43 replies to this topic

[GreyNovember]

Not totally unrelated to the Kodiak, but this spurred the thought.

I think I can safely assume that nobody actually takes CW seriously; and those that do are in the minority that are willing to put up with those wait times, with groups that require that level of coordination.

Assuming most of us who still play the game, more often than not do quick solo/group drops, what's the point of asking whether clan XLs are OP versus IS XLs, or IS Quirks are stupidly out of control compared to clan quirks? There's more, I'm sure, but I lost track of what's making people have an aneurysm this week.

Since CW is the only place the faction distinction is at all important, and given the low population, I'm seeing it similar to those who want a stock mode, or a pre-3050-something tech base. Like, that'd be neat I guess, but would probably end up in the same vein as CW ( Curious for about 2-3 days, then people ditch once they have to wait without any real incentive. )

[FupDup]

Faction balance is still desired in the Pug and Premade queues because many of us don't want a small subset of the game's gundams to dominate everywhere.

[Snowbluff]

FupDup, on 18 May 2016 - 08:20 PM, said:

Faction balance is still desired in the Pug and Premade queues because many of us don't want a small subset of the game's gundams to dominate everywhere.

This. The mechs are supposed to be reasonably balanced to a 1 to 1 power for general play.

[-Vompo-]

And there are players who still play faction warfare.
Just look at the leaderboards.

[STEF_]

Yea, what Fup said.
Yesterday I tried to point out in every Kodiak thread that the issue is not the Kodiak (which is a good mech, and clan truly needed a good assault) ....but all other lonely assaults (and sub-par mechs) that stand in the dark corner of the garage.

And the list is very and too much large.

[GreyNovember]

FupDup, on 18 May 2016 - 08:20 PM, said:

Faction balance is still desired in the Pug and Premade queues because many of us don't want a small subset of the game's gundams to dominate everywhere.

That... that isn't the case now?

[Revis Volek]

GreyNovember, on 18 May 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

That... that isn't the case now?

You also have a FACTION PLAY part of this game that is trying to exist, if one side is flat out better then whats the fun in that.

But to answer your question, not it isn't really. We have about 1/2 to 2/3rds of the mechs id say are viable to somewhat viable but the outlines like the SPD 5K, the Vindicator and even mechs like the Quickdraw still dont quite stack up in the balance we have right now. Rescale will hopefully change a good amount of these issue but some new ones may arise.


They are lucky to get the scraps left over from the bigger more powerful mechs feeding lol.

[TheArisen]

Why does balance matter in any game?

[C E Dwyer]

Why a Duck ?

[STEF_]

TheArisen, on 19 May 2016 - 12:43 AM, said:

Why does balance matter in any game?

Because I, and I imagine many others, am bored with this: all mechs are good to have fun, but if you want to have a good ride you must choose among a small bunch of mechs per class.

[visionGT4]

3 types of player

• Adults with the mental age of 12 demanding that their clan mech should be superior because Lore.
  
• The types who for some reason seem to think that a battletech game should be 100% competition focused
  
• Adults at the stage of life who want to play a modern battletech game as a break from real life responsibilities.

Balance means totally different things depending on which of the above you subscribe to:

• easy mode
  
• bland mechs & weapons so 'superior skill' is the deciding factor
  
• cool mechs ej4cul4ting pewpew and dakka

Edited by visionGT4, 19 May 2016 - 01:17 AM.

[zagibu]

It wouldn't matter to me if I could play IS vs. IS in quick play.

[STEF_]

zagibu, on 19 May 2016 - 01:27 AM, said:

It wouldn't matter to me if I could play IS vs. IS in quick play.

I did it for a month and it's been a lot of fun in Marik attacking the Fedrats.
But you know what? Even there ppl uses a small bunch of good mechs, while 70-80% of other poor unfortunate mechs still stand there in the dark and dusty corner of the garage.

Balance is not all about IS vs Clan.

[SmokeGuar]

Faction based balance is simply wrong way to look at current situation.

What needs to balance is newer and less capable players vs Tier zero players, specially when those are on IS side.
Reason being all new mechs that IS side has gotten since last fall. There are now so many one shot, one kill mechs, it ruins game for lots of players. That results directly low population on FW side.

Solution would be giving armor and structure buffs for less capabable pilots and enegy nerfs for experts, say +20 - 0 % buffs and -20 - 0 % nerfs. Stats are now availabe both on PUG side as well as FW side, should be easy.

Most curious thing, why IS boats get buffs when they dont carry XL? Why not tie buff to engine and not chassis?

[Lugh]

Snowbluff, on 18 May 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

This. The mechs are supposed to be reasonably balanced to a 1 to 1 power for general play.

No. No they are not. The mechs are SUPPOSED to show a technological progression from Concept A, which didn't work so good, to Concept X which works REALLY well, all within a tightly controlled timeline of progression.

Mechwarrior online players are suffering from the mistaken thinking that if they are in Tank with a 20mm gun ala a flak panzer designed for AA duty, they should absolutely be able to kill a top of the line German Tiger II from 1945, because it is totally fair that a tank that tanks a little over 3 days to build should be able to destroyer a tank that takes 2-4 weeks to build, has 40 tons more armor and a gun that is also 4 times as large.

If you are in a Jeep with a machine gun to scout, you should not be killing Tiger IIs with it.

Why there are not penetration values to sizes of lasers and auto cannons I cannot fathom. Armor doesn't mean HPs. Armor is the plating need to be penetrated to damage something that has value.

This is where just about every mechwarrior game has gone wrong. If you will be fighting mechs that have 100mm of armor and bring small lasers that can only penetrate 40mm of armor, you are going to be a REALLY long time trying to ablate that plate to get to something that 'makes a difference'.

The dumbing down to HPs ruins much of what could be a far more in depth damage system that had Interesting consequences. Damaged gyros preventing you from turning to the right, ammo feed belts severed and needing repair, leg gyro lock ups for reductions in speed and so on.

Instead Weee 40 hit points done.

[FupDup]

GreyNovember, on 18 May 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

That... that isn't the case now?

My post didn't state the current balance, it just stated a broad ideal goal. Our current progress towards that goal was irrelevant in my post.

[FaithBombCRNA]

FupDup, on 18 May 2016 - 08:20 PM, said:

Faction balance is still desired in the Pug and Premade queues because many of us don't want a small subset of the game's gundams to dominate everywhere.

What's a Gundam? I don't speak Japanese, sorry.

[Weeny Machine]

Stefka Kerensky, on 18 May 2016 - 09:02 PM, said:

Yea, what Fup said.
Yesterday I tried to point out in every Kodiak thread that the issue is not the Kodiak (which is a good mech, and clan truly needed a good assault) ....but all other lonely assaults (and sub-par mechs) that stand in the dark corner of the garage.

And the list is very and too much large.

This applies not just to assaults. There was a power creep. Just look at the Huggin which isn't used anymore. Oh wait, today I saw one. It was like seeing a white stag or something like that

[FupDup]

Lugh, on 19 May 2016 - 05:12 AM, said:

Why there are not penetration values to sizes of lasers and auto cannons I cannot fathom. Armor doesn't mean HPs. Armor is the plating need to be penetrated to damage something that has value.

This is where just about every mechwarrior game has gone wrong. If you will be fighting mechs that have 100mm of armor and bring small lasers that can only penetrate 40mm of armor, you are going to be a REALLY long time trying to ablate that plate to get to something that 'makes a difference'.

The dumbing down to HPs ruins much of what could be a far more in depth damage system that had Interesting consequences.

Instead Weee 40 hit points done.

Armor representing health points isn't a simplification of the Mechwarrior PC games, it's a carryover from the fact that BATTLETECH itself uses this kind of armor system.

Also, the lore explanation is that it's not just generic modern tank plating, it's ablative armor. This means that the outer layers of the armor are designed to explode outwards when hit, which deflects some of the force away from the unit carrying it. Thus, high-powered attacks like Gauss Rifles can be survived by mechs. Meanwhile, lower-powered attacks like Medium Lasers can still hit with enough force to cause the outer armor layers to explode off.

It's also a nice equalizer in balancing terms, because otherwise the only way to be competitive in the game would be to boat the absolute biggest guns on the absolute biggest mechs at all times, and every other possible tactic would be completely useless.


An Atlas mech that was plated with modern-day generic tank armor would probably die instantly to 1 or 2 Gauss Rifle slugs to the center torso.

Edited by FupDup, 19 May 2016 - 07:53 AM.

[Snowbluff]

Actually, modern armor schemes seem much more practical overal than the ones you get on Battlemechs, which tend to be technologically backwards in a lot of ways. I mean, they have windows. WINDOWS. Neurohelmets weigh more and seem to do less than similar technology today.

Lugh, on 19 May 2016 - 05:12 AM, said:

No. No they are not. The mechs are SUPPOSED to show a technological progression from Concept A, which didn't work so good, to Concept X which works REALLY well, all within a tightly controlled timeline of progression.

This is probably the worst thing I have ever had the pleasure of reading. Someone seems to have forgotten that this is a competitive video game, that makes abstractions for the purpose of streamlining, which is based on a TT game that makes abstractions for the purposes of streamlining play. Basically half of what you have written here forgets this, and the other half is off topic complaining about this series not being "milsim" enough.

There are not an jeeps in this game, either.

FaithBombCRNA, on 19 May 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

What's a Gundam? I don't speak Japanese, sorry.

Teh uberz! D:

Edited by Snowbluff, 19 May 2016 - 07:54 AM.