334 replies to this topic

[TheLuc]

thats what happens when you leave a system dependent of game population, thats why an AI is required. as long as the game will be strictly PVP the population will remain low.

[MischiefSC]

Big units have no negative impact on the game.

None.

TCAF, HHOD, CWI, there are numerous units as big or bigger than MS. Dozens much larger than 228

People join each for different reasons. Each does however motivate their people to play, they have motivations in common, interests, etc. Big groups are big because they have the processes in place to handle big groups of players and they create an environmenttheir players want to play in.

It's completely irrational to think forcing those players to split up would result in them creating identical, homogeneous little groups and scattering evenly around the map. They play how they want with who they want. Keeping them from doing that will just get them not to play. Players are not a fungible, interchangeable resource. They are not water that spills into wherever there is an opening. They have motivations that vary and interests, people they like and don't like, environments they like and don't like.

As predicted the only result in hiring costs and attempts to "nerf big units" has been less people in FW. Period. That's it. Less total drops. Less playing.

Less people playing. Not players flocking to smaller units. Bad idea is bad.

[Commander A9]

I agree; we need AI.

You know what I think would be nice? Solaris.

Just a fight in a competitive sector without any impact on the political map. Free-for-all, so it brings a new style of gameplay. Can cater to both quickplay and Community Warfare-in a sense. Doesn't require a team, but team-based fights are permissible. Can go solo. Can do objectives. Can confine it by tonnage, or not.

So it would add some new life into the game, a new style of play, new arenas, with 1v1, 2v2, 4v4, and even full blown free-for-all into the mix, and a sense of freedom of mech choice. Yeah, we have quickplay, but...quickplay comes with its own flaws, like teams sync-dropping to bypass tonnage limitations and end up bringing 6 assault mechs into a single game.

I'd love to see this.

Edited by Commander A9, 27 May 2016 - 12:53 PM.

[DarklightCA]

Contrex, on 27 May 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

Does a community need the same gametag?`Had been in plenty communities without a gametag.



And why the hell do you think i talk about MS? The only problem of MS is that they are OGEN rusher, and they will stay that even after a unitsice cap, but thats another discussion and has nothing to do with unitsice.

Its just simple math. Many small units combined with a factionjoin penalty just split up more easy and will look for empty factions. The community of MS for example was only founded to get planet tags. In our teamforum there is still a post by some MS members who ask to join them. "We would stay the same as we are, just get more planets - Thats it". Thats exactly what i would love to split. That has not mutch to do with a well led community. It has only one specific goal. To get planets. They give a **** about each other. How could they, they are way too big to know each other

And just ask yourself. Do you even know half the people in a unit as big as Swol? No chance. So there are no personal reasons. And EVERY healhty community will stay a community, if there is a tag or not.

Why are you so fixated on tags? People don't join units for a tag or do I need to repeat what I said?

Also if you don't give a crap about MS's unit size than why the hell are you calling for a unit cap of 60. Getting rid of big units and making them small units is not going to make this gamemode anymore popular or active. It's not going to reinforce unpopular factions beyond what PGI already implemented into the game.

The most active factions are the factions with the most activity on the clan borders. That's how it's always been and likely will always be. Splitting large units into small units is not going to change that. Those people you removed from their units are not simply going to start contracting Marik simply because they are no longer in a large unit. That makes absolutely zero sense.

Also a Unit that cares about conquering planets in a planetary conquest gamemode? Oh **** call the police a crime has just been committed! Honestly that can't be a reason for splitting up units. If anything MS should be commended for being the only unit in the gamemode that actually cares about what units should be caring about.

[Contrex]

People dont join units for tags.... Exactly. So they dont need them :-)

And i rly give a **** about MS in special but i do interest in big units. MS is just an example someone used and i stayed there. MS just loves talking about themselfe. 228 and sowl are super big as well. Actualy i think every unit over 40 is big. Every unit over 100 just monsterous and every unit over 200 just strange.

And big units DO hurt the game, seen the last 2 weeks when ms 228 joined many other mercs at JF and started to cry that they have to wait too long. (topic of this thread)

[DarklightCA]

Contrex, on 27 May 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

People dont join units for tags.... Exactly. So they dont need them :-)

And i rly give a **** about MS in special but i do interest in big units. MS is just an example someone used and i stayed there. MS just loves talking about themselfe. 228 and sowl are super big as well. Actualy i think every unit over 40 is big. Every unit over 100 just monsterous and every unit over 200 just strange.

And big units DO hurt the game, seen the last 2 weeks when ms 228 joined many other mercs at JF and started to cry that they have to wait too long. (topic of this thread)

This is getting pretty tiring to explain to you... it's not about the tags it's about the unit. You keep going back and forth about how people don't need tags so that somehow validates your argument but it doesn't because nobody joined a unit for some tags but the community of players those units built.

Also the reason why people cried when units like MS, 228 and other mercs joined CJF had nothing to do with the size of their units but their power to win games against anybody that got matched against them. Being the fact KCom, EVIL were among the units mentioned when people were crying about a overstacked CJF should have made that obvious.

Large units don't hurt the game. Infact besides for MS you have zero proof of that and according to the actual statistics that PGI provides via the leaderboard besides for MS there isn't a small unit that actively groups up with each other and puts effort into winning their games that isn't competing or even surpassing units much larger than them. If you can provide any facts that because a unit is large that they destroy the gamemode than maybe I could agree with you but I would never agree to a 40-60 player unit limit.

[MischiefSC]

People join units because they want to be in a unit with that group. Maybe they want the big unit experience maybe they like x players in that unit, maybe any number of things.

The idea that you can force units to break into balanced little groups is so oblivious to how humans work it's like saying we should balance weapons by just asking players to use them fairly and responsibly. There is so much wrong with that idea it's hard to even start explaining why it's wrong.

Reality however is already here - result of hiring costs was just... less players joining units and units kicking people who've been away a bit making it less likely they would stay if they returned.


The only thing that changed, the only thing, has been less people playing and lower satisfaction. That's it.

It is a failed idea with no logical basis. Stop it.

[justcallme A S H]

DarklightCA, on 27 May 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

This is getting pretty tiring to explain to you... it's not about the tags it's about the unit. You keep going back and forth about how people don't need tags so that somehow validates your argument but it doesn't because nobody joined a unit for some tags but the community of players those units built.

Also the reason why people cried when units like MS, 228 and other mercs joined CJF had nothing to do with the size of their units but their power to win games against anybody that got matched against them. Being the fact KCom, EVIL were among the units mentioned when people were crying about a overstacked CJF should have made that obvious.

This is exactly what is was about.

And people's (Steiner players) response to the influx of ACTIVE units into CJF was simply to stop playing or go and defend other IS planets with their 12-mans because of the above - power to win games.

[AssaultPig]

If unit size were capped -MS- et al would just be several smaller units. It's not as though organizing that would be some sort of big challenge.

Large numbers of higher-end players congregating in one faction is a problem for various reasons (i.e. current CJF), but not one that can really be solved without revamping the way factions work. The incentive to consistently be on the winning side of games far outweighs any counter-incentive PGI have tried.

Which is why Steiner aren't fighting CJF; is it really so surprising that people don't wanna line up to get creamed?

Edited by AssaultPig, 27 May 2016 - 04:02 PM.

[Danjo San]

Once again, it is not about being creamed, where are the multiple threads complaining about Evil? Exactly there are none! Nobody is complaining bout them, why because there is nothing to complain. They are excellent. Nuff said.
Large units factor imbalance percievably. Especially loyalists feel this. Nobody complains about TCAF or HHOD because they keep the border alive. I do have a problem though with them regarding numbers as it affects us smaller units passively. Active influence being only the large Merc corps switching. Passive demotivating facts include, and are not only limited to, the feeling that you have no chance to receive rewards, or that it matters in general if your small unit even considers to drop in FW. That said all large units do discourage any small unit. And even negatively influence recruiting. How should you convince a player to join you if the only way to see a tag or two on the map is by joining one of the mega clusters? Huh? Really there is none. You want to play FW and want to have a visual impact. Either you are a hardcore elite group or you are a laege unit. And that my friends, put it how you want does factor in and stops players from dropping in FW... sorry, but it is true

[MischiefSC]

Remove tags giving rewards.

If you are not able to recruit someone because another unit has more tags.... your solution is to just not allow the players to join the units they want to join. So they are all but forced to join smaller and or less successful units.

Why not just assign membership at random? Then you just assign players to a random unit by relative population to keep it balanced?

Oh, cuz that would be stupid and less people would play.

[justcallme A S H]

AssaultPig, on 27 May 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

If unit size were capped -MS- et al would just be several smaller units. It's not as though organizing that would be some sort of big challenge.

Large numbers of higher-end players congregating in one faction is a problem for various reasons (i.e. current CJF), but not one that can really be solved without revamping the way factions work. The incentive to consistently be on the winning side of games far outweighs any counter-incentive PGI have tried.

Which is why Steiner aren't fighting CJF; is it really so surprising that people don't wanna line up to get creamed?

Current CJF? 228, MS both left CJF 3 days ago.

The CJF queue is only slightly less active now than what it was because those in CJF are active. It matters less about unit size and more about how active those units/players are. It was still 60/60++ last night, same as it was last week and same as it was 2 weeks before that.

It's great in Marik this week. The CJF queue is flat out so I can get a game in a matter of mins because the Steiners by and large still aren't defending in US/Oceanic zones. NFI why but absolutely fine by me, get a drop in 2mins most of the time. Sometimes we would get smoked by a 12 man, sometimes we would in turn beat a 12 man. We beat a KCom 3-4 man team with a bunch of PUGs one game and lost to them with 8 the next. Can't win them all but you know what? Who cares. In-game VOIP was alive and everyone was at least having fun in a loss and we were enjoying stirring up the red team as well

Compare that to the previous week in CSJ, which had a reasonable population at the time... Got 3 games after 6 hours of total queuing across 7 days. This is because the population in CSJ is INACTIVE beyond belief.

You could have a small unit of great players like KCom, where Pat & Co are always dropping when they are online.
OR you could have 100 strong unit (Like ours, the 54MR) where currently we are lucky to have 15 online (and might not all be FP) at any given time. Who is more powerful? 30 man of great/active players of a 100 man of not-so-active guys?

That's the point.

[DarklightCA]

Danjo San, on 27 May 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

Once again, it is not about being creamed, where are the multiple threads complaining about Evil? Exactly there are none! Nobody is complaining bout them, why because there is nothing to complain. They are excellent. Nuff said.
Large units factor imbalance percievably. Especially loyalists feel this. Nobody complains about TCAF or HHOD because they keep the border alive. I do have a problem though with them regarding numbers as it affects us smaller units passively. Active influence being only the large Merc corps switching. Passive demotivating facts include, and are not only limited to, the feeling that you have no chance to receive rewards, or that it matters in general if your small unit even considers to drop in FW. That said all large units do discourage any small unit. And even negatively influence recruiting. How should you convince a player to join you if the only way to see a tag or two on the map is by joining one of the mega clusters? Huh? Really there is none. You want to play FW and want to have a visual impact. Either you are a hardcore elite group or you are a laege unit. And that my friends, put it how you want does factor in and stops players from dropping in FW... sorry, but it is true

The only difference between KCom and most Merc units is that one kicks your *** as a loyalist and one does so as a merc. Your entire comment confirms this because your problems as you stated don't lie with large loyalists units that "keep the border alive" but successful merc units that play the game as PGI intended and that's somehow their fault.

I fail to see how Merc units switching contracts in some way effects your recruiting. Obviously the fact you can't conquer planets has no baring on your actual inability to conquer a planet despite smaller units than yourself effectively doing so. It's not the larger loyalist units holding you back either.

It's the pesky larger merc units that have their tags everywhere simply because they are a large unit that contract switches and not at all due to the fact they are organized units that put a lot of effort into winning their games. However if they were a loyalist organized unit conquering planets for a singular faction "keeping the borders alive" than they would be fine with you. I don't smell bias at all.

Edited by DarklightCA, 27 May 2016 - 08:07 PM.

[Danjo San]

DarklightCA, on 27 May 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

The only difference between KCom and most Merc units is that one kicks your *** as a loyalist and one does so as a merc. Your entire comment confirms this because your problems as you stated don't lie with large loyalists units that "keep the border alive" but successful merc units that play the game as PGI intended and that's somehow their fault.

I fail to see how Merc units switching contracts in some way effects your recruiting. Obviously the fact you can't conquer planets has no baring on your actual inability to conquer a planet despite smaller units than yourself effectively doing so. It's not the larger loyalist units holding you back either.

It's the pesky larger merc units that have their tags everywhere simply because they are a large unit that contract switches and not at all due to the fact they are organized units that put a lot of effort into winning their games. However if they were a loyalist organized unit conquering planets for a singular faction "keeping the borders alive" than they would be fine with you. I don't smell bias at all.

Basically what you are saying if you are a casual player in a casual team. Stay out of FW or join a mega cluster if you want to see your tag on the map... no? Then look at the average match per player acvording to the leaderboard. While kcom has someting over 170 matches per player even the larger house units rank in lower. Now consider being a average bloke with wife and kids and a job that has only a 2-3 hours in the evening to drop and possibly can not do this every day. Just your normal Joe. He does not want to fool around with large groups, he enjoys being in a small family of a team feeling no obligations to have to meet set training times or follow orders coordinated in a forum. Someone just playing the game for what it is. A game. Now his real life leaves him with 2 hours of playtime before the ceasefire hits. Unfortunately he plays in a timezone behind the large house unit holding the border alive. They have been dropping and fighting there for the last two hours with 1-2 full dropships and will continue until ceasefire to ensure to take the planet. 2 hours ideal match distribution are 4 Matches, given the enemy shows up on time. Average Joe get his buddies that come online around the same time as they also have jobs and wives and kids to form a group. They get their team ready and going, and you know it takes a little bit of time until everyone has readied up. Ready set go. Wait... wait... wait... fight. Win. Wait... wait... wait. Fight lose. Wait... wait... wait. Fight! Win ceasefire. 3 Matches ... quickplay until ceasefire is over. Wait... wait... wait... wait... wait... ghostdrop wait... wait... wait... wait... ghostdrop. bedtime... Joe then thinks to himself. Either I leave my group and join the mega cluster and then will have the illusion that my time actually counted or stay with my friends but sacrifice the incentive ever doing impact on a planet where the main force is spread out over multiple timezones earlier than you and can be dropping on that planet for hours because their jobs finish hours earlier and their kids go to bed hours earlier. Next time the team meets joe says lets play quickplay today it does not matter if we play FW we will never get a tag or any further rewards than just bashing in a couple of mechs... this way at least we can have more than 3 matches before we have to go to bed because of our jobs....
So yeah it's average Joe's fault for playing casualy and not being in a mega cluster and how dare he not recruit his team to a mega cluster. With more than 1 tag in his faction home maybe he'd stay and play FW even if it meant he is not likely to get a tag. There is still hope to do so. Without hope - No incentive. Tell you what I only hear complains from the larger units saying I want to destroy their community and drive their friends away. By all that I am saying divide the Unit into multiple subdivions with more tags. More tags more variety on the map more "illusion" for the casuals to come play. Large mono clusters destroy that illusion. And once more to make it clear I have no problem with getting my *** wiped by Kcom or Evil I very much respect them they hold a small group of actives together and play a excellent game and not once did i see them repetadly taunt the enemy or even insulting them like I have seen from another EU-Merc company, who I will not mention here.

[Contrex]

Big Units have big impact: 54 minutes waiting time is the title of this thread.

Some guys asked for a solution, smaller units are a solution.


There are plenty of small units with the same win/ lose ratio as 228 or MS, but you barely see a tag on a planet. THIS is a mathematical proof that big units DO have impact. If you say only 20 % of 228 are playing FW you are just lying.

[Armando]

Danjo San, on 27 May 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

Now consider being a average bloke with wife and kids and a job that has only a 2-3 hours in the evening to drop and possibly can not do this every day. Just your normal Joe. He does not want to fool around with large groups, he enjoys being in a small family of a team feeling no obligations to have to meet set training times or follow orders coordinated in a forum. Someone just playing the game for what it is. A game.

What you are essentially saying is, you don't want to put in the time, energy, or effort to find/create at unit, or train as a unit...BUT...you still want to be able to get the same rewards as those who do. Gottcha, I am SURE that PGI will get RIGHT ON THAT. /rollseyes.

Do you get mad at people at the office who get promoted for working longer, harder, and get better results than you do too, or does your sense of "I am entitled, I should get what I want without putting in the work" only extend to gaming?

Edited by Armando, 28 May 2016 - 04:26 AM.

[DarklightCA]

Contrex, on 27 May 2016 - 11:12 PM, said:

Big Units have big impact: 54 minutes waiting time is the title of this thread.

Some guys asked for a solution, smaller units are a solution.


There are plenty of small units with the same win/ lose ratio as 228 or MS, but you barely see a tag on a planet. THIS is a mathematical proof that big units DO have impact. If you say only 20 % of 228 are playing FW you are just lying.

No, skilled units have a big impact that has nothing to do with size. The fact KCom has more map presence than majority of the units while SWOL one of the biggest units in the game has very little should be a good indication of that. There are a lot of small units with planets of their own on the leaderboards so don't ******** me.

[Contrex]

Read once more.

I make it easy for you.

Unit X with active 40 members has 3 wins 1 lose. = wl ratio 3:1
Unit 228 has active 400 members 300 wins 100 loses = wl ratio 3:1

Unit X has no impact but is as good as 228.
But 228 is big. so you see their tags.
Thats math.

(pls dont start complaining about tags and rewards or what ever. I dont care about tags or rewards, i just use them to proofe! -
and i dont cry against MS or 228 in special. I just use them as an example. Maybe because most cryingposts in thread are wirtten by MS or 228 members, who simply dont want to understand simple math.)

Kcom is not compareable.
They have 7:1 wl . So every kcom member is double as worthy as a 228 member. Iam not mentioning kcom or evil because they are no problem. They are just super strong. Thats no problem, thats just as it should be.

[Danjo San]

Contrex, on 28 May 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

Read once more.

I make it easy for you.

Unit X with active 40 members has 3 wins 1 lose. = wl ratio 3:1
Unit 228 has active 400 members 300 wins 100 loses = wl ratio 3:1

Unit X has no impact but is as good as 228.
But 228 is big. so you see their tags.
Thats math.

(pls dont start complaining about tags and rewards or what ever. I dont care about tags or rewards, i just use them to proofe! -
and i dont cry against MS or 228 in special. I just use them as an example. Maybe because most cryingposts in thread are wirtten by MS or 228 members, who simply dont want to understand simple math.)

Kcom is not compareable.
They have 7:1 wl . So every kcom member is double as worthy as a 228 member. Iam not mentioning kcom or evil because they are no problem. They are just super strong. Thats no problem, thats just as it should be.

Contrex forget it, they fail to see the truth

[Contrex]

But its just simple math.... how cant they get it!

Other suggestion. PGI should show in the leaderboard how many different people joined the FW. Then they can prove their point or we can ours.
IF ms or 228 have more then 50% people taking part in fw, they cant deny their impact on the game anymore and should have no problem to get reduced.