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Theorycrafting: Catapult, The Support Role


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#81 Xune

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 12:24 AM

View PostKhobai, on 19 July 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:


I understand why hardpoints exist. i wasnt saying we shouldnt have hardpoints. I was saying hardpoints shouldnt be 1:1.




And what reason would Harpoints have if you still can boat ? If you have enough hardpoints to run with 4 LRM20 on a Catapult why bother with a restriction at all ? I mean afteall 4 ER PPCS in a Pult should be allowed to no ?


heck please stick with the 1:1 Hardpoints, otherwise we will have MW4 multiplayer again

#82 Khobai

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 12:33 AM

Quote

And what reason would Harpoints have if you still can boat ? If you have enough hardpoints to run with 4 LRM20 on a Catapult why bother with a restriction at all ? I mean afteall 4 ER PPCS in a Pult should be allowed to no ?


um 4 ER PPCs is allowed in a pult.

#83 Graphite

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 12:55 AM

View PostXune, on 19 July 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:




And what reason would Harpoints have if you still can boat ? If you have enough hardpoints to run with 4 LRM20 on a Catapult why bother with a restriction at all ? I mean afteall 4 ER PPCS in a Pult should be allowed to no ?


heck please stick with the 1:1 Hardpoints, otherwise we will have MW4 multiplayer again


Whoa, slow down guys, enough with the panic.

Even 1:1 hardpoints will allow 4xERPPC in the K2 Catapult.

Any 4xLRM20 Catapult will be seriously gimped - just too heavy for a reasonable 65 tonner.

#84 Moira

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 02:27 AM

Reading this topic has been interesting. I do seemingly favor the LRM15+LRM20+LL+ML comp. for some odd reason. I cant say that its more versatile, but feels more solid than 2xML+2xLRM20 comp.

Dropping of the JJ's isnt an option for me since from the promo footage we can see that there are areas that require JJ's to get on or JJ's cut down seriously the time to get there .. or get down from there =)

But since we arent in BETA and havent had good testing yet.. its little hard to have experiences from variations...

All talk is good, juse need to get it tested to find our own "best variants" =)

#85 Dark Aria

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 02:56 AM

Surprised no one has mentioned adding C.A.S.E. (Cellular Ammunition Storage Equipment).

#86 Soviet Alex

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:16 AM

@Dark Aria: I think most of us take it for granted that as soon as we can buy CASE, it's going in. 1 crit-slot + 0.5 tons per side torse isn't hard to find.

Not convinced about using the Bumblebee's hardpoints to make a quad LRM Catapult myself. If I was going to launch more than 40 missiles per volley, I'd start with a Stalker chassis. Fatapult ftw! :unsure:

#87 Khobai

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:27 AM

Quote

@Dark Aria: I think most of us take it for granted that as soon as we can buy CASE, it's going in. 1 crit-slot + 0.5 tons per side torse isn't hard to find.


You probably dont even need CASE since youll typically run out of ammo way before your torso is stripped of armor. Catapults dont have that much ammo afterall, only 16 shots per launcher, you can burn through that in one or two minutes. Thats one reason im not a big fan of the missile catapult. The PPC catapult has way more appeal.

Edited by Khobai, 21 July 2012 - 04:30 AM.


#88 Daohor OzFey

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:36 AM

A very intresting read, I might consider trying it out once I get the product in my hands. I always liked the stand off role and hitting from afar.

#89 Soviet Alex

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 07:34 AM

I'd agree with Khobai that the bog-standard Catapult probably doesn't need CASE. I'll go back to the Heavy Mech video in a mo & time the LRM-15 recycle, but I'm guessing that I could loose off 8 volleys before anyone breached my armour. But this whole thread was about making the Cat a better support mech. For that you need more ammo, & that makes CASE worthwhile.

Another curved ball to throw out there: the Catapult's 260 standard engine weighs 13.5 tons. A 325-XL weighs 12 tons. If you run out of ammo before the side torso armour gets breached it doesn't make you much more vunerable. Quickapult, anyone? :D

#90 Soviet Alex

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 07:41 AM

Just watched the Heavy Mech trailer again. Looks like the Catapult could let off a volley of LRM-15s every 4 seconds. At maximum range, the first wave of missiles are still in the air when the second wave launch. Gonna need more ammo. :D

#91 Blaze32

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 08:27 AM

View PostXandre Blackheart, on 15 July 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Re-calculated for math. I hate math.

Well, still bored. So, the Catapult sitting unused in my Legendary Founder's garage has been staring at me forlornly.

I'm not a huge fan of piloting a support mech, but I sure as hell love it when people on my side are. It's not difficult to see that the catapult was intended as a workhorse support mech, and the stock variant fills that role admirably. But could it be better?

Before I can answer that question, I need to know what is meant by Support. Everyone seems to toss that term around, but what does it mean? I'm of the opinion it comes from the term Fire Support. The interesting point here is the quote "...is used to shape the battlefield or, more optimistically, define the battle."

Well that certainly makes the support role sound important. The application of firepower from a distant point allows the individual directing the fire to shape the battle. But how?

Well if you can hit your enemy, and he can't strike back at you, you have just forced your enemy to make a decision. He has to either retreat, advance to a range he can retaliate from, or sit there and take it. Congratulations, you have just shaped the battle. Of course, picking the right target will be critical, and the right location to fire from also.

So how could the stock catapult be made more effective in a fire support role? It's already pretty effective, but it does have some shortcomings. Primarily it lacks the ammunition for a protracted engagement. 8 salvos and you are empty. Also the armor is disturbingly light. 160 out of a maximum of 211.

Assuming a 1:1 hardpoint ratio we take the mech sitting in our garage and strip off all the weapons and equipment:

65 - 16 tons (2 LRM 15 + 2 Tons ammo) - 4 tons (4 Medium Lasers) - 5 tons (heatsinks) - 4 tons (jump jets) leaving us with a 36 ton chassis, with 260 standard engine giving 4/6 movement and the original armor load of 10 tons (160 armor points).

The three primary considerations of any armor unit (mechs included) are speed, firepower, and armor. A speed of 4/6 seems reasonable for a support role. Any slower and it will be difficult to maintain a position to fire from, any faster and the main consideration in a support role, firepower, could be compromised. Weight can be saved by going to an XL engine however, if we want the added risk of increased vulnerability. Since firepower is again, the foremost concern:

260 STD fusion engine 13.5 tons vs 260 XL fusion engine 7 tons

A savings of 6.5 tons seems like a reasonable decision. (right up until our left or right torso gets breached).

Substituting the XL engine makes our stripped down chassis now weigh in at:

36 - 6.5 = 29.5 tons.

Armor is also a consideration, but again in a support role, we are supposed to be firing from a position of relative safety. Still 10 tons is rather light and armor is relatively cheap with regards to tonnage. Lets increase the armor by 1 ton, giving us an extra 16 points of armor. This allows us to max our armor on the left and right torso (to guard the vulnerable XL engine) from 19/8 (front/rear) to 22/8 each, and upgrade the rather lightly armored arms from 13 armor each to 18 of a maximum of 20 armor each.

So 29.5 + 1 ton of armor = 30.5 tons.

The primary consideration for fire support is of course firepower, and if we can bring enough of it to bear on a target we can change the course of a battle without ever having to move our lazy *** off the couch... I mean hill. Considering that we are working under a 1:1 hardpoint ratio however, it severely limits the configurations we can consider. Twin LRM 20's is of course the maximum we can consider, but given our current weight allowance of 34.5 tons, that would eat up 22 tons of it, and only give us enough ammunition for 6 salvos, with almost nothing left for discouraging close range attacks. This is less than optimal. Remaining at twin LRM 15 launchers is certainly a viable option at this point, but we could punch harder.

1 LRM 20 RA + 1 LRM 15 LA is a good compromise. Weighing in at 17 tons without ammo it gives us room to boost the ammunition levels for a sustained firing role. 4 tons of ammo for the LRMs gives us 480 missiles, enough for 13 shots of the LRM 20 (260 missiles) and 13 shots of the LRM 15 (210). (An interesting question arises at this point- what happens when you have 10 missiles left over and no LRM 10?)

So 30.5 + 17 (weapons) + 4 (ammo) = 51.5 tons.

With our remaining 13.5 tons we can do a lot to discourage close in attackers. With 4 energy hardpoints the concern is a good balance of range and damage vs heat. I personally will opt for 1 large laser mounted in the center torso, and 2 medium lasers mounted in the left and right torsos.

51.5 + 5 (Large Laser) + 2 (Medium Lasers) = 58.5 tons

This leaves us with 6.5 tons left over. This is primarily due to upgrading our engine, so again it seems like a good decision (right up until we lose a left or right torso). With the demands of a large laser we will need more heatsinks to make the best use of it, as we now have direct fire capability out to 450m.

5 heatsinks will give us 15 heat dissipation, which will allow us to remain cool while firing LRMS, and also allow us to fire the Large Laser and Medium Lasers for a period of time against anyone encroaching on our firing position.

But we still have 1.5 tons left. And since the best solution is to enemy encroachment on our firing position is to remain undetected as long a possible, it is fortunate that a Guardian ECM Suite weighs in at exactly 1.5 tons.

58.5 + 5 (heatsinks) + 1.5 (ECM) = 65

So to recap, we now have a catapult with the same movement rate, no jumpjets, more vulnerable torsos, the same number of heatsinks, slightly enhanced armor, and more firepower with the ammunition to sustain the firepower longer.

There's no way to know for sure if the build actually works better (or worse) that the standard catapult, but we can re-examine our assumptions.

The first assumption that jumps out is the lack of jumpjets. (sorry, bad pun) We are obviously assuming that they are not needed in a support role. Useful yes, but necessary? The assumption is that the increased weapons load and ammunition is going to be more useful.

The second assumption is that the increasing one LRM 15 to an LRM 20 is worth the tonnage. With only 5 more missiles per salvo one could easily argue that twin LRM 15's was a better loadout, and we could have gotten even more ammunition. Or conversely twin LRM 20's and less ammunition. All I can say is that it seems like a reasonable compromise, and only testing can determine if it works and how well.


YOu do know that there are 2 missle hardpoints in each arm of the catapult right look at the leeked video i think.

#92 Huntsman

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:11 AM

"Support" your lance by brawling. Replace the lrm15s with srm6s freeing up 8 tons to add armor, ammo, and maybe an engine boost.

#93 Arcady

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:40 AM

View PostJakob Knight, on 16 July 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:


Except that the Catapult can only mount two missiles systems at present (all hardpoints were reportedly reduced to a 1:1 rate). Thus, the most you could do is mount an SRM6 in each arm, for a total of two. This may change later on, but don't count on anything you don't already see on a mech to start with.


The devblog on mechlab has how many hardpoints a mech has by default:
http://mwomercs.com/...blog-6-mechlab/

Put it simply a mech has the hardpoint for all the weapons of the stock model plus one additional hardpoint in each chassis section for each type of weapon that section carries.

So the stock C1 catapult has:
LA: LRM 15
RA: LRM 15
LT: ML
RT: ML
CT: 2 ML

Therefore it's stock harpoints would be:
LA: 2 missile
RA: 2 missile
LT: 2 energy
RT: 2 energy
CT: 3 energy
Of course, that blog post was made in April so things may have been changed by then but that's what I'm working off of

#94 Soviet Alex

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 12:25 PM

"Each location on a BattleMech, such as the Right Arm or Center Torso, may include a number of hard points. The number of hard points in a given location is determined on a per variant basis, and is based on the weapons included in the variant’s default loadout. For example, a ’Mech that, by default, comes with 2 Medium Lasers and an Autocannon/2 in its Left Torso may actually have 3 energy weapon hard points and 2 ballistic hard points in that location. So, if the player is able to satisfy the weight and critical slot requirements, they could equip an additional energy weapon and ballistic weapon into that Left Torso, or swap out the Medium Lasers for other energy weapons, etc."

I underlined the 2 most important words in that paragraph. There might well be a 2nd missile hardpoint in the Catapult's arms, to allow the "Butterbee" variant to be made in Mech-Lab (2xSRM-6 in each arm). But right now I'd recommend basing all design projects on the assumption that a mech only has the hardpoints you can see.

#95 Graphite

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:54 PM

View PostSoviet Alex, on 21 July 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

"Each location on a BattleMech, such as the Right Arm or Center Torso, may include a number of hard points. "

Yes, it may include a number (1 to 12) or it may not include a number (0).

That quote http://mwomercs.com/...blog-6-mechlab/ plus the following http://mwomercs.com/...y-qa-6-mechlab/ talking about 1 PPC giving at least 2 HP:

[PAUL] I’m not sure what you mean here. If you pull a PPC out of a hard point and you want to put 2 medium lasers in its place, there’s nothing stopping you from doing so. Just go to the store, buy 2 medium lasers, remove the PPC, put the 2 medium lasers in its space and Bob’s yer uncle! ;) If you’re thinking that the PPC’s 3 critical slots must be filled with 3 medium lasers, then no, you don’t have to do that.

and this video http://mwomercs.com/...deo/dPoqjslGcO0 showing 1 AC giving 3 HP:
Posted Image

and this image from an article just a few days old http://www.zam.com/s...tml?story=30094 showing 1 laser giving 2 HP on an HBK-4G:
Posted Image

and this image http://mwomercs.com/...ab-screenshot-2 showing 1 laser giving 2 HP and 1 machinge gun giving 2 HP:
Posted Image

and this image http://mwomercs.com/...ab-screenshot-7 showing 1 PPC giving 2 HP:
Posted Image


and the fact there isn't evidence like this for 1:1 weapon/hardpoint ratios mean that if you restrict yourself to only designing mechs with 1:1 now because you don't want to redesign again later, you're probably being a bit naive, and in fact you probably WILL be redesigning.

Edited by Graphite, 21 July 2012 - 05:11 PM.


#96 Ulbrecht Stormcrow

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 05:38 PM

View PostUbertron X, on 15 July 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

You are wrong with the weights. Let me give you the original Catapult, then theory craft again.

Engine: 13,5t
Gyro: 3t
Cockpit: 3t
Internal Structure: 6,5t
Armor: 10t (160pt)
Jump Jets: 4t
4 Medium Laser: 4t
2 LRM 15 plus Ammo: 16t
Heat Sinks 5t

Sum: 65t



Given the increased rates of fire (and heat generation) I'm seeing in the vids, I'm inclined to drop the 15s to LRM10s, add an extra ton of ammo each, drop one heatsink, two medium lasers, and sub a large laser. Pushes the energy weapon max range out for direct fire, maintains most of the defensive fire capabilities at similar heat (18d/14h v 20d/12h), and has more staying power in the indirect arena.

Obviously, an upgrade to doubled heat sinks is the first order of business. I don't see the value in case, once that tech becomes available - as most will be using XL engines. If the case blows out LTorso, and I've got an XL in it, I'm done anyways. More likely to use the XL weight savings for ECM, Command/Control hardware, enhanced armor, and replacement of another 2xMLaser with an LLaser replacement.

Yes, that relegates me almost entirely to a support role, with the occasional anti-scout target of opportunity situation, but with the 65 ton weight class, its not like I'm intended to go head to head with an Atlas anyways. Indirect fire the lance's target twice, jet to the high ground, direct fire the lasers, jet to a concealed location, review the shape of the battle, repeat.

#97 Soviet Alex

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 02:28 AM

@Graphite: all those pictures were taken back in April. I'm not in the Closed Beta, so I don't know if those numbers have been changed, but Paul has said much more recently that they may do (too busy to hunt the quote). Personally, I'd rather be pleasantly surprised by having more hardpoints than disappointed by not having enough.

But I hope that you are right, because it will make reproducing other mechs easier (& boating, but I kind of accept that as inevitable).

There seem to be 2 concepts emerging here for high-tech Catapults. One with an XL-engine, limited ammo so you run out before it blows up, and a huge throw-weight of missiles (4 LRM-15 or 20?). The other with a standard engine, CASE, lots of ammo but fewer missiles per salvo, & maxed-out survivabilty. Would that be a fair summary?

#98 Khobai

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 03:17 AM

Quote

There seem to be 2 concepts emerging here for high-tech Catapults. One with an XL-engine, limited ammo so you run out before it blows up, and a huge throw-weight of missiles (4 LRM-15 or 20?). The other with a standard engine, CASE, lots of ammo but fewer missiles per salvo, & maxed-out survivabilty. Would that be a fair summary?


I have a completely different concept in mind. Add XL and endosteel. Strip out the jumpjets. Add max armor. Up the engine to 5/8. Add two PPCs, a UAC/5, and two medium lasers. Very fast. Max survivability. Mostly energy weapons so don't need to worry about running out of ammo. The only downside is it can't fire indirectly.

Here's my design:

Spoiler

Edited by Khobai, 22 July 2012 - 03:48 AM.


#99 Soviet Alex

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 09:02 AM

Interesting idea Khobai. I was thinking about something similar, but using a Cataphract chassis. Essentially, I was looking at turning it into a Marauder. Do I call it a Marauderphract or a Catarauder? :o

#100 Brenden

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 09:11 AM

I was thinking for support, you could take out the LRM-15s and upgrade them to LRM 20s. This would mean you would have to remove some things, so downgrade the four medium lasers to two Medium Pulse Lasers. Would that work, in theory?
I'm kind of new to the whole Battletech genre, so I am not sure if that would be a viable alternative to two LRM-15s and four Medium Lasers.

Edited by Brenden, 22 July 2012 - 09:13 AM.






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