199 replies to this topic

[Adamski]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 May 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

I don't know about those spread stats. But I do know that 4 IS SRM6 with artemis hits harder than the Clan version.

It should, its paying 6 extra tons and 4 more slots.

For more info on Missile spread:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__5189177

Edited by Adamski, 19 May 2016 - 11:20 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Adamski, on 19 May 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

It should, its paying 6 extra tons and 4 more slots.

For more info on Missile spread:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__5189177

Which was my point... It weighs more and takes up more slots, and is more powerful (more damage, better spread). Its a trade-off.

[Revis Volek]

Mcgral18, on 18 May 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

Exactly: Range

UAC10s are effective to 400M with their velocity/burst against large targets, and you can get half a burst on about anything



300 absolute max< 400-600 effective

Not to mention dem mounts, which Atlai cannot have


The K-3 is good, not even you can deny that.

I wasnt really comparing the range, i was more comparing the alphas, My 76 Alpha can be pinpoint more often then not. I dont see that happening with 4 clan 10's very often if ever.

Everyone is so scared of the HIGH ALPHA, but it hasnt raised the ceiling at all.

Not to mention i can get around GH pretty quickly and easily with 1/3rd the face time and like i said, range being the only real determining factor.

But the MAL with 5 ac5's is still much scarier to me, more so the the DWF was and the KDK didnt make that build a god, just made it actually good IMO.

Edited by Revis Volek, 19 May 2016 - 12:05 PM.

[Adamski]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 May 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

Which was my point... It weighs more and takes up more slots, and is more powerful (more damage, better spread). Its a trade-off.

My point was that the 20% extra tonnage you need to dedicate to IS SRM6 far outstrips the 7.5% increase in damage, especially with its increased spread. Once you add artemis to the IS SRM6, it becomes so much heavier (60%) and bulkier (50%), that its not even comparable anymore.

Quirks are the only things keeping IS SRMs alive.

Essentially, Artemis providing a 34% reduction in spread, while Clan SRMs are half weight and only 12-15% greater spread, means Artemis more than pays for its tonnage/slot penalty.

Edited by Adamski, 19 May 2016 - 12:14 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Adamski, on 19 May 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

My point was that the 20% extra tonnage you need to dedicate to IS SRM6 far outstrips the 7.5% increase in damage, especially with its increased spread. Once you add artemis to the IS SRM6, it becomes so much heavier (60%) and bulkier (50%), that its not even comparable anymore.

Quirks are the only things keeping IS SRMs alive.

If there is ever a time where a competitive Clan mech has over 4 SRM6 w/artemis, I will believe you, until then, I will point out that IS SRMs are used more prolifically despite their tonnage cost, and the 4 SRM6's with artemis on the IS side is better than the Clan side.

I guess I don't see the issue as plenty of IS mechs are competitive top tier mechs with IS SRMs. Yes, some minor quirks are involved, but that is the complete package so what is the issue?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Adamski, on 19 May 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

Essentially, Artemis providing a 34% reduction in spread, while Clan SRMs are half weight and only 12-15% greater spread, means Artemis more than pays for its tonnage/slot penalty.

By that same line of thought, it eats into the tonnage more on their side since it is an increase in tonnage by 60-200% instead of 33-100%, and don't underestimate the spread difference, it really does make more of a difference than people play it off as, and the fact that many IS mechs have better clustered missile hardpoints, it all adds up. The structure quirks just seal the deal.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 19 May 2016 - 12:21 PM.

[pbiggz]

because its clan tech, and therefore a certain demographic will lose their minds no matter what. They could release a mech with no hardpoints and a 100 rated engine cap and the IS loyalist lobby would still argue that it's OP. There is no reasoning with them.

[Spr1ggan]

If it was OP or stronger than any other top assault then anybody and everybody would be consistently rekin with it. I can't make it work to save my life and do far better with IS heavies.

Edited by Eth3real, 19 May 2016 - 12:26 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Eth3real, on 19 May 2016 - 12:25 PM, said:

If it was OP or stronger than any other top assault then anybody and everybody would be consistently rekin with it. I can't make it work to save my life and do far better with IS heavies.

The only one worth it is the -3 in the solo queue. If you are in a brawling group, the Spirit Bear is good as well. The rest are meh.

[Adamski]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 May 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

If there is ever a time where a competitive Clan mech has over 4 SRM6 w/artemis, I will believe you, until then, I will point out that IS SRMs are used more prolifically despite their tonnage cost, and the 4 SRM6's with artemis on the IS side is better than the Clan side.

I guess I don't see the issue as plenty of IS mechs are competitive top tier mechs with IS SRMs. Yes, some minor quirks are involved, but that is the complete package so what is the issue?

Why would they need more than 4x cSRM6a? Why wouldn't they use the weight savings towards heatsinks / engine / ammo / backup weapons?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 19 May 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

By that same line of thought, it eats into the tonnage more on their side since it is an increase in tonnage by 60-200% instead of 33-100%, and don't underestimate the spread difference, it really does make more of a difference than people play it off as, and the fact that many IS mechs have better clustered missile hardpoints, it all adds up. The structure quirks just seal the deal.

With quirks, the IS SRMs catch up. The SCR with 4x cSRM6a and 4-6 backup lasers, is equally as powerful as any GRF / SHD.

Alternately, the AS7-S with its 17% increased HP from quirks is roughly on par to a KDK-SB unquirked, because the KDK-SB is equally agile with its MASC, has a higher top speed, can fit enough cDHS to have comparable Heat capacity, and has tighter missile groups and can have a larger burst fire with double tap AC.

Giving the KDK-SB agility quirks on top of its MASC makes it far more agile than the AS7-S while also having all the other advantages too.

[Adamski]

I should reiterate, I don't think the KDK-SB or any other KDK is "OP" I do think giving them quirks they don't need is unnecessary power creep and sets a bad precedent.

[Gas Guzzler]

Adamski, on 19 May 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

Why would they need more than 4x cSRM6a? Why wouldn't they use the weight savings towards heatsinks / engine / ammo / backup weapons?

With quirks, the IS SRMs catch up. The SCR with 4x cSRM6a and 4-6 backup lasers, is equally as powerful as any GRF / SHD.

Alternately, the AS7-S with its 17% increased HP from quirks is roughly on par to a KDK-SB unquirked, because the KDK-SB is equally agile with its MASC, has a higher top speed, can fit enough cDHS to have comparable Heat capacity, and has tighter missile groups and can have a larger burst fire with double tap AC.

Giving the KDK-SB agility quirks on top of its MASC makes it far more agile than the AS7-S while also having all the other advantages too.

You seem to be unaware that an Atlas-S will not lose a fight to the quirked Spirit Bear, and its SRM spread is better, because IS SRM 6s have better spread than Clan SRM 6s (both have artemis). Also, if you think a Spirit Bear staring for a second to double-tap its UAC20 is going to beat an Atlas... man... pass the pipe. Sorry, the Atlas-S is still king. The Spirit Bear is nice in the public queue because its speed makes it more forgiving, though.

Also, that Stormcrow build you mentioned, is never used in competitive play over a GRF-3M. Ever.

Adamski, on 19 May 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

I should reiterate, I don't think the KDK-SB or any other KDK is "OP" I do think giving them quirks they don't need is unnecessary power creep and sets a bad precedent.

All the Kodiaks other than the -3 are fine with their quirks, without a doubt in my mind. The -3 we can talk about dialing back the agility.

[Adamski]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 May 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

You seem to be unaware that an Atlas-S will not lose a fight to the quirked Spirit Bear, and its SRM spread is better, because IS SRM 6s have better spread than Clan SRM 6s (both have artemis). Also, if you think a Spirit Bear staring for a second to double-tap its UAC20 is going to beat an Atlas... man... pass the pipe. Sorry, the Atlas-S is still king. The Spirit Bear is nice in the public queue because its speed makes it more forgiving, though.

Also, that Stormcrow build you mentioned, is never used in competitive play over a GRF-3M. Ever.



All the Kodiaks other than the -3 are fine with their quirks, without a doubt in my mind. The -3 we can talk about dialing back the agility.

If the Spirit Bear allows the Atlas to get close enough to use SRMs, that is a pilot failure. Especially if the Atlas has devoted that much tonnage to the SRMs to upgrade them with Artemis.

The AS7-S has a hard limit range on SRMs at 270m and its AC20 and any ML backup have an optimal of 270m.

The KDK-SB has a UAC20 with an optimal of 360m and any ERML backup have an optimal of 405m.

Why play in the Atlas range box if you don't have to?

Edited by Adamski, 19 May 2016 - 12:45 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Adamski, on 19 May 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

If the Spirit Bear allows the Atlas to get close enough to use SRMs, that is a pilot failure. Especially if the Atlas has devoted that much tonnage to the SRMs to upgrade them with Artemis.

Huh? The spirit bear's SRMs don't have any more range than the Atlas's and with 4 out of 7 hardpoints being missile, what else is it going to do? LRMs? Streaks?

[Widowmaker1981]

Adamski, on 19 May 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

The AS7-S has a hard limit range on SRMs at 270m and its AC20 and any ML backup have an optimal of 270m.

The KDK-SB has a UAC20 with an optimal of 360m and any ERML backup have an optimal of 405m.

Why play in the Atlas range box if you don't have to?

Do you actually play this game at all? In what universe is a UAC20 and 2 ERMLs going to keep an Atlas from closing with you.. do you have any idea how little time it takes to cross 90m, and how much structure an atlas has.. i dont even..

[Adamski]

Between running 15-20% faster in the Spirit Bear and having 40% more range on the non SRM armament, combined with both mobility quirks and MASC, I don't see why the Spirit Bear would try to duel an Atlas, instead of either leading it on a merry chase while chipping off a leg, or disengaging and going after other targets of opportunity instead of getting stuck in with a mech you don't have to.

Edited by Adamski, 19 May 2016 - 12:57 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Adamski, on 19 May 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

If the Spirit Bear allows the Atlas to get close enough to use SRMs, that is a pilot failure. Especially if the Atlas has devoted that much tonnage to the SRMs to upgrade them with Artemis.

The AS7-S has a hard limit range on SRMs at 270m and its AC20 and any ML backup have an optimal of 270m.

The KDK-SB has a UAC20 with an optimal of 360m and any ERML backup have an optimal of 405m.

Why play in the Atlas range box if you don't have to?

If you have any laser backup you are doing it wrong anyway. UAC20 is garbage for brawling, you are better of with an LB20 even though it spreads.

The Spirit Bears only saving grace is its speed and mobility, its firepower and durability are objectively inferior to the Atlas-S (with a STD350, AC20, 4 SRM6 + Artemis). That's why in 8v8s or even 12v12s when there are groups involved the Atlas will probably be a bit more popular on most brawl centric maps, because they are mobile enough to get into a brawling position. In the disorder of the public queue, the mobility of the Spirit Bear probably makes it a better option here, but if teamwork is involved, most of the time the Atlas is going to be the brawl king that you want.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 19 May 2016 - 12:54 PM.

[Moomtazz]

Adamski, on 19 May 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

If the Spirit Bear allows the Atlas to get close enough to use SRMs, that is a pilot failure. Especially if the Atlas has devoted that much tonnage to the SRMs to upgrade them with Artemis.

The AS7-S has a hard limit range on SRMs at 270m and its AC20 and any ML backup have an optimal of 270m.

The KDK-SB has a UAC20 with an optimal of 360m and any ERML backup have an optimal of 405m.

Why play in the Atlas range box if you don't have to?

What build are you using on the Spirit Bear? It's hardpoints seem to dictate that it uses SRMs and as such would need to be in close with the Atlas.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Adamski, on 19 May 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

The SCR with 4x cSRM6a and 4-6 backup lasers, is equally as powerful as any GRF / SHD.

No, just no.

Do you know why? Because the spread on the SCR is horrendous (worse than the Kintaro thank to both location and increased Clan SRM spread) and backup lasers are too hot to bother with in an actual brawl. That's why you are more likely to see a 12 SPL or Streakcrow over the Splatcrow. Even if the Griffins didn't have the negligible missile quirks it would still be better because of the tightly grouped hardpoints on top of the better spread on the IS SRMs.

Gas Guzzler, on 19 May 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

That's why in 8v8s or even 12v12s when there are groups involved the Atlas will probably be a bit more popular on most brawl centric maps, because they are mobile enough to get into a brawling position.

^ This, the one advantage the Spirit Bear has is potentially forcing a brawl on otherwise not brawl friendly maps because it can close the gap like a heavy compared to the Atlas which can be a liability due to its speed, but if the brawl is assured, the Atlas is better.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 19 May 2016 - 12:58 PM.

[Moomtazz]

I would run something like this on the SB. It would be inferior to the AS7-S, so if I end up buying the Kodiak's I'll probably skip out on the hero.

SPIRIT BEAR