sides if not the tops of the arms (as opposed to the present under arm locations) and moving at least one torso ballistics mount moved significantly higher as well.

[Archie4Strings]

I think, in general, that almost every Mech can still be viable. But i guess that many Mechs just dont fit the Meta and that is the main reason why they are not played anymore. The Summoner f.E. faced the same problem. It doesnt work as a laserboat, not as dakka dakka and it doesnt fit many weapons... So almost nobody is playing the summoner and people think it is a bad mech.
You just gotta figure out your kind of style how to play it.
Maybe the warhammer is a little better because of better quirks, and because of the smaller torso. But that does not mean, that the Cataphract is a bad mech in general. You can still get superior results in an average mech. You just gotta play it right.

A bad pilot will lose against a skilled pilot, doesnt matter what kind of mech you are playing.

People just tend to follow the meta, because famous units or players are playing it. Doesnt make them better pilots! Enjoy your cataphract! As i do enjoy my summoner with UAC20 (and i am doing very well with it )

Edited by Archie4Strings, 17 May 2016 - 03:59 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Archie4Strings, on 17 May 2016 - 03:58 AM, said:

I think, in general, that almost every Mech can still be viable. But i guess that many Mechs just dont fit the Meta and that is the main reason why they are not played anymore. The Summoner f.E. faced the same problem. It doesnt work as a laserboat, not as dakka dakka and it doesnt fit many weapons... So almost nobody is playing the summoner and people think it is a bad mech.
You just gotta figure out your kind of style how to play it.
Maybe the warhammer is a little better because of better quirks, and because of the smaller torso. But that does not mean, that the Cataphract is a bad mech in general. You can still get superior results in an average mech. You just gotta play it right.

A bad pilot will lose against a skilled pilot, doesnt matter what kind of mech you are playing.

People just tend to follow the meta, because famous units or players are playing it. Doesnt make them better pilots! Enjoy your cataphract! As i do enjoy my summoner with UAC20 (and i am doing very well with it )

No question that the Phract is viable. Not the issue. Only issue(s) I am raising is the general one that low hard points are a disadvantage, and that as such, for most mixed laser and ballistics builds a Warhammer or Marauder is an objectively better choice than the Phract with the same build, due to those former mechs having higher mounts, even if only marginally so, than the Phract. There are no mitigating quirks or other features that the Phract enjoys so as to compensate for that reality.
Yes a Phract is still playable, and still one of my favorites. Yet it is at an observable disadvantage to those near its weight and the only way that could be alleviated, imo is to redesign the mech to move some if not most of its hardpoints up higher.

Given that I have now repeated this, in various ways a half dozen times or so (see above if you are at all interested), I think I will leave it at that.

Edited by Bud Crue, 17 May 2016 - 04:35 AM.

[invernomuto]

Archie4Strings, on 17 May 2016 - 03:58 AM, said:

People just tend to follow the meta, because famous units or players are playing it. Doesnt make them better pilots! Enjoy your cataphract! As i do enjoy my summoner with UAC20 (and i am doing very well with it )

While I agree with you that each mech is viable, even if not "meta" (at least at my tier in Quickplay, I do not know in upper tiers), I think that Bud has highlighted some valid points here. Quirks aside, the warhammer has IMHO two clear advantages over the "old" Cataphract:

• Hardpoints number: the warhammer, like most new mech, has lots of hardpoints to chose from (NINE), compared to the six that Cataphract has on most builds (the 4X has seven but it also has a very low engine CAP). More hardpoints -> more customization possibilities -> more builds -> more fun experimenting with that mech -> and more possibility that the mech will be competitive if the meta shifts.
  
• Hardpoints placement: warhammer has higher hardpoints compared to the Cataphract. Mech with higher hardpoints are also easier to play, for obvious reasons.

The only advantages the Cataphract has over the Warhammer is that one variant has ECM (0XP) and one has JJs (3D).



Since PGI decided to undertake a big rescale project for each mech that will require a remodelling/rescaling of each mech with also a new quirk pass, it would be nice if PGI were going to apply a "common policy" in mech rescaling/remodelling, setting, e.g.:

• a standardization in hardpoint locations: the mech has long arms? At least put the hardpoint location above the forearms and not below to mitigate this disadvantage;
  
• a standardization in hardpoint numbers: why older mechs have, in general, lower hardpoints that new mechs? It could give some fresh air to older, less used, mech chassis.
  
• taking into consideration the special capabilities that the mech has, like JJs or ECM variants.
  
• Finally, if the mech design does not consent this kind of standardization without distorting it: balance with quirks.

My 2 cents.

Edited by invernomuto, 17 May 2016 - 04:42 AM.

[Dr Kevorkian]

cataphracts are not dead. I would say they may even be more effective vs new players who don't know what they are hah. You just have to use them as a fire support mech, not a face tanker. They are fragile, but like any mech in the right spot they can dish it out with the best of them.

Pesonal faves are an ilya with 3 ac/5 and 2 LL, and the standard 4 ac/5 4x. They still eat face, especially if you run companion to a mech that draws higher priority fire, such as a direwolf or an atlas.

[Nightshade24]

3rd time typing this, I am installing Internet explorer now becauses Firefox is to unstable and Google chrome is slower than ie due to all those updates they kept doing.

that out of the way, super condenced

If you going over the ledge what is 0.5 seconds make that much difference of firing at enemy? if you meant firing from behind isntead of going over why not go to end of trench to fire around corner? corner peeking is better than ridge humping as well as it's harder to hit the CT and may be impossible at times as well. while only your arm and ST is exposed instead oif everything besides legs.

TT? I never have a problem with low slinged weapons, it's a very open map and the ramps are so large that the bend at the top doesn't do anything. I never had a single problem in any mech with low hardpoints.

High ridges/ mountains? Cataphract wins here hands down, unlike the side torso of a warhammer and marauder, the arms of cataphract can aim quite high and quite low, making it better on top of the ridge and also on the other side allows the cat to fire up onto the ridge. Check the in game stats too. the cataphracts torso+ arms can go higher and lower by a long shot over the limited marauder and warhammer torso only.

Also arms can move quickly with torso making it easy to kill and shoot light or fast mechs. as well as limit face time exposure as well as with skill putting the torso angled away while firing at enemy with guns making it even more limited face time exposure and limited exposure in the same time.

Also this is the only warhammer I've seen in the past 3 days.

Visually I can see SRM 6, 4 machine guns, 2 flamers, 2 ppc's.

he walked away with the 3rd highest damage in game (higher then the hellbringer beside him with a UAC 10 and medium laser/ large pulse laser spam) and questioned me when I questioned him why did he have ppc's in the arms instead of his side torso, or have anything but Machine guns.

Due to the fact tier 1's are in this match, this is a tier 1, 2, and 3 match. So this is the 'high end' to 'average' range. No "newbs"...
Just saying.

I also saw an enemy warhammer briefly but didn't catch his laoad out besides having 3 SRM 6's which I also stated above is what I saw often. Besides that I can assume some lasers or other weapons but can't decern...

[mogs01gt]

Franksteins have one major issue, other mechs do their job better. But for new players who want a platform that can use lasers and ballistics, they are one of the best heavies to start with. The problem I have is if I want to brawl in a heavy, I go TBR, if I want to go ballastics, I got my jager or if I want to go laservomit, TBR wins again.

[TheLuc]

First off, I think the Phracts are still very viable chassis, second that obsession with the Inner Sphere XL engine has to stop, don't try to make a Clan Mech out of a IS one. XL Engines for IS are crap, losing a side torso and being out of the match it not worth the weight saving or the speed gain.

The Phract is a large Mech, knowing that why put a XL in there in the first place. Unlike the Clans that is all about fire power, durability is for the IS plus there is quirk to make them even more solid. None of my IS Mechs run a XL and I have no issues with them and its quite funny to see players waste ammo or time on my side torsos to witness that I'm still running around and core them soon after.

A third point, the low hard points are the arms, so why not put the big guns on those two torso energy spots. the low arms can be easily used for lighter weapons to chase off lighter Mechs. Using the Phract as a late game brawler is very effective and its not like there is no waiting already in the game so 3-5 minutes more is no big deal.

That`s what i run with my Phract and go no problems with it. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c2f68c471652b78

A possible suggestion, may not be the meta but the big guns are higher the fast firing weapons placed in the lower spots. Low alpha but low heat and almost none stop. Still nimble and more durable than a XL Mech.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fdc40e74cd54182

Edited by TheLuc, 31 May 2016 - 09:49 AM.

[Bud Crue]

TheLuc, on 31 May 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

Quote

The reason I started this thread, and thought I made clear in the OP and subsequent posts is not that the Cataphract is unplayable or not viable but rather that nearly any build one can come up with for a Cataphract, some other (newer) mech can do it better. In the case of the build you propose above, a Warhammer can do the same build and have higher weapon locations for everything (except perhaps 2 of your ML). Likewise a Jagger. I am merely wanting the Phracts to be as good as these newer mechs in at least some aspect. Right now, they are not.

[TheLuc]

Bud, you did make your point clearly in the OP, thing is that to make the CTF great again would not be that specific Mech anymore.

The Cataphract is a old Mech in MWO so it was bound to happen. Already in lore the CTF is a Mech built off leftovers, was meant to work and that about it.

I just think it should stay as it is.

Edited by TheLuc, 31 May 2016 - 10:23 PM.

[MasterBLB]

Well BudCrue,please present us non-Phract heavy IS mech able to go into Zombie mode with 2xML and SRM4 at least.Or other which can equip 3xAC10/LBX10 with 2-3 backup medium lasers.Or which one has side torso energy hardpoints comparably high.

[Bud Crue]

Black widow.

Edit: Not sure what you mean by "zombie mode with 2xML and SRM4". No mech Phract or otherwise has three hardpoints in the CT. Are you thinking of a Grasshopper?

Edited by Bud Crue, 31 May 2016 - 11:12 AM.

[MasterBLB]

"Zombie" is a mech which is still able to fight after losing both side torsos.

And I'm very curious how Black Widow could mount 3xAC10.3xLBX10 BW is possible,but judge yourself how practical compared to Shredder Phract it is,having speed even lower than assaults,and severly stripped of armor.

The whole point is your initial statement "Phract are all the way worse compared to newer mechs,and unable to do something unique which cannot be mimicked by Warhammers/Marauders/whatever and therefore have to be 'saved'" is entirely false.And that is what me,Nightshade24 and few other guys are trying to tell you a way you finally got it.

Edited by MasterBLB, 31 May 2016 - 11:29 AM.

[Bud Crue]

MasterBLB, on 31 May 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

"Zombie" is a mech which is still able to fight after losing both side torsos.

And I'm very curious how Black Widow could mount 3xAC10.3xLBX10 BW is possible,but judge yourself how practical compared to Shredder Phract it is,having speed even lower than assaults,and severly stripped of armor.

The whole point is your initial statement "Phract are all the way worse compared to newer mechs,and unable to do something unique which cannot be mimicked by Warhammers/Marauders/whatever and therefore have to be 'saved'" is entirely false.And that is what me,Nightshade24 and few other guys are trying to tell you a way you finally got it.

I'm still confused. So are you saying because a 4x can zombie an srm4 and a single medium laser (or even a large laser...it only has a single energy torso mount) that is a mitigating factor for its otherwise low hardpoint locations? That such a mech is as good as a Black Widow?

Okay. To each his own. I love my Phracts but I don't see the 4x being noted as even remotely equal to the Black Widow, or any other 70 ton heavy for that matter.

BTW, I don't think I said Phracts are "way worse." I said they have been rendered obsolete. If a player has a choice there are better choices for nearly any mixed ballistics and energy builds using mechs similar in weight to the Phracts. Jaggers, Warhammers, Marauders, etc. Unless you truly believe that weapons hardpoint locations and number truly don't matter, then you are right the Phract is just fine. But if number and locations of hard points do matter, and I think they do, in almost every instance the Phract is the worse choice for a given build. Have you "Got it"? Cuz that is all I am asserting here.

Edit as I have said repeatedly there are exceptions (which is why I use phrases like "for the most part"), you have found one with your excellent lbx build. It is one of my favorites. I run it on an Ilya. But if the Phract is really just better at one build does that really make it "as good" as mechs of similar weight? I just don't think so.

Edited by Bud Crue, 31 May 2016 - 11:59 AM.

[MasterBLB]

Okay,so to be exact...

Bud Crue, on 14 May 2016 - 04:15 AM, said:

The WH and MAD have not only made the Cataphract redundant, but with their superior hardpoint locations, numbers and combinations, they have rendered the Phract wholly obsolete. I really want to play my phracts, but they are just utterly out-classed.

The bolded points which are utter nonsense.

You claim torso hardpoints in Warhammer or Marauder are superior,but that's not true.Some of them are better,but some are worse - example side torso energy hardpoints in Phracts 1x,2x,3D and Ilya vs competition.So the statement is false.

You claim Phracts are utterly outclassed.I asked you to mention other mech able to brawl so ferociously and tenaciously like Phract 4X,still dangerous unless legged or cored to the death.You're so glanced at your marauders and warhammers to forgot mention Grashopper.There are few other heavies with 2xE hardpoints in CT,and some with head slot,but never simultaneously.So only that Grasshopper is somewhat comparable,but thanks to PGI designers it differs enough to both chassis be unique - Phract 4X has ballistics,while Hopper bigger engine and jump jets.And that's perfectly fine,but you know what?It does not make any of these mechs obsolete.

Next point,explain how Warhammer or Marauder can safely equip two Gauss RIfles and XL engine.Safely,I mean not in side torso to avoid lethal capacitors explosion.Oh,wait,they can't (Marauder even can't take 2xGauss at all)...but Phracts Ilya and 4X can.Of course,there are tradeoffs,Phracs can do that safer,and have better aim control at the cost of lower hardpoint placement,while Warhammer can easier shoot over obstacles at the cost of worse target tracking (matters due to recharge mechanic of gausses) capabilities,and being more vulnerable if its rifle is destroyed.So where is "utter superiority" in that?I don't see any.But you know what?That's perfectly fine,as both mechs can do something specific only for them.And for Marauder,while it can take only one Gauss it is placed in the best location among all three mechs in exchange.
You're gonna probably mention Jaggermech here - yepp,it can also put 2xGauss in arms,but due to geometry running XL engine in it is practically suicidal.But that's also fine,superior weapon placement at the cost of extreme fragility - but that not makes Phract worse or better from Jagger.And you know what?That's perfectly fine.

So,clearly there are aspects where Phracts are shine compared to Warhammers or Marauders,and these mechs definitely don't make it obsolete due to hardpoints locations,numbers or builds diversity.Your second statement is also false.

[Bud Crue]

MasterBLB, on 31 May 2016 - 01:01 PM, said:

Okay,so to be exact...

The bolded points which are utter nonsense.

You claim torso hardpoints in Warhammer or Marauder are superior,but that's not true.Some of them are better,but some are worse - example side torso energy hardpoints in Phracts 1x,2x,3D and Ilya vs competition.So the statement is false.

You claim Phracts are utterly outclassed.I asked you to mention other mech able to brawl so ferociously and tenaciously like Phract 4X,still dangerous unless legged or cored to the death.You're so glanced at your marauders and warhammers to forgot mention Grashopper.There are few other heavies with 2xE hardpoints in CT,and some with head slot,but never simultaneously.So only that Grasshopper is somewhat comparable,but thanks to PGI designers it differs enough to both chassis be unique - Phract 4X has ballistics,while Hopper bigger engine and jump jets.And that's perfectly fine,but you know what?It does not make any of these mechs obsolete.

Next point,explain how Warhammer or Marauder can safely equip two Gauss RIfles and XL engine.Safely,I mean not in side torso to avoid lethal capacitors explosion.Oh,wait,they can't (Marauder even can't take 2xGauss at all)...but Phracts Ilya and 4X can.Of course,there are tradeoffs,Phracs can do that safer,and have better aim control at the cost of lower hardpoint placement,while Warhammer can easier shoot over obstacles at the cost of worse target tracking (matters due to recharge mechanic of gausses) capabilities,and being more vulnerable if its rifle is destroyed.So where is "utter superiority" in that?I don't see any.But you know what?That's perfectly fine,as both mechs can do something specific only for them.And for Marauder,while it can take only one Gauss it is placed in the best location among all three mechs in exchange.
You're gonna probably mention Jaggermech here - yepp,it can also put 2xGauss in arms,but due to geometry running XL engine in it is practically suicidal.But that's also fine,superior weapon placement at the cost of extreme fragility - but that not makes Phract worse or better from Jagger.And you know what?That's perfectly fine.

So,clearly there are aspects where Phracts are shine compared to Warhammers or Marauders,and these mechs definitely don't make it obsolete due to hardpoints locations,numbers or builds diversity.Your second statement is also false.

Okay, you win. Phracts are just as good as a Warhammer or Marauder. The hardpoints of tbose mechs are in no way superior to the Phract. The 4x is ferocious. Anyone who observes the contrary is spreading falsehoods. Sigh.

[MasterBLB]

And again my friend you're mistaken.Good luck in creating LRM Phract,or some with 2xAC20 for example...

The point is all the mechs we're discussing about are good,but each of them can do something better the others can't - but that does not make "utterly outclassed" in general any of chassis.
If you have in mind,however,some specific purpose or build,like LRM boat,or ballistic hill peeker,or durable brawler then different among mentioned mechs starts to shine.

You claim you can't ride your Phracts nowadays.I say,take 4X I've mentioned in previous post (fine tune it if you wish,ex upgrade 2xML to 2xMPL,or 1xLPL) and see yourself how "obsolete" it is.

[Bud Crue]

MasterBLB, on 31 May 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

And again my friend you're mistaken.Good luck in creating LRM Phract,or some with 2xAC20 for example...

The point is all the mechs we're discussing about are good,but each of them can do something better the others can't - but that does not make "utterly outclassed" in general any of chassis.
If you have in mind,however,some specific purpose or build,like LRM boat,or ballistic hill peeker,or durable brawler then different among mentioned mechs starts to shine.

You claim you can't ride your Phracts nowadays.I say,take 4X I've mentioned in previous post (fine tune it if you wish,ex upgrade 2xML to 2xMPL,or 1xLPL) and see yourself how "obsolete" it is.

Look, I am not saying there are no exceptional Cataphract builds. I certainly have acknowledged that repeatedly through out this thread. Perhaps I am indeed being too down on what I perceive as redundancy. In response to my position, you have pointed to some aspects of the Phract that make it unique (the ability to have a laser in the CT and an SRM 4 in the head; and the fact that it can run 3AC10s) as some sort of antidote to all of its drawbacks when compared to other mechs, namely low hard points. You point to its amazing ability to run 2 Gauss in its arms...the lowest arm mounts in the game...as an advantage over the Warhammer? Yes, the Phract can do that and avoid losing its torsos when it loses a gun, that does not make those low hardpoints "superior" to those of the Warhammer. And as to that sort of build, you can always take 2 Gauss in a Jagger (after all there is probably a reason that the 2 Gauss Jagger is one of the most common mechs seen in this game...but I'm not seeing a lot of your proposed builds).

You choose to believe that the Phracts are not out classed by the Hammer and other mechs near its weight. I simply disagree. As I said above:

In other words: If you have build "A" and you put it on a Warhammer and on a Phract, the Warhammer is always a better choice. 4 AC-5s as mentioned above...try it on a BW vs a 4X. I will be shocked if you still prefer the Phract. 3LL and a Gauss? Put that on a Mad (or even a Hammer) same thing.

Yes you can come up with unique builds on a 4x, yes and I have agreed repeatedly above the phract is still viable and playable. But the Phract in an apples to apples build comparison to other mechs doing THE SAME build is utterly outclassed if for no other reason than because its hard points are almost all lower. That's it.

Lastly, If you are still seeing lots of Phracts in games then great, but you are not playing the same game I am. I see maybe 1 a week, and it is usually a teammate. Yet, I still see lots of Jaggers, lots of Warhammers, lots of Marauders. I think there is a reason for that, and that reason is that those mechs are indeed objectively better (btw I did not discuss Grasshoppers for some sort of equivalency because my OP is about the comparison to Warhammers and a lesser extent Marauders and other mixed ballistics and energy builds).

Anyway, enjoy your Phracts for what they are, that is what I am doing too. I just think they would be a lot better if they had hard point locations a little higher (see my earlier posts for specific examples). You disagree, and think they are just spiffy the way they are? Good for you.

Edited by Bud Crue, 01 June 2016 - 02:36 AM.

[oldradagast]

High hardpoints are very important. I sold off my two Cataphracts that couldn't perform (4X and 0XP, an accurate name for it) because they simply were unable to put any real damage on the enemy without being fully exposed to return fire. I kept the 1X and the 3X because with a pair of high-mounted energy weapons in them, they can still compete. I can put out some damage at range without fully exposing the mech, and up close both pack a big ballistic weapon, too.

So, yes - hardpoint height matters, and if you look at the Cataphracts in the Mechlab, they have some of the lowest arm-mounted weapons in the game for their weight class. I don't even put weapons in the big, stupid, paddle-like arms anymore on them. I just let the arms get blown off as shields, which works decently if the enemy is aiming low or if I look up while rolling damage.