285 replies to this topic

[Randy Poffo]

All this is pie in the sky, at any rate; we can debate what went wrong and what the root of the problem was, but the book has effectively been closed by PGI and no real solution is possible under the parameters they're running. Russ as much as said, during the town hall, that they had no real intention of proceeding with solo q anyway. And his answer with respect to the players who wanted that q was just that "perhaps this is not the game for you".

But in a sense your worries seem really to be related to competition in the short term. And if that's the case the door is open to a different sort of "solution", which is to just remove the ability of non-unit players to participate. It certainly won't shorten the q times, but it shouldn't lengthen them that much either unless a large number of units are deliberately avoiding tough matches. And the games you actually got would be of better quality, which everyone *claims* to want.

I don't think this sort of solution is really a good thing because the root problem is that the whole thing is dead and rotting if you don't have a better way to grow the population. But it would solve most of your immediate issues and it might actually be considered by PGI, unlike any of the admittedly better suggestions here. Truth is I think there's *tons* of ways to make things better. Even the implementation of solo Q they had could have made things better long term, with some minor tweaks. But none of the ways of actually making things better long-term will be accepted.

[MischiefSC]

Commander A9, on 21 May 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

I certainly hope the rest of the Mechwarrior community doesn't blame MercStar for the flaws in Community Warfare...

I mean, how could they? And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

Okay. Here's an important lesson in human behavior for you.

People have an inherent sense of fair play. Broken or poorly designed systems are very frustrating and it doesn't take much competency in a subject to find flaws even if you can't figure out a solution.

We have a strong tendency to connect people who are advantaged by a broken system with the broken system itself. So while MS is not responsible for the broken mechanics PGI created you have been advantaged by them. Also tend to show up and do what you want, either ignoring or disregarding the 'locals' who are trying to "fix" (by working within) the broken system instead of leveraging it to their advantage.

Most people in FW likely do blame MS to some greater or lesser degree at this point. I've sat in dozens and dozens of TS at this point, every faction and a lot of units. While there are people who logically recognize the difference the overall consensus of "It's sorta your fault for exploiting it" opinion is pretty endemic.

You don't need to explain the realities of MS to me and most wouldn't care at this point. You guys have profited the most, by far, from the broken system PGI created. That's about as damning as it gets.

I voice of reason it up as much as I can but most people don't voice their opinions here but get in any TS, any faction, mention MS and you'll hear it.

It's a lot easier to tear someone down than fix something that's broken. When you can't be productive you can at least blame someone, right?

Randy Poffo, on 21 May 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

All this is pie in the sky, at any rate; we can debate what went wrong and what the root of the problem was, but the book has effectively been closed by PGI and no real solution is possible under the parameters they're running. Russ as much as said, during the town hall, that they had no real intention of proceeding with solo q anyway. And his answer with respect to the players who wanted that q was just that "perhaps this is not the game for you".

But in a sense your worries seem really to be related to competition in the short term. And if that's the case the door is open to a different sort of "solution", which is to just remove the ability of non-unit players to participate. It certainly won't shorten the q times, but it shouldn't lengthen them that much either unless a large number of units are deliberately avoiding tough matches. And the games you actually got would be of better quality, which everyone *claims* to want.

I don't think this sort of solution is really a good thing because the root problem is that the whole thing is dead and rotting if you don't have a better way to grow the population. But it would solve most of your immediate issues and it might actually be considered by PGI, unlike any of the admittedly better suggestions here. Truth is I think there's *tons* of ways to make things better. Even the implementation of solo Q they had could have made things better long term, with some minor tweaks. But none of the ways of actually making things better long-term will be accepted.

IMO a better solution is remove tagging worlds completely. You drop on a planet, participate in 10 winning matches you get the same rewards as everyone else who helped win 10 matches there. Rewards based entirely on participation and winning not on unit membership.

This motivates everyone, unit or solo, to drive a win and use teamwork. you are sharing all rewards evenly based on what you did.

With combined queue per front you remove most the premade vs pug issue. Best solution I can think of.

Edited by MischiefSC, 21 May 2016 - 08:31 PM.

[Randy Poffo]

Commander A9, on 21 May 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

I certainly hope the rest of the Mechwarrior community doesn't blame MercStar for the flaws in Community Warfare...

I mean, how could they? And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

MercStar's only really responsible for its own problems for the most part, not anyone else's. That is to say, *obviously* if you have a large enough chunk of the player population concentrated in one bundle of units that move together, you're going to occasionally get situations like this where you're not going to be able to find matches.

There are things that MercStar and other big units could do to get more matches if they wanted to, including not faction-hopping en masse. But if they'd rather live with the wait times then I would say that's nobody's business but theirs.

[Armando]

FallingAce, on 21 May 2016 - 04:57 PM, said:

Funny how the "we" known as MS joined Jade Falcon, the number 1 faction in the game. If MS really cared about the game they would of took their shiny new Kodiaks and signed up to play for, oh i don't know, ghostbear maybe? A faction that needs help. Not one that was doing fine without them.

Not sure if you missed it, but [-MS-] already took a two week contract (when normally on sign up for one week) with Smoke Jags...who were arguably more 'needy' of assistance, pushed the faction south at the same rate as Falcon the entire time....when we left to play a one week contract in our IS mechs....planets lost as quick as they were taken. There is something to be said about working for a faction that has a chance keeping planets we capture for them.

That said, who knows what faction the [-MS-] world tour will hit....could be Clan, could be IS....we do get around. /wink

[ccrider]

I for one hope the units who went clan this week stay a bit; tons of matches for us, faction warfare without an event. We've been having a blast. O7 to all our clanners opponents.

[Adamski]

MischiefSC, on 21 May 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

I absolutely do not want crossing over. That creates both skill and behavior expectations in both queues. I loved the matches after the queue split - best pugging in FW I ever had. Majority of players on the unit queue teamed up and played as a team, it was awesome.

Better option is just put the content in as QP maps/modes but PGI won't because it would be work. So instead we do unit members for "I want to play in a team" and "I do wut I want" gets solo queue. Tons Of unit members who like playing to a team pug and pug often - largely have to because of the existing system. Trying to force them into scrub queue will just mean only big units and a handful of TS diehards will play in FW.

Just what do you think the skill / behavior expectations would be in the Solo / Group queue, and how would they differ from a Unit / Non queue?

[MischiefSC]

Adamski, on 21 May 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

Just what do you think the skill / behavior expectations would be in the Solo / Group queue, and how would they differ from a Unit / Non queue?

If you mix popations there are none. Solos play like solos when playing with groups. I can say that when queue was split pugging in group queue was head and shoulders better.

Plus anything that involves my having to play in solo queue if i don't group up first isn't going to happen.

[p4r4g0n]

MischiefSC, on 21 May 2016 - 08:28 PM, said:

-snip-

IMO a better solution is remove tagging worlds completely. You drop on a planet, participate in 10 winning matches you get the same rewards as everyone else who helped win 10 matches there. Rewards based entirely on participation and winning not on unit membership.

This motivates everyone, unit or solo, to drive a win and use teamwork. you are sharing all rewards evenly based on what you did.

-snip-

QFT. Would add that it would work even better if there was a recurring income stream for a limited duration from participating in a successful defence / offence per attack phase. I saw a hint of how having a tagged planet with its MC rewards influences a unit's decision to stay in faction and am guessing it would do the same if similar benefits were received by players who helped in the attack/defence.

As it stands, still not seeing any reason to care what happens to the little dots on the map or how the various factions are doing in FP as a solo / small unit player other than the LP /Mercenary rewards under Phase 3

Edited by p4r4g0n, 21 May 2016 - 09:57 PM.

[Adamski]

MischiefSC, on 21 May 2016 - 09:09 PM, said:

If you mix popations there are none. Solos play like solos when playing with groups. I can say that when queue was split pugging in group queue was head and shoulders better.

Plus anything that involves my having to play in solo queue if i don't group up first isn't going to happen.

You really have so few friends that you find it that hard to find a person to play with, and want to impose the ****** system that PGI has to sustain your playstyle?

Or maybe answer my question so that I can figure out just what it is that you think separating FW into Solo / Group would cause that didn't happen when PGI split it to Unit / Non and you had so much fun.

[MischiefSC]

Adamski, on 21 May 2016 - 09:20 PM, said:

You really have so few friends that you find it that hard to find a person to play with, and want to impose the ****** system that PGI has to sustain your playstyle?

Or maybe answer my question so that I can figure out just what it is that you think separating FW into Solo / Group would cause that didn't happen when PGI split it to Unit / Non and you had so much fun.

I have over 1k names in my list.Not everyone is in FW all the time though. Try playing on off hours. Again, most the population in every queue is people pugging - however most those pugs are tagged, without having put the 30 minutes into going with a premade group it can often be.

Also, again, it's really simple. If you want to play with solos with no teamwork then be a solo. If you want to play as a team and play teamwork, play in unit queue.

You're the one who wants to force unit players into Solo queue if they don't spend the time to build a premade. That's the ****** system. The only thing you're proposing is that my having less options than I do now and trying to force more people to play in the solo queue is 'better', all while screwing the unit queue by requiring everyone to not only build a premade but that it has to be 3-9 players or a 12man as a 10 or 11 can not be pugged. Or spent more time hunting around building a group.

The only thing at all your idea does is add more wasted time and hassle to playing with people who want to play as a team and trying to force more people into filling the Rambo queue which was literally unable to sustain itself. If people had joined attack queue it would have called Freelancers, there were more tools for solo players to have made that system work than you're offering units in your system but they were unwilling to put in the effort. So now everyone else has to go through extra effort or get thrown into Rambo queue in the hopes it'll add enough team players to actually take the initiative to start matches for them?

No. I do not consider a system that complicates the already terrible system for unit players in order to force more people into Solo queue to be a fix.

[TheClanReject]

Kwea, on 21 May 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

Nope. It was basic math. There was already a ton of waiting, way more than other games, even before the split. Splitting the queues when there was already a population problem was idiotic. It was then, and would be now, which is why they reversed it.

Also...what part of "CW is endgame content designed FOR groups so the big bad groups will stop playing in pug queue?" is so freaking hard to understand. Why should it need to be watered down for people who prefer solo queue tactics and builds?

Too bad all the groups went to the same faction huh..

[Adamski]

MischiefSC, on 21 May 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

I have over 1k names in my list.Not everyone is in FW all the time though. Try playing on off hours. Again, most the population in every queue is people pugging - however most those pugs are tagged, without having put the 30 minutes into going with a premade group it can often be.

Also, again, it's really simple. If you want to play with solos with no teamwork then be a solo. If you want to play as a team and play teamwork, play in unit queue.

You're the one who wants to force unit players into Solo queue if they don't spend the time to build a premade. That's the ****** system. The only thing you're proposing is that my having less options than I do now and trying to force more people to play in the solo queue is 'better', all while screwing the unit queue by requiring everyone to not only build a premade but that it has to be 3-9 players or a 12man as a 10 or 11 can not be pugged. Or spent more time hunting around building a group.

The only thing at all your idea does is add more wasted time and hassle to playing with people who want to play as a team and trying to force more people into filling the Rambo queue which was literally unable to sustain itself. If people had joined attack queue it would have called Freelancers, there were more tools for solo players to have made that system work than you're offering units in your system but they were unwilling to put in the effort. So now everyone else has to go through extra effort or get thrown into Rambo queue in the hopes it'll add enough team players to actually take the initiative to start matches for them?

No. I do not consider a system that complicates the already terrible system for unit players in order to force more people into Solo queue to be a fix.

I guess I'm not getting the idea across then:
Solo Queue: Solo players, limited to 2 players from the same unit
Group Queue: Groups of 2-10, and 12

The players that always drop solo and never work with the team, are no longer in the Group queue, and facing premades.
Premade groups no longer have to face skittles to stomp, and instead can look forward to decent battles

I didn't say that 2 man groups would be excluded from the group queue, just that more than 2 players from the same unit cannot drop solo in the solo queue, this is to prevent sync dropping.

And the "Rambo Queue" as you call it, would have been sustaining, if PGI hadn't double split it into Loyalist Rambos and Freelancer Rambos, while simultaneously excluding solo players from casual units that don't join premades.

And stop saying that everyone is excluded from the group queue unless they build a premade. All they have to do is group with 1 other person, either through Faction Chat, LFG Tool, Unit Chat, or out of game Chat / Grouping systems. Even my unit is frequently able to do that, and we only have 10 active players total, and we are spread across all the timezones.

The LFG Tool works great, when players have a reason to use it, remember the last Tukayyid battle where all the 12 mans kept jumping to the front of the queue because any time a single player left the queue, it would reshuffle all of the other solo players to the back of the line? The Solo players learned to use the LFG Tool really quick, and it was very well populated during that event.

[DarthHias]

I wanted to escape the event QP and play some FW.
Impossible. Several 12men sitting in the attack queue, nothing to do. Thanks.

[A Shoddy Rental Mech]

DarthHias, on 22 May 2016 - 01:22 AM, said:

I wanted to escape the event QP and play some FW.
Impossible. Several 12men sitting in the attack queue, nothing to do. Thanks.

not much fun when everybody joins the New York Yankees and there's no Boston Red Sox to beat up on.

[Danjo San]

Armando, on 21 May 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

Fair is fair right? 30 or 300...how about you and your 30 friends split up, spread to the winds, and stop playing with each other?

Pick the 2 guys in your unit, pray they are always going to be online / playing the same time you are going to be online / playing and say goodbye forever to the 27 other guys in your unit.

Does this still sound like a good idea to you? (If it does, I question how many people in your unit are really your 'friends', or if you understand what a 'team' is).

lol... like you really have 300 "friends" spanning 5 countries Worldwide that play with you all the time...
And to be fair, I have been kicking inactives out on a regular basis.
So uhmm no, My Team is active, they are online when I am online.
And btw. My Unit has friends in other Units whom we drop with together on a regular basis. Active Players in a Team and Friends do not have to be the same thing. Heck we even share our Teamspeak Server with a befriended Unit... We hold events together, we drop together, we fight each other ...
So no, I don't get your point as what I suggested works clearly for me

[Czarr]

Armando, on 21 May 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

Not sure if you missed it, but [-MS-] already took a two week contract (when normally on sign up for one week) with Smoke Jags...who were arguably more 'needy' of assistance, pushed the faction south at the same rate as Falcon the entire time....when we left to play a one week contract in our IS mechs....planets lost as quick as they were taken. There is something to be said about working for a faction that has a chance keeping planets we capture for them.

That said, who knows what faction the [-MS-] world tour will hit....could be Clan, could be IS....we do get around. /wink

yes your former planets in smoke jag are now the new "Empire of Cobra Command". We slithered in there, and struck un-noticed, like a cobra

thanks.

Edited by Czarr, 22 May 2016 - 06:39 AM.

[MechPorn]

If the bigger units are unhappy with the FP due to long waits, lack of a player base and so on....split up your units to make a better ezperience for yourselves and the community.

[Commander A9]

Might I ask how exactly the "broken system" of Community Warfare is being "exploited" by MercStar who are "benefiting" off of it?

Because I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Each night, we organize guys into a dropship, pick a planet, drop, and play. Rinse and repeat. How the hell are we doing something any different than what others do for Community Warfare?

Let me ask you this: The New York Yankees won 27 World Series championships throughout their history-did the commissioners change the rules of baseball because the Yankees were "too good?"

No, they didn't.

So how the hell can you pin the blame on MercStar for the issues you are facing?

Or better yet, why don't we stop playing Community Warfare, form up in 12-mans, and go smash the quickplay games? Would you like that?

Edited by Commander A9, 22 May 2016 - 07:37 AM.

[MechPorn]

The New York Yankees did draft and put into reserve 30% of the viable players, also they did not force the other teams into playing two or more games at once becuase they had superior numbersband could field them.

[Helsbane]

Mercstar benefits from a lot of things (teamwork, coordination, excellent gunnery, dedicated drop callers, etc), but to say we're benefitting from a broken system in some way is horsesh*t. Please, by all means, leave your video and screenshots here as evidence. I for one would love to see exactly what you consider exploitation, mainly so I can laugh.