121 replies to this topic

[Madddog]

Nebfer your canon tips seems to be right on the money, you have a source for that or is it your generallization?

Sadly the novels have many inconsistencies from one to the other some most minor, some bigger. When that happens i usually take the writer with more experience in BTech/more to do with the overall timeline to be right. Something that always got me was do mechs have two joysticks (one for each arm) or one? I've read the control set up in so many different ways it makes my head spin.

[Burnsidhe]

Some mechs are set up with two joysticks. Some with one.

You'll find the "one joystick" descriptions of 'Mech cockpits are much more common after Virtual World Entertainment built the Battlepods for Battletech arcade simulations. The developers quickly discovered from feedback and observation, that having two joysticks with two different targeting reticules was disorienting to the players. They fairly quickly re-engineered the system to remove the second targeting joystick.

Basically, what sounded like a neat idea on paper turned out to be inefficient in practice.

Edited by Burnsidhe, 16 July 2012 - 01:38 PM.

[Xigunder Blue]

Ummmm...I thought Streak missile systems were not used in the IS til 3050. Also SRM 2's might be the only SRMs we get to start in 3049. 4's and 6s may not be in at launch. Just sayin....

[Sidra]

Just give me Enhanced LRM with Follow the leader warheads and ill be happy

[Madddog]

Burnsidhe, on 16 July 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Some mechs are set up with two joysticks. Some with one.

You'll find the "one joystick" descriptions of 'Mech cockpits are much more common after Virtual World Entertainment built the Battlepods for Battletech arcade simulations. The developers quickly discovered from feedback and observation, that having two joysticks with two different targeting reticules was disorienting to the players. They fairly quickly re-engineered the system to remove the second targeting joystick.

Basically, what sounded like a neat idea on paper turned out to be inefficient in practice.

thanks that makes sense, something that always had me confused

Xigunder Blue, on 16 July 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Ummmm...I thought Streak missile systems were not used in the IS til 3050. Also SRM 2's might be the only SRMs we get to start in 3049. 4's and 6s may not be in at launch. Just sayin....

in the current timeline canon wise the streak srm 2 is already available. im sure all the regular srms will be in at launch.

[Nebfer]

Madddog, on 16 July 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

Nebfer your canon tips seems to be right on the money, you have a source for that or is it your generallization?

Sadly the novels have many inconsistencies from one to the other some most minor, some bigger. When that happens i usually take the writer with more experience in BTech/more to do with the overall timeline to be right. Something that always got me was do mechs have two joysticks (one for each arm) or one? I've read the control set up in so many different ways it makes my head spin.

Mostly with experience, info on what is canon I linked at the end of the post.

[Nazraith]

I am not seeing what the difficulty is here.

Streaks SRMs have advanced targeting that ensures ALL of the missiles hit the target or it does not fire.

Regular SRMs are semi-guided which causes some of them to miss on occasion, but they are still guided. Some or all of the missiles will hit if fired while locked on.

Reference: Classic Battletech TechManual pg.230 - "The Star League development of the streak SRM missile system was a significant enhancement of the existent missile launcher technology, incorporating a kind of "smart override" feature in the targeting and firing mechanisms."

Notice the reference to adding a "smart override" feature to the targeting and firing mechanisms of existing launchers.

SRMs have targeting - fact
Streak SRMs have advanced targeting - fact

Streak 4s and 6s will not be available until 3058 when the Draconis Combine starts the produce them based on Clan tech.

A Streak SRM will not fire until every tube in the launcher has a "hard lock" guaranteeing a hit on target.

A regular SRM will fire with no lock, which might miss entirely, or fire when locked to hit with some or all of the missiles that comprise the launcher.

I hope this helps clear some things up.

Naz

[Madddog]

Yep the reason i made the poll both sides seem to feel very strongly on this, interesting to note that scince the start the choices have been very close but its a topic that causes strong feelings to almost the point of flaming in cases lol.
I considered the case closed on the first page (actually pretty sure of my opinion to begin with) but the debate continues.

Edited by Madddog, 16 July 2012 - 04:27 PM.

[Kanos]

Here's a better question for all of you, why do you think table top is the definitive truth on what is canon or not when the people that wrote the books explicitly stated that it was a simplified version of what they wanted dumbed down enough and adjusted to allow a simple and easy game that could be played table top?

If anything I'd say the books are more canon then table tops 'rules', and I'd place solaris rules before the incredibly simplified normal rules. They came out with the table top version because computers just weren't there to make the type of mech simulation game that they wanted.

Edited by Kanos, 16 July 2012 - 04:33 PM.

[Nazraith]

That would be becuase the TT game came first. It was a rule book for TT games called Battledroids published in1984. It was later converted to BattleTech and expanded. The first book was called "The Price of Glory" which was published in October of 1987. http://www.sarna.net..._Price_of_Glory

"BattleTech ("BT" for short) is a science fiction universe and media franchise. Originally conceived in 1984 as a fictional background setting for a futuristic wargame, it was since expanded into an intricate fictional universe by various authors through a multitude of media." http://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleTech


Naz

[Scytale]

And just in case someone debates canonicity of the games:

From sarna:
"Computer games are explicitly excluded from the list of products that contribute straight Canon to the BattleTech universe while at the same time it was stated that the IP owners are "not in total denial about these sources either"; it has also been stated that fluff from certain official, licensed products (namely certain computer games including those produced by FASA) can be assumed to be part of the shared universe as long as it is not directly contradicted, and makes sense."

This looks to me like it says "if in doubt, games are not canon."

[Graphite]

Nazraith, on 16 July 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

That would be becuase the TT game came first. It was a rule book for TT games called Battledroids published in1984. It was later converted to BattleTech and expanded. The first book was called "The Price of Glory" which was published in October of 1987. http://www.sarna.net..._Price_of_Glory

"BattleTech ("BT" for short) is a science fiction universe and media franchise. Originally conceived in 1984 as a fictional background setting for a futuristic wargame, it was since expanded into an intricate fictional universe by various authors through a multitude of media." http://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleTech


Naz

Tada!

Can't say any clearer than Naz has.

[VanillaG]

CCC Dober, on 16 July 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

No gentlemen, you don't get free guidance because the upgrades to enable that are supposed to be paid for. Furthermore, if they would lock, they would also become susceptible to Electronic Warfare. As it stands, they are immune. Deduction: no guidance systems to jam.
Common sense. It really must be a super power >.>

Actually not so. If you look at the ECM rules, any missiles that pass through lose any bonuses on how may hit, not if they hit. I think of SRMs with how the Aim-120 works in real life. Basically the missile is given a point to fly to and when it gets there its onboard guidance system "wakes up" and tries to finds the target and catch it. Now there is an option to give it course corrections mid flight which makes sure that it is more likely to wake up in place to catch the enemy. ECM has a range of 180m so that means that onboard guidance system must arm at a distance less than that which is why Artemis and Narc lose their bonus on number of missiles that hit. So I would break down the different types like this:

• Standard SRM - no lock is needed and missiles fly to a designated point and then search for the target. If the target has moved a large amount of distance, the missles find nothing and miss.
  
• Artemis/Narc SRM - no lock is needed but the missiles receive mid course corrections so if the target stays in LoS, more missiles are able to find the target.
  
• Streak SRM - lock is required before missles are fired but all missiles hit. To me they would work something like the Javelin where missile is able to guide itself to the target all of the way with the seeker in the missile.

[Scytale]

I'd also add that sarna doesn't specifically say that LRMs lock, on the LRM page itself. But it's obvious, right? Similarly, just because the SRM page doesn't say SRMs lock doesn't mean they don't. Also, as has been said many times, but some apparently ignore this fact, there are also Streak LRMs. Does that mean regular LRMs don't lock? No. "Streak" does not imply "lock" - it implies the missiles' firing doctrine regarding whether or not lock is obtained.
Also, what VanillaG said.

[Cirran]

1604 BattleTech, Second Edition
©1985
A Dark Age has befallen mankind. Where the United Star League once reigned, five successor states now battle for control. The destruction of war has ravaged the once-flourishing worlds and left them in ruins. The advancement of technology has not only ceased, but the machines and equipment of the past cannot be produced by present-day worlds. The Succession Wars are fought over water, ancient machines, and spare-parts factories. Control of these elements will lead to final victory and the domination of known space.

BATTLETECH: The study and implementation of battlefield technology.

BATTLEMECH: Ranging in height from 7 to 15 meters and weighing 10 to 100 tons, they carry more firepower than a 20^th-century tank battalion.

MECHWARRIOR: Brave men and women who are 31^st-century knights piloting their 'Mechs into battle. Serving one of the five Houses, or in the employ of a mercenary company or bandit king, these warriors are the most respected and feared individuals in the galaxy.
Contents: 48 Full-color, stand-up playing pieces with front and back views, printed on thick cardboard. Enough BattleMech to put four companies in the field. 120 Color unit insignias, to display your BattleMech's colors in the field. 24 Plastic holders for playing pieces. 1 48-page rulebook, containing beginning, expert, and optional rules, plus 10 pages of history, background, and technical information. 2 Six-sided dice.

Now you are a MechWarrior and the time has come for you to go into battle.

------------------------------

When Battletech 2nd edition hit the street in 1985. I picked it up from a local hobby store. Paper minitures and plastic bases that were NOT hexigonal. The 48 page rule book clearly states that due to the loss of technology. SRMs and LRMs are semi guided hence why you had to role to see how many missiles hit when you hit with one.
It seems in my .4 cent opinion the debate revolves around the definition of "lock on" and "guided".
Missiles can lock on and still miss. Same with guided missiles. At this point in the time line there was still several years before rules for indirect fire, partial cover, smoke, fire and it's spread, artillery ect ect ect.

Cirran

Edited by Cirran, 24 July 2012 - 11:02 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

both lock on. the difference being that with streaks, you HAVE to havetarget lock to fire, where you can blindfire standard srms. but only streaks continue to use active targeting after launch, hence the reason that they ALL hit, whereas you must roll to see how many standard srms strike. no penalty to hit because they are tied into the mechs basic targeting system at time of launch
9much like using a rocket pod on an apache helicopter. you get target lock confirmation in your recticle, but it deoesnt actively guide them.

[Rushyo]

I don't really want to wade into the middle of this and confuse things more but I have a point of clarification:

A guidance system is not a targeting system.

If you have a targeting system and no guidance system, then you might be using indirect fire (for example artillery). If you have a guidance system and no targeting system, then you might be using a fire-and-forget heat-seeker. No lock-on, but still homing.

Basically a guidance system is what guides the missile in-flight, a targeting system is what decides what the missile's target is. You can have something that locks-on without having guidance and something that seeks out an opponent without having a lock-on. You can have both or you can have neither.

tl;dr
Saying that something has a guidance system does not mean it invokes lock-on!

Edit: I am aware many posters here are aware of the distinction, it just didn't seem to be clear to some other posters.

Edited by Rushyo, 25 July 2012 - 04:32 AM.

[Yamabushi]

Direct fire simply means that the weapon system shoots relatively flat so usually requires line of sight. Indirect fire shoots at an arc and can thus go over obstacles if the arc is high and long enough.

Guided missiles do not necessarily require a lock on. A lock is essentially a sensor tracking system that continues to follow and send position data to a weapon. This sensor can be part of the firing system such as a vehicle, part of a system used by another vehicle of same or different type or even infantry, or part of the weapon itself. A weapon can however track a target without a lock. This is typically done by a targeting system giving position data of the target to the weapon prior to firing or for just a portion of its flight. The weapon can still turn to target in such a system but will not get updated position data after the link is broken with the firing system. So, if the target is stationary and there are no obstacles the weapon has a high probability of hitting. If the target is moving then the firing system may or may not provide data about direction and speed of movement but if it does then this will assist tracking but not guarantee a hit. If the target were to change direction or speed of movement after the weapon is fired and communication with the firing system is lost then it may miss.

Self guided missiles can provide tracking data on their own while sensor guided must maintain communication with the sensor which is usually part of the firing system. Semi guided missiles do receive target data and can track a target but typically lose contact at launch or shortly thereafter and thus cannot adjust in flight to a new target position after this link is lost. Some of these use a wire to directly connect and delay losing the link until they reach the end of the wire. Others simply are programmed just prior to launch without updates but can guide themselves to the projected location.

I see SRMs as being semi guided missiles without wires or other links to update target data. Thus when fired they will track to the position they expect the target to be and can predict this location if the target maintains the same speed and direction of travel.

Dumbfire rockets have no abilty to track targets or change direction. They travel to the point of aim and explode on impact with whatever blocks their path.

SRM are not dumbfire rockets - they have some guidance and ability to turn. They just cannot receive target data in flight to adjust to new position, direction, and speed. Since they are short range this is not essential and they should be likely to hit unless the target is moving erratically or ducks behind cover.

[DerMaulwurf]

Of course normal SRMs are somewhat guided. Why else can I equip them with an Artemis IV system?

edit: Not that that is a good idea, considering the existance of Streaks, but it's possible.

Edited by DerMaulwurf, 29 September 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[Ashnod]

I believe sarna implies they can lock just only at short ranges, and can be fired before establishing a lock, while the streak launcher guarantee's they will hit and force you to wait for its lock to become complete.

Edited by Ashnod, 29 September 2012 - 01:27 PM.